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Russia invades Ukraine

Annetts key

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One strategy for the Russians would be to concentrate their occupation efforts solely on the left bank of the Dnipro/Dnieper and have the river become the de-facto frontier with Ukraine with a view to establishing this permanently in an eventual peace settlement.
However, the natural barrier of the river also frees up Ukrainian forces, which can then move to the Zaporizhzhia front with the intention of driving towards the coast of the Sea of Azov. If successful, this will spilt the Russian forces and create a new pocket of isolated Russian occupiers.
 
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Bletchleyite

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If Putin is smart and sues for peace now he might just, just get to keep Crimea.

Much as it's not great, I suspect (as does Elon Musk) that this is likely to be what brings a negotiated peace. It's bounced back and forth in the past (a bit like Alsace-Lorraine vs. Elsass-Lothringen) so it is hard to say it is purely Ukrainian. Those who say it's like conceding Kent to France miss that the island nature of the UK produces natural borders. It is probably more like conceding Berwick to an independent Scotland, or Irish reunification, neither of which I would really object to.
 

brad465

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I'm afraid the general tone of your post suggests a complete unwillingness to learn from the past. Humiliation of Germany after WW1 simply made WW2 inevitable. Similarly a modern day humiliation of Russia would simply guarantee another future conflict at some point. We may not like the way Putin has achieved, and is able to wield, power in Russia but the fact is he is the one we have to deal with, complete with his paranoia-laden view of Russia's place in the world. I'm certainly not in favour of appeasement but to reach a long-term solution requires an effort to reach a mutual understanding of the issues at hand. A gung-ho or bullying approach will not achieve that.
I think Russia's humiliation in your comparisons was the collapse of the USSR. Hitler had huge resentment at Germany's WW1 failures; Putin loathed the USSR disbanding before becoming Russia's President. One could say Germany were "humiliated" at the end of WW2, as the Allies went and occupied them for a while. Of course no-one is going to go and invade Russia, but we need to find a way for Russia to accept it's been defeated and then help them rebuild and integrate with us, something we didn't really do with Russia in the 90s. But this is not going to happen with Putin, just like it was never going to happen with Hitler (whether he commited suicide beforehand or not).
 

Shaw S Hunter

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However, the natural barrier of the river also frees up Ukrainian forces, which can then move to the Zaporizhzhia front with the intention of driving towards the coast of the Sea of Azov. If successful, this will spilt the Russian forces and create a new pocket of isolated Russian occupiers.
But this is not a new issue. If Russia is to maintain a land bridge to Crimea then in the meantime it will have to maintain its occupation of Zaporizhzhia oblast (south of the river) in advance of any agreed settlement. Giving up Kherson will allow for a redeployment of forces including, apparently, some of its better units. And I suspect there may be an institutional memory of how the Volga river provided a useful defensive barrier during the siege of Stalingrad. On the Russian side the key factor is maintaining lines of supply.
Much as it's not great, I suspect (as does Elon Musk) that this is likely to be what brings a negotiated peace. It's bounced back and forth in the past (a bit like Alsace-Lorraine vs. Elsass-Lothringen) so it is hard to say it is purely Ukrainian. Those who say it's like conceding Kent to France miss that the island nature of the UK produces natural borders. It is probably more like conceding Berwick to an independent Scotland, or Irish reunification, neither of which I would really object to.
Russia has, since the days of the Tsars, had a strategic need for access to the Black Sea including a suitable naval base. Geography means Sevastopol is really the only game in town. But the water supply issue means Crimea is almost unviable if separated from the southern half of Kherson oblast and the North Crimean Canal. As such the pre-February situation doesn't provide a long-term solution, hence Russia's invasion. From a crayonista type pov the pre-2014 boundaries made the most sense apart from the highly significant issue of Russia needing a viable naval base on the Black Sea. Perhaps the most stable long term solution would be a canal, possibly built with a degree of western support, connecting Rostov directly with the Black Sea but including whatever measures might be necessary to prevent such a waterway from freezing in winter. Think a 21st century version of the Kiel Canal.
 

