San Francisco Trams etc

[STEVIEBOY1]

Good afternoon,

I saw a Michael Portillo Programme a couple of days ago, a repeat I think from 2017. He was in San Francisco and travelled on the Cable Cars that the city is well know for. However, in some background shots, I noticed what appeared to be, some single deck, more traditional type trams, they looked very sleek and streamlined. (Rather like those Silver Caravans that came from the USA). They also reminded me somewhat of the "Balloon Type" Blackpool trams. I did not know that San Francisco had other type of trams, I don't remember seeing any when I was there years ago. Do these still run now? what age were they built? I was wondering, from their look, if they were from the 1940s/1950s. Are they are heritage service, or in day to day regular use?


Thanks Steve.

 

[alholmes]

These are the streetcars that operate on lines E and F in San Francisco. You can find loads of details at https://www.streetcar.org/

 

[Iskra]

They still run, I went on them this year. They have very nice historic interiors and some even have 2+1 seating. They are cheap to travel on (and can be free if you don't mind doing what the locals do...). They originate from different cities across the US, hence the different liveries. They are used daily.

 

[edwin_m]

There is also the Muni Metro, which is relatively modern LRVs running under Market Street and surfacing in the suburbs for more traditional street running. Not to mention the Bay Area Rapid Transit, on a second level under Market Street - 3 levels of rails there may be some sort of record. And I think they still have trolleybuses too.

 

[the sniper]

I think the clientele is a bit more touristy along the bay front, Market Street seems to be frequented by more of the local 'characters', of which San Francisco is unfortunately not short of nowadays. Definitely an added attraction for an enthusiast though. There's a small tram centric museum worth a visit alongside the lines too: https://www.google.com/maps/place/San+Francisco+Railway+Museum/@37.7937878,-122.3938313,20z/ (Separate from the Cable Car museum, which is definitely worth visiting too.)

 

[Taunton]

These are in daily use along the main tourist streets in San Francisco, but are proper public transport, the classic streamlined USA PCC streetcar, Presidents Consultative Committee (nothing to do with the USA President, it was the Presidents of the streetcar companies in various cities who got together for the design). Built immediately pre- and post-WW2, thousands were built, Chicago alone had 600, they can look the same but there are a range of variations and some technical advances. San Francisco bought some new, but as various other US systems closed down or replaced them, they were bought up secondhand.

Although they have a wide range of liveries, simplistically one for every US system that had PCCs, they are either San Francisco's own initial cars, or large blocks they bought up from Philadelphia and Newark. Immaculately restored, they also share the daily route with various cars from around the world in their own colours, including a 1930s open car from Blackpool.

There's a long history of their route along San Francisco's main street, Market Street, which when I first went to the city in the 1970s was the substantial main streetcar route, with these cars already past middle age. It was replaced by a subway underneath for modern articulated trams, in between street level and the BART high speed (supposedly) rapid transit further underneath; there were all sorts of delays in construction and then getting the new cars to work. The 1970s articulated cars have already been replaced, and their replacements themselves are now under consideration, but the PCCs made an amazing comeback on their original route on the surface, and are now seen as much a tourist feature as the cablecars.

 

[Beebman]

When I was there in 2015 I bought a small paperback book I found called 'On Track: A Field Guide to San Francisco's Historic Streetcars and Cable Cars' by Rick Laubscher in which every single electric tramcar in the historic fleet (including the PCCs) has its own page showing its livery and its history. The section on the cable cars is shorter but still useful, and then there's a guide on sightseeing from the cars and a section on the history of the city's street railways. AFAICS the book hasn't been updated but is still in print. (The price on my copy is $14.95.)

 

[Dave W]

I went to the museum above mentioned on a special heritage weekend whilst over there about four years ago. Some cracking old streamliner buses too, with that space age "italic" look.

I can't speak as to whether this is indicative of the wider country, but there certainly seemed a very healthy heritage scene in San Francisco. The guy in the museum was fantastic and bent my ear for well over an hour on all of the exhibits, and the examples that produced outside (In fact, to answer my own point, I had a similar experience in the railroad museum in Memphis, visited after a bit of a spotting extravaganza around the big junction south of the city - the bloke gently put me right on my UK-centric assumptions)

 

[Mojo]

hey originate from different cities across the US, hence the different liveries.

