Scotrail Blue stripe (Mk3) Sleepers 10578 & 10610

[Waverleystu]

Not sure if I’ve picked this up wrong but supposedly there was two Scotrail (Blue stripe) Mk3 Sleepers 10578 & 10610? I cannot find any photographic evidence of the two Mk3’s nor any info on what diagrams used for?

 

[CR165022]

Not sure if I’ve picked this up wrong but supposedly there was two Scotrail (Blue stripe) Mk3 Sleepers 10578 & 10610? I cannot find any photographic evidence of the two Mk3’s nor any info on what diagrams used for?

I've found a pic of 10610 but can't find one of 10578

 

[Waverleystu]

I've found a pic of 10610 but can't find one of 10578

Thanks for the pic. The info and pics I’m looking for are from the 80’s (86-87) when two Mk3 sleepers had the red stripe replaced with the Scotrail blue stripe

 

[D6975]

They would have been used on the internal. (Glas/Edin-Inverness)

 

[Waverleystu]

They would have been used on the internal. (Glas/Edin-Inverness)

They would have been used on the internal. (Glas/Edin-Inverness)

Yes I had a feeling that the two MK3’s would have. There has been mention of sightings on Railforum in the past but very little is known and images are non-existent. I’ve only ever seen Push-Pull Mk3’s as used on Edinburgh-Glasgow services

 

[CR165022]

Thanks for the pic. The info and pics I’m looking for are from the 80’s (86-87) when two Mk3 sleepers had the red stripe replaced with the Scotrail blue stripe

Ah right, there's a rmweb forum that has a link to a photo of them but it doesn't seem to work, but you might have better luck

Inter-City Mark 3 Sleepers with ScotRail Blue-Stripe

I've already asked this question on another forum, which has caused a bit of argument. I have received a request to produce overlays for a pair of MkIII Sleepers in Executive Livery but with the ScotRail light blue band. The suggested numbers are SC10578 and SC10610. Now, I have a very vague reco...

www.rmweb.co.uk

 

[Waverleystu]

Ah right, there's a rmweb forum that has a link to a photo of them but it doesn't seem to work, but you might have better luck

Inter-City Mark 3 Sleepers with ScotRail Blue-Stripe

I've already asked this question on another forum, which has caused a bit of argument. I have received a request to produce overlays for a pair of MkIII Sleepers in Executive Livery but with the ScotRail light blue band. The suggested numbers are SC10578 and SC10610. Now, I have a very vague reco...

www.rmweb.co.uk

No luck either CR165022! So close to catching a gimpse of the elusive Scotrail sleepers in blue stripe livery

 

[ExRes]

If you enter '10578 sleeper' on Flickr there's a picture of it in very rough Inter City livery

 

[Darandio]

I do recall a picture years ago of this on RMWeb along with Mk3's on push-pull services sporting an early variation of the ScotRail livery with the stripe in BR Blue instead of the lighter variant that was adopted. Even if the thread there could be resurrected I suspect the images were lost with the demise of Fotopic.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

They would have been used on the internal. (Glas/Edin-Inverness)

Also between Glasgow and Aberdeen - this was a one way only service targeted I believe at offshore workers going for early flights from Dyce to the oilfields.
The sleeping car was marshalled front on the Glasgow Inverness service then forward from Perth on the 01.05 (times may have varied) a passenger train whose main purpose was to convey newspapers mails and parcels.

The empty sleeping car returned south during the day marshalled inside the loco on a push pull set.

 

[northernbelle]

https://flic.kr/p/E3Tnh1
https://flic.kr/p/PP7dzC

These photos shows one of the 'push pull' sets with a SLEP tucked inside the loco, albeit in BR blue/grey.

I do recall a picture years ago of this on RMWeb along with Mk3's on push-pull services sporting an early variation of the ScotRail livery with the stripe in BR Blue instead of the lighter variant that was adopted. Even if the thread there could be resurrected I suspect the images were lost with the demise of Fotopic.

https://flic.kr/p/c7RL1W

Photo link to said variation.