Iskra

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I'm afraid the general tone of your post suggests a complete unwillingness to learn from the past. Humiliation of Germany after WW1 simply made WW2 inevitable. Similarly a modern day humiliation of Russia would simply guarantee another future conflict at some point. We may not like the way Putin has achieved, and is able to wield, power in Russia but the fact is he is the one we have to deal with, complete with his paranoia-laden view of Russia's place in the world. I'm certainly not in favour of appeasement but to reach a long-term solution requires an effort to reach a mutual understanding of the issues at hand. A gung-ho or bullying approach will not achieve that.
That's GCSE and below level history. The Paris Peace Conference actually did Germany a few favours and they just ignored the bits they didn't like anyway, humiliation was just a convenient excuse. Hitler rising to power made WW2 inevitable, and that wasn't a guaranteed outcome of the peace of WW1.

Russia can't afford to compete on the world stage, they just haven't realised it yet. And I'd argue they've already humiliated themselves. The most pressing dangers are if Putin goes full madman, lack of maintenance of the nuclear stockpile, or poor storage of nuclear weapons causing a horrific accident.
 

Cloud Strife

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That's been my fear, but I doubt it would happen. Might still be a nasty surprise waiting the Ukrainians thought.

It will take a long time to clear Kherson properly, even if Russia does withdraw. They will need to inspect everything very carefully while coming under Russian fire, and I suspect the Russians think they can do more damage by attacking Ukraine-controlled Kherson than they can do by defending there. They may also be accepting that they simply don't have the means to defend Kherson, and that it's pointless incurring huge amounts of casualties for very little strategic gain.

If I were Sergei Shoigu right now, I'd be seriously contemplating that offer of retirement in Siberia.
 

gingerheid

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Failure to learn from history would be for anyone to think they can negotiate with Putin. That's stuff of pure fantasy.
 

ainsworth74

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Geography means Sevastopol is really the only game in town.
It does? Novorossiysk is already a large port and is ice free all year round. It also has the advantage of being within Russian territory rather than occupied Ukraine. No particular reason they couldn't establish that as the main base of operations for the Black Sea Fleet.
 

Cloud Strife

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Failure to learn from history would be for anyone to think they can negotiate with Putin. That's stuff of pure fantasy.

The time to negotiate will be when Ukraine is on the door of Crimea, the Kerch Bridge is in ruins and the Black Sea Fleet is lying at the bottom of Sevastopol harbour.

We can't wipe him out either.

We can. We just need to pin Russia down in Crimea with nowhere to go, and Putin will be gone.
 

GS250

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I'm afraid the general tone of your post suggests a complete unwillingness to learn from the past. Humiliation of Germany after WW1 simply made WW2 inevitable. Similarly a modern day humiliation of Russia would simply guarantee another future conflict at some point. We may not like the way Putin has achieved, and is able to wield, power in Russia but the fact is he is the one we have to deal with, complete with his paranoia-laden view of Russia's place in the world. I'm certainly not in favour of appeasement but to reach a long-term solution requires an effort to reach a mutual understanding of the issues at hand. A gung-ho or bullying approach will not achieve that.

Western idealism doesn't always end well. I agree with the tone of your post completely.
 

Annetts key

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Is the situation the same as the Kobayashi Maru situation? I would say no. The best position to negotiate from, is from one of strength. Russia is increasing looking weaker and weaker.

As the Ukrainian military continues to be supplied and supported by its allies, it’s likely that they will continue to make advances with the Russian invaders having to withdraw further.

At some point, it is likely that it will become increasingly untenable for Russian forces to effectively defend Crimea. Especially if Ukrainian forces cut off the Russian forces in that area by making near to or get to the coast of the Sea of Azov, and hence spilt the Russian forces in two. Creating a new pocket of isolated Russian occupiers.

If they can also ensure that the Kerch Strait / Crimea bridge continues to be out of action, the Russians in Crimea and any other Ukrainian territory in that area are going to be in big trouble.

That’s when you open negotiations with Putin.

