ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[BRX]

I am rather fed up with the English Cast-offs suggestion, any truth in it is completely outweighed by their superior ambience and very deliberate acquisition.

I also have a sneaking suspicion - though no proof - that the carbon footprint figures are comparing like for like, a 5 car HST as most will eventually be, with say, a singular 158 unit.

EDIT: Much as I lament finding myself criticising the overall desirable suggestion of cutting back on carbon emissions.

It looks like they are using these figures (from the scotrail document linked to)?



But I can't make much sense of them; for example are the kWh/km for the whole fleet or per train or per seat or what? And why are the DMU numbers for energy lower than the ones for HSTs, but higher than for HSTs for CO2e?

They seem quite meaningless without knowing the relative sizes of each fleet and how many kms they each travel.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Just a guess, but would a 170 revving it's guts out to climb Slocht from a standing start whereas a 2 plus 5 HST would bailey break sweat apart from in extreme weather such as snow or high temperatures have anything to do with it? I genuinely don't kno, I'm not a scientist and I'm absolutely no expert on the combustion engine.


The English cast off propaganda against the English needs to stop as well. Where I being cynical, as I increasingly am when it comes to the railway these days might I suggest that they were deliberately trying to make the DMU fleet look better even if they weren't so they could justify not using the HST? I like the HST and what it can offer, it's been a very good product for years but I was never entirely convinced that it was right for scotrail and I've become less convinced as the project has staggered from one problem to another. These issues with fleet reliability which are admittedly not necessarily normal because of staff absence and the number of empty stock moves required for tyre turning simply cement this opinion for me

 

[GaryBrown156]

A quick question about the HST vs DMU potential options.
Does ScotRail still have enough DMU's left in the fleet to fully replace the HST's on all diagrams should they chose to do so?. I like the Class 170 so personally I wouldn't have a problem with reverting back to them on the central belt to highlands services if the HST's are proving to be more trouble than they are worth and/or a lot more environmentally damaging than a DMU. My one and only concern would be the capacity reduction (assuming their replacement would be a single class 170 unit). If somehow they could source enough 170's to run the Glasgow/Edinburgh - Inverness/Aberdeen as 6 car trains then I do not believe that the vast majority of people would object (a train is a train to joe public). I have no idea whether that is even an option though as I am unsure of how many units would be required for such services. I have been told that ScotRail has a surplus of 170's but I don't know if what they have would be sufficient???.

Any information would be much appreciated.

Appoligises also if I've posted this in an inappropriate place. Please move it elsewhere if here is not suitable.

Thanks

 

[47827]

A quick question about the HST vs DMU potential options.
Does ScotRail still have enough DMU's left in the fleet to fully replace the HST's on all diagrams should they chose to do so?. I like the Class 170 so personally I wouldn't have a problem with reverting back to them on the central belt to highlands services if the HST's are proving to be more trouble than they are worth and/or a lot more environmentally damaging than a DMU. My one and only concern would be the capacity reduction (assuming their replacement would be a single class 170 unit). If somehow they could source enough 170's to run the Glasgow/Edinburgh - Inverness/Aberdeen as 6 car trains then I do not believe that the vast majority of people would object (a train is a train to joe public). I have no idea whether that is even an option though as I am unsure of how many units would be required for such services. I have been told that ScotRail has a surplus of 170's but I don't know if what they have would be sufficient???.

Any information would be much appreciated