Not just from the US, they also have two ex-Blackpool "Boat" cars, nine from Milan, amongst others they have there.

I can't speak as to whether this is indicative of the wider country, but there certainly seemed a very healthy heritage scene in San Francisco.

America is quite amusing because quite a few cities have fairly new Tramways but with either old Trams (they call them trolleys or streetcars), or new Trams designed to look old. There are also lots of cities with modern diesel-powered buses but are designed to look like old Trams; these are often free of charge.

 

[tasky]

They're very pretty and historic but I have to say they were quite impractical when I visited. The frequencies were not great (every 12 minutes I believe), they got stuck in traffic, and every one I took was absolutely rammed constantly. This was also the case for the buses.

Given SF supposedly has one of the best public transport systems in the US I was pretty surprised by how bad it was.

Here is a map of the services:

Rider Information & Map

San Francisco Market Street Railway | We keep San Francisco's Vintage Streetcars on Track

www.streetcar.org

 

[Iskra]

They're very pretty and historic but I have to say they were quite impractical when I visited. The frequencies were not great (every 12 minutes I believe), they got stuck in traffic, and every one I took was absolutely rammed constantly. This was also the case for the buses.

Given SF supposedly has one of the best public transport systems in the US I was pretty surprised by how bad it was.

Here is a map of the services:

Rider Information & Map

San Francisco Market Street Railway | We keep San Francisco's Vintage Streetcars on Track

www.streetcar.org

View attachment 124569

I was always able to get a seat and standees were few, although I was fairly off season and at a time when hotel rooms were all booked out for a massive convention, so those people would be unlikely to be on the trams. I thought it worked fairly well, but the route map was a bit impractical.

Not just from the US, they also have two ex-Blackpool "Boat" cars, nine from Milan, amongst others they have there.


America is quite amusing because quite a few cities have fairly new Tramways but with either old Trams (they call them trolleys or streetcars), or new Trams designed to look old. There are also lots of cities with modern diesel-powered buses but are designed to look like old Trams; these are often free of charge.

That's true, one was from Havana too from memory.

 

[MarcVD]

Not just from the US, they also have two ex-Blackpool "Boat" cars, nine from Milan, amongst others they have there.

Including a STIB PCC 7000 from Brussels : //www.streetcar.org/brussels_sprouts_in_the_premature_spring/

 

[Bikeman78]

There is also the Muni Metro, which is relatively modern LRVs running under Market Street and surfacing in the suburbs for more traditional street running. Not to mention the Bay Area Rapid Transit, on a second level under Market Street - 3 levels of rails there may be some sort of record. And I think they still have trolleybuses too.

There were lots of trolleybuses in 2018, built around the year 2000. Same design as the diesel buses.

 

[Taunton]

There were lots of trolleybuses in 2018, built around the year 2000. Same design as the diesel buses.

The trolleybus system lasts there because of some extreme gradients in the city, which are beyond the abilities of diesel buses, especially when loaded. It was the same for the cablecars, which initially lasted, until they became a feature in their own right, because of some of the steep hills they climb, and (more importantly) descend, whilst holding on to the cable.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

That is brilliant, thank you everybody for the great information here, much appreciated. Hopefully, I may be able get to SFO and have a "Play" on all those systems.

 

[Iskra]

That is brilliant, thank you everybody for the great information here, much appreciated. Hopefully, I may be able get to SFO and have a "Play" on all those systems.

Definitely worth a trip- try go on the BA A380 and I would also recommend the Bay ferry system the boats are very thrashy and travel about 40mph

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Definitely worth a trip- try go on the BA A380 and I would also recommend the Bay ferry system the boats are very thrashy and travel about 40mph

View attachment 124593

Thanks, yes that is what I would try to do. The Portillo Programme I mentioned at the start of this thread, did feature a ferry, I think Blue White & Gold? that went over to Sausalito? it did look good.

 

[DelW]

Thanks, yes that is what I would try to do. The Portillo Programme I mentioned at the start of this thread, did feature a ferry, I think Blue White & Gold? that went over to Sausalito? it did look good.