As to the Russian Black Sea fleet, I suspect if the Ukrainians have the chance, there won’t be much of it left.
 

Russel

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I've seen a few posts on Twitter suggesting the withdrawal from Kherson could be some kind of trap...

Given the Russians performance so far, I can't see that being the case
 

DustyBin

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I've seen a few posts on Twitter suggesting the withdrawal from Kherson could be some kind of trap...

Given the Russians performance so far, I can't see that being the case

The Ukrainians are treating it with suspicion, which is sensible. I’m sure they’ll be receiving (and gathering) a huge amount of intelligence, but there is clearly the potential for it to be some kind of trap. I don’t think the Ukrainians will walk into anything though; they’re not stupid and I’m not sure they need to rush into Kherson itself anyway.
 

TheEdge

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I've seen a few posts on Twitter suggesting the withdrawal from Kherson could be some kind of trap...

Given the Russians performance so far, I can't see that being the case

I think there is a concern the Russians are either trying to lay a very obvious trap or are going to pull across the Dnipro then try and pull a Mariupol and raze the city.

If they try the second the sky will darken with HIMARS.
 

DustyBin

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I think there is a concern the Russians are either trying to lay a very obvious trap or are going to pull across the Dnipro then try and pull a Mariupol and raze the city.

If they try the second the sky will darken with HIMARS.

That’s the biggest risk IMO, with or without Ukraine sending thousands of troops into the city (which is the obvious potential trap). The picture on the ground isn’t clear, but as per my previous post I’m not sure they need to send large numbers of troops into Kherson, especially if the Russians have indeed pulled out. Before the (alleged) Russian withdrawal it looked as though they’d cut off Kherson from the north; I’m not sure if that remains the best strategy?
 

Loppylugs

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That’s when you open negotiations with Putin.
How can anyone negotiate with a scumbag that has caused the death of thousands, ripped families apart, employed a ragbag army that rapes and pillages, in order to satisfy his ludicrous ideology ? There was a message draped over a building in Vilnius recently saying: Putin, The Hague is waiting for you. Hear hear, let's hope that comes to fruition.
 

Bletchleyite

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How can anyone negotiate with a scumbag that has caused the death of thousands, ripped families apart, employed a ragbag army that rapes and pillages, in order to satisfy his ludicrous ideology ? There was a message draped over a building in Vilnius recently saying: Putin, The Hague is waiting for you. Hear hear, let's hope that comes to fruition.

What other option is there bar nuclear World War III, which cannot have a good outcome for anyone? (Without nuclear weapons things would be very different).
 

Chingy

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With winter setting in over Ukraine and territorial gains of any note much harder to come by, one has to wonder whether Putin will now play the long game.

By that I mean turn the war into a frozen conflict and test the West's resolve with regards to military and financial support for Ukraine. With the Republicans likely take over the House of Representatives, and quite possibly the Senate too, will this change the future of US aid to Ukraine?

Noise coming out from over the pond is that the Republicans aren't as keen to write blank cheques for Ukraine as the Democrats are. Should the war still be going on in 2024, will the new US President continue the current level of support for Ukraine? If Trump gets in, that will stir the pot for sure.

This is quite possibly what Putin is hoping for now. Knowing he can't win anytime soon, he will want to cause as much political and economic pain to the West as possible, and eventually cracks will start to appear and division starts.
 

GS250

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This is quite possibly what Putin is hoping for now. Knowing he can't win anytime soon, he will want to cause as much political and economic pain to the West as possible, and eventually cracks will start to appear and division starts.

Whatever we believe of the Russian regime, the are probably not as stupid as some believe. Over confident of their armed forces, clearly yes. Willing to sacrifice Russian lives in a relentless pursuit of their aims? Definitely. Underestimated the willingness of the West to put its own citizens at a disadvantage re energy? Absolutely. However strategically they still hold this potential trump card re how Western citizens will perceive our efforts versus Putin. Patience will soon start to wear thin if the power starts to go out regularly. This of course will be polished up and sold as pro Russian propaganda if there's a hint of anti government protest in the West.
 