 

[Waverleystu]

https://flic.kr/p/E3Tnh1
https://flic.kr/p/PP7dzC

These photos shows one of the 'push pull' sets with a SLEP tucked inside the loco, albeit in BR blue/grey.


https://flic.kr/p/c7RL1W

Photo link to said variation.

Seems to be that there was a handful of Mk3 Sleepers used in Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness services. Earlier posts from 2010 have mentioned that the Ian Allan coaching stock from 1987 confirm that two Mk3 Slep carried the Scotrail livery but again no images and nobody can find any photographic evidence. The mystery continues...

Should look something like this image that was posted up by a forum member many years ago

 

[47271]

As far as I'm aware mk3s were only ever used on the one way Glasgow-Aberdeen sleeper of the mid 1980s, and the Scottish internal Inverness service ended with the final withdrawal of mk1s.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

As far as I'm aware mk3s were only ever used on the one way Glasgow-Aberdeen sleeper of the mid 1980s, and the Scottish internal Inverness service ended with the final withdrawal of mk1s.

The Mk3s ran to Inverness too for a spell from both Edinburgh and Glasgow. This meant the overnight had to be formed of air braked stock and consequently the rake of vans normally attached rear at Perth had to run as a separate train.

 

[hexagon789]

Not sure if I’ve picked this up wrong but supposedly there was two Scotrail (Blue stripe) Mk3 Sleepers 10578 & 10610? I cannot find any photographic evidence of the two Mk3’s nor any info on what diagrams used for?

Certainly a couple were branded - "ScotRail Sleeper", however as I understand it none actually received proper ScotRail Sector livery.

I believe one received the Rail Blue stripe variant as a test but that's all I've ever read, never which car it was nor any confirmation of any sleeping cars actually gained ScR light blue stripe livery.

It is thus my understanding none did and the entry in the Platform 5 1987 is thus incorrect.

As far as I'm aware mk3s were only ever used on the one way Glasgow-Aberdeen sleeper of the mid 1980s, and the Scottish internal Inverness service ended with the final withdrawal of mk1s.

I believe the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Inverness lasted until 1989/90 the steady acceleration of the day trains through the 1980s rendering the sleepers superfluous, though an overnight Inverness-Glasgow lasted in the path of the sleeper into early 158 days.

 

[ajrm]

Also between Glasgow and Aberdeen - this was a one way only service targeted I believe at offshore workers going for early flights from Dyce to the oilfields.
The sleeping car was marshalled front on the Glasgow Inverness service then forward from Perth on the 01.05 (times may have varied) a passenger train whose main purpose was to convey newspapers mails and parcels.

The empty sleeping car returned south during the day marshalled inside the loco on a push pull set.

What happened to the sleeping car when the service arrived at Queen Street?

 

[hexagon789]

What happened to the sleeping car when the service arrived at Queen Street?

It would be shunted out and taken to Cowlairs for servicing.

 

[47271]

What happened to the sleeping car when the service arrived at Queen Street?

I don't know for sure but I suspect that the loco (which arrived at the rear of the push pull) took the full set off to Cowlairs for servicing, the sleeper was removed, and the loco went to Eastfield.

There were still plenty of conventional loco hauled trains working out of Queen Street at this time so any permutation would've been possible. Also bear in mind that the Aberdeen push pulls were an operational development with existing stock rather than the intensive shuttle arrangement already working on the E&G.

 

[Logan Carroll]

I have think i might have a book with a picture. Give me a minute to look it out.

edit: Scratch this. The photo i was thinking of had blue/grey coaches with intercity sleeper decals. I have definitely seen pictures of coaches with blue/grey and scotrail sleeper decals.

 

[Waverleystu]

Certainly a couple were branded - "ScotRail Sleeper", however as I understand it none actually received proper ScotRail Sector livery.

I believe one received the Rail Blue stripe variant as a test but that's all I've ever read, never which car it was nor any confirmation of any sleeping cars actually gained ScR light blue stripe livery.

It is thus my understanding none did and the entry in the Platform 5 1987 is thus incorrect.


I believe the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Inverness lasted until 1989/90 the steady acceleration of the day trains through the 1980s rendering the sleepers superfluous, though an overnight Inverness-Glasgow lasted in the path of the sleeper into early 158 days.