The Sausalito ferries also give you good views of the Golden Gate and Oakland Bay* bridges, and Alcatraz.
I don't know if it's still there or not, but in 2015 the departure board in the ferry terminal was a Solari type flap board too.
*(visible in Iskra's picture above)

 

[Iskra]

While I took the boat out to Alcatraz (definitely worth a visit in itself), the cooler ferry I took to a place called Vallejo (which also gives good views of Alcatraz Island and both bridges), which is more stereotypical California. I walked over to the Mare Island Naval Shipyard where there was a historic warship, brewery, winery and active naval shipyard. It's also much warmer than San Francisco even though it's not that far away.

Also, if you want the best night cityscape shot of San Francisco, it's best taken from the top floor of the parking lot above San Francisco Central Police Station:

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

That is a great picture.

 

[Taunton]

The Bay Bridge, that's the multi-span suspension bridge in the picture above, used to have rail lines on the lower deck, which were used by several operators with electric Interurban cars coming over from networks on the Oakland side. Prior to the bridge there was a substantial ferry operation. The lines ended up at a central station, the Transbay Terminal. It changed over to buses in the 1950s, running on busways from the bridge on the original railway viaducts into the Terminal, and in recent times this building has been rebuilt on site.

Part of this rebuilding was a new tram route from the Market Street subway, past the terminal and then down a major new route, Third Street, which is a big expansion of the modern tram system, termed Muni Metro, along with a new north-south tunnel branch (which I haven't seen yet) across the city centre as well. The new articulated Siemens cars for this, built in California, have expanded the fleet for all this, and more of them will over the next years replace the Breda cars on the rest of the network. Meanwhile the elegant streamlined PCCs, which will now be THREE generations back, carry on along Market Street as ever!

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

Not just from the US, they also have two ex-Blackpool "Boat" cars, nine from Milan, amongst others they have there.

Along with a Melbourne W2 class tram and SW6 class tram.

 

[route101]

I do remember using the old trams in SF when I was younger. I dont remember an E route back then, is that newer?

Can the old trams operate underground and the new ones above ground on Market St?

 

[67thave]

I do remember using the old trams in SF when I was younger. I dont remember an E route back then, is that newer?

The E operating on a regular basis is a relatively new phenomenon (regular service began in 2016), but it has existed irregularly in some shape or form since the late 1990s. It shares the same track as the F along the Embarcadero, but continues southwards past Market Street to terminate at 4th and King (in front of the Caltrain terminal).

 

[Taunton]

I don't think the old cars can use the subway tunnels as they are fitted with trolley poles instead of pantographs, and the underground wiring is unlikely to have been installed to suit the odd excursion by such cars. The wiring on the relatively new route on the South Embarcadero is adapted to handle both types.

In fact it was the retention of the surface tracks along Market Street after the subway route underneath them was completed which eventually led to the implementation of the E route and the whole reinstated PCC operation, which was not in the original plan, and had the usual San Francisco "on again, off again" approach for years. Of course the planning was that the subway would replace all, with just a few stops instead of every main block. The PCCs use the Metro lines as well when they come back to surface street running to access the Geneva carhouse.

 

[edwin_m]

The Bay Bridge, that's the multi-span suspension bridge in the picture above, used to have rail lines on the lower deck, which were used by several operators with electric Interurban cars coming over from networks on the Oakland side. Prior to the bridge there was a substantial ferry operation. The lines ended up at a central station, the Transbay Terminal. It changed over to buses in the 1950s, running on busways from the bridge on the original railway viaducts into the Terminal, and in recent times this building has been rebuilt on site.

A software company that I won't name here has paid for the naming rights. In better news there is space reserved in the basement for a future high speed rail station.

 

[Iskra]

A software company that I won't name here has paid for the naming rights. In better news there is space reserved in the basement for a future high speed rail station.

Salesforce by any chance?

 

[stuu]

The Muni subway is automated with drivers, like the Victoria Line, so there is no chance of the heritage trams using it. I haven't been there for over a decade but then the heritage trams seemed to run very infrequently but were always full when they turned up, despite the much more frequent service in the subway

 

[Springs Branch]

I do remember using the old trams in SF when I was younger. I dont remember an E route back then, is that newer?

I don't think the old cars can use the subway tunnels as they are fitted with trolley poles instead of pantographs, and the underground wiring is unlikely to have been installed to suit the odd excursion by such cars.

That reminded me of a scene in one of the earlier Clint Eastwood films (Dirty Harry?), where the hero takes a night-time ride on one of the old San Francisco PCC cars. An instruction "take the K-car" springs to mind.

IIRC, 'Harry' alights from the streetcar, then runs through one of the tunnels. If he had arrived on a 'K', presumably this was the Twin Peaks tunnel, rather than the Market Street subway. (OT, but within the streetcar tunnel Eastwood is accosted by several lurking low-lifes who try to mug him. Of course, this ends badly for them; these punks were not so lucky as they might have been feeling before their encounter).

Anyhow, back to the present day. If anyone is visiting SF and has a passing interest in Light Rail matters, you could do worse than "take the K-car" yourself (other letters are available) out to the Muni Metro street-running sections. This is after the lines emerge from the Dubcoe or Twin Peaks tunnels in characteristic SF neighbourhoods like Cole Valley - well away from the Tourist Central of Fishermans' Wharf & Union Square. No PCC cars out there, but on the plus side, the Light Rail service is more frequent than the F-Market, and not necessarily packed out all day long.

You're even safe bringing your partner along for a bit of 'real SF' sightseeing. Mrs S.B. has been happy to accompany me on several of these excursions in return for a leisurely coffee or brunch at a cafe or trendy bakery in a quaint neighbourhood like Noe Valley. There is (or was) a coffee shop across the street from West Portal Station, where you can loiter for half an hour or more, watching the Muni Metro trains entering or leaving the Twin Peaks tunnel and doing battle with the San Francisco traffic at the confusing street junction directly adjacent to the station.


[EDIT] The internet tells me the Dirty Harry 'muggers in the tunnel' scene was actually filmed in San Francisco's Fort Mason tunnel, which wasn't ever part of the Muni streetcar system (and has since been abandoned as a freight line). And the film was released in 1971, while the Market Street subway opened for Muni Metro in 1980, so Harry Callahan would not have been running through that particular one.

 

[Taunton]

Anyhow, back to the present day. If anyone is visiting SF and has a passing interest in Light Rail matters, you could do worse than "take the K-car" yourself (other letters are available) to the Muni Metro street-running sections. This is after the lines emerge from the Dubcoe or Twin Peaks tunnels in characteristic SF neighbourhoods like Cole Valley - well away from the Tourist Central of Fishermans' Wharf & Union Square. No PCC cars out there, but on the plus side, the Light Rail service is more frequent than the F-Market, and not necessarily packed out all day long.

You're even safe bringing your partner along for a bit of 'real SF' sightseeing - Mrs S.B. has been happy to accompany me on several of these excursions in return for a leisurely coffee or brunch at a cafe or trendy bakery in a quaint neighbourhood. There is (or was) a coffee shop across the street from West Portal Station, where you can loiter for half an hour watching the Metro cars entering or leaving the Twin Peaks tunnel and doing battle with the San Francisco traffic at a confusing street junction adjacent to the station.

My own favourite has long been the 'N - Judah' line, which terminates nicely right on the Pacific Ocean beach having run through the old Duboce Tunnel, through the Haight-Ashbury neighbourhood (for those of a certain age - OK, OK, I'm of that age), out through middle suburbia, and to a loop at the immense (it is) beach, nice cafe there. I first did it in a PCC (back to that age point, and indeed had got off at the Carl & Cole stop for Haight-Ashbury), then in the Boeing cars, and finally the current Bredas. One day I'll go back for a run in the new Siemens ones.

The Muni Metro names can be confusing. The 'N - Judah' line goes to the Ocean, the 'M - Ocean' line goes nowhere near the ocean. The main car house is in, surprisingly, Geneva, where alongside the PCC cars are kept in the Beach building; that's nowhere near the sea either, but named after Mr Beach, formerly associated with the cars.