Annetts key

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Putin may want to play the long game, but just because there has not been much change on the maps that show the area controlled by Russia, does not mean that fighting is not taking place. And if you know where to look, there is information that large battles are being fought. With Ukraine often coming out better.

Certainly the Ukrainian forces are not going to just wait, so they will never let it become a frozen conflict.

I think the generalisation of everything will stop due to the mud season is an over simplification. The Ukrainians obviously know their territory far better than most of the commentators. So as with any war, the weather will affect operations, but I don’t think it will completely stop the fighting. And if it gets really cold, the soft ground will harden up.

In terms of the U.S.A. politics, it currently looks like the Republicans have not done anywhere near as well as they expected. And by the sounds of it, a lot of the Republicans that support Trump were not successful. We will have to wait a while for all the results to trickle in.

In votes before the elections, in the house a majority of Republicans backed the votes for military and financial support for Ukraine. Plus the Democrats have already put in place the lend lease act. Further, between now and January, the Democrats have the opportunity to pass further legislation before the newly elected representatives take up their positions.

I don’t think there will be any cracks within the West anytime soon with regards to backing Ukraine. And hopefully it will be all over by 2024, or at least there will have been very significant progress by then.

If anything, I think it’s Russia and their leadership that will becoming under far greater pressure in the future.
 
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DC1989

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The Midterms were a diaster for Putin, yes the republicans will most likely win the house but most of the MAGA pro Russia candidates lost. The 'normal' republicans are very pro Ukraine, if for no other reason than a perfect opportunity to weaken Russia for a generation or too. Leaving the US free to try and contain China. Ukraine will have support from the US now until at least 2024.
 

Cdd89

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I suspect one tactical error Putin is making is thinking that his gambits / potential for negotiations are being considered in isolation, whereas the West has to remember that China is watching the outcome (along with other potential aggressor nations). That unbalances the incentives since the West is willing to endure an ‘illogical’ amount of hardship to deter future conflicts.

On the other hand I think the West is making a tactical error in imagining that Putin is going anywhere (and even if he did disappear, that any successor would be less aggressive militarily). The Russian people do appear to support Putin and this course of action, even factoring in that people may not feel able to give honest answers in polls.

Thus I think the best path is to reach a settlement that Putin can present as a victory, while making it clear to the world that his gains were not worth the price. “Securing the future of Crimea” is an obvious one given that the West allowed it to be occupied since 2014 and therefore it would not be perceived by the world as new gain.
 

Bletchleyite

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Thus I think the best path is to reach a settlement that Putin can present as a victory, while making it clear to the world that his gains were not worth the price. “Securing the future of Crimea” is an obvious one given that the West allowed it to be occupied since 2014 and therefore it would not be perceived by the world as new gain.

And as I mentioned, it's been Russian in the past too. I don't agree with Putin's method of taking it, but it's hard to say it's uniquely Ukrainian. Borders do shift over the years.
 

najaB

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And as I mentioned, it's been Russian in the past too. I don't agree with Putin's method of taking it, but it's hard to say it's uniquely Ukrainian. Borders do shift over the years.
They do indeed shift. However, it's dangerous to reward Russia for taking Crimea by force.
 

Cdd89

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They do indeed shift. However, it's dangerous to reward Russia for taking Crimea by force.
Russia was already rewarded 8 years ago when they took it and we did nothing - that’s a sunk cost.

The caveat is that they currently have an unstable region on their hands, and we/Ukraine would be giving them a stable one. But I think improving stability is good for the world (specifically its citizens).

I do see your point of view though — I too am uneasy with “borders can shift by force” as those days should absolutely be behind us; however a settlement with Russia is not necessarily a good option but merely the least-bad option compared to continued death, destruction and risk.
 

Bletchleyite

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I do see your point of view though — I too am uneasy with “borders can shift by force” as those days should absolutely be behind us; however a settlement with Russia is not necessarily a good option but merely the least-bad option compared to continued death, destruction and risk.

And while it might *feel* like pre-WW2 in terms of appeasement, I reiterate - nuclear weapons change everything.
 

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