That would answer the question why there’s no photographs then! Lol. There has been posts from 2010 on Railforum that states the two Mk3 SLEP carried the livery and that along with sightings by members has added mystery to the whole thing. As you say it’s more than likely incorrect information

 

[ajrm]

I don't know for sure but I suspect that the loco (which arrived at the rear of the push pull) took the full set off to Cowlairs for servicing, the sleeper was removed, and the loco went to Eastfield.

There were still plenty of conventional loco hauled trains working out of Queen Street at this time so any permutation would've been possible. Also bear in mind that the Aberdeen push pulls were an operational development with existing stock rather than the intensive shuttle arrangement already working on the E&G.

After asking the question I dug out a pocket timetable I have for the Aberdeen/Queen Street service in 1987-8. The turnaround at Queen Street seems very leisurely (92 minutes), so am I right in thinking that all the push-pull sets on the Aberdeens would have gone off for servicing between runs?

 

[47271]

After asking the question I dug out a pocket timetable I have for the Aberdeen/Queen Street service in 1987-8. The turnaround at Queen Street seems very leisurely (92 minutes), so am I right in thinking that all the push-pull sets on the Aberdeens would have gone off for servicing between runs?

I've checked this with my Dad because he's the 80s expert rather than me.

He's not sure on the servicing arrangements at Queen Street as late as 1987/8, but he did say that the Glasgow-Aberdeen push-pulls started as a single mk3 diagram as early as February 1981, initially with a mk1 catering vehicle in the makeup, and from 1984 onwards the sleeper returned south within the first return leg of the diagram from, in other words the 11am ish departure from Aberdeen.

He says that the 1525 ex Queen Street (and the 1900ish back from Aberdeen) was the same mk3 set in the early years, but he's less clear what happened later when they had more 47/7s and DBSOs available and they ran around with mk2s on most of the services south from Aberdeen. So it could be that the 90 minute turnaround you mentioned involved two different sets by the time the sleeper was included, and even if it was the same set in the early days, unlikely that it would have occupied P7 at Queen Street for all that time between services.

He's got loads of photos of Scotrail in the 80s which we keep talking about scanning, and some definitely include the sleeper in the 11am departure from Aberdeen. I'll see if he can dig them out and I'll put up anything that's relevant.

 

[hexagon789]

I've checked this with my Dad because he's the 80s expert rather than me.

He's not sure on the servicing arrangements at Queen Street as late as 1987/8, but he did say that the Glasgow-Aberdeen push-pulls started as a single mk3 diagram as early as February 1981, initially with a mk1 catering vehicle in the makeup, and from 1984 onwards the sleeper returned south within the first return leg of the diagram from, in other words the 11am ish departure from Aberdeen.

He says that the 1525 ex Queen Street (and the 1900ish back from Aberdeen) was the same mk3 set in the early years, but he's less clear what happened later when they had more 47/7s and DBSOs available and they ran around with mk2s on most of the services south from Aberdeen. So it could be that the 90 minute turnaround you mentioned involved two different sets by the time the sleeper was included, and even if it was the same set in the early days, unlikely that it would have occupied P7 at Queen Street for all that time between services.

He's got loads of photos of Scotrail in the 80s which we keep talking about scanning, and some definitely include the sleeper in the 11am departure from Aberdeen. I'll see if he can dig them out and I'll put up anything that's relevant.

See these old posts of mine for non Mk3 push-pull set and Class 47/7 diagrams for 1986:

47/7 push pulls

The responses to Clansman & Scottish 37s has got me started now. A lot of wheels turning in my head now :) With regards 47701-717 use on Glassgow Edinburgh push-pulls which is well documented, I seem to recall seeing some of these locos on Glassgow to Aberdeen, Dundee workings also. I was very...

railforums.co.uk

47/7 push pulls

In general the Mk2 sets were isolated to the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Aberdeen services an the Mk3 sets to the Edinburgh-Glasgow shuttles, with a couple of Glasgow-Aberdeen returns operated by the Mk3 sets. I have yet to see photographic evidence of a Mk2 rake operating the Edinburgh-Glasgow shuttles...

railforums.co.uk

The two Mk3 services between Glasgow/Aberdeen look to be the same as they were when first introduced -

0725 GLQ-ABD and 1100 return (the return working of this conveyed the ex-Glasgow to Aberdeen sleeper from the previous night)

1525 GLQ-DYC and 1845 DYC (1900 ABD)-GLQ

 

[Logan Carroll]

He's got loads of photos of Scotrail in the 80s

Does he have any pictures of train interiors? if so i would be very interested in seeing them.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The two Mk3 services between Glasgow/Aberdeen look to be the same as they were when first introduced -

0725 GLQ-ABD and 1100 return (the return working of this conveyed the ex-Glasgow to Aberdeen sleeper from the previous night)

1525 GLQ-DYC and 1845 DYC (1900 ABD)-GLQ

The set for this was previously the fifth set for the E&G service which, for most of the day could be worked with 4 sets, with the fifth set on paper only required for a morning peak additional EDB to GLQ and evening peak return although in practice the fifth set enabled all sets to be cycled out through the day for servicing as had been the case with the previous 27 / Mk2 push pull workings.
Allocating the 'fifth' set to Glasgow Aberdeen saved a set on that circuit and left the four sets in intensive service all day, with I think a Mk2 set diagrammed for the peak extras, not sure what else if anything that set did in the day. The initial Aberdeen working probably showed the saving to be made by not requiring shunt release/turnover locos at Queen St (and Aberdeen unless arriving on P6 and running round) and would have paved the way for further DBSO conversions and full push pull operation on the Aberdeen route.

 

[hexagon789]

The set for this was previously the fifth set for the E&G service which, for most of the day could be worked with 4 sets, with the fifth set on paper only required for a morning peak additional EDB to GLQ and evening peak return although in practice the fifth set enabled all sets to be cycled out through the day for servicing as had been the case with the previous 27 / Mk2 push pull workings.
Allocating the 'fifth' set to Glasgow Aberdeen saved a set on that circuit and left the four sets in intensive service all day, with I think a Mk2 set diagrammed for the peak extras, not sure what else if anything that set did in the day. The initial Aberdeen working probably showed the saving to be made by not requiring shunt release/turnover locos at Queen St (and Aberdeen unless arriving on P6 and running round) and would have paved the way for further DBSO conversions and full push pull operation on the Aberdeen route.

In the early years the spare set did Queen Street-Perth services, once the Edinburgh-Aberdeen became push-pull from 1986 (the Glasgow-Aberdeen having gone over in 1985), the set was split up and the TSOs inserted into two of the Mk2 push-pull sets.

From 1988 Mk2 push-pull sets could be seen on the E&G shuttles in place of Mk3 sets and the Edinburgh-Aberdeen were no longer booked push-pull.

 

[dubscottie]

I can confirm 2 sleepers had ScotRail livery but with a rail blue stripe. One was still branded "Intercity Sleeper". There were pictures on Fotopic.

There is also a black and white picture on Flickr but I can't find it at the moment.

Ah right, there's a rmweb forum that has a link to a photo of them but it doesn't seem to work, but you might have better luck

Inter-City Mark 3 Sleepers with ScotRail Blue-Stripe

I've already asked this question on another forum, which has caused a bit of argument. I have received a request to produce overlays for a pair of MkIII Sleepers in Executive Livery but with the ScotRail light blue band. The suggested numbers are SC10578 and SC10610. Now, I have a very vague reco...

www.rmweb.co.uk

It was me that posted the link on rmweb. I deleted my account and all posts so that is maybe why the link doesn't work anymore!

I will look on Flickr when I get time. The pic is hidden in one of the rolling stock galleries and doesn't show up in the search.

 

[hexagon789]

I will look on Flickr when I get time. The pic is hidden in one of the rolling stock galleries and doesn't show up in the search.

I know the photo you mean, it's the only one I've ever seen but it is a pain to find!

 

[eastwestdivide]

...maybe why the link doesn't work anymore!

I think it's rather that the photo in question on that RMWeb thread links to the now-defunct fotopic.

 

[hexagon789]

I think it's rather that the photo in question on that RMWeb thread links to the now-defunct fotopic.

Or because the original RMWeb site the original thread was on is no longer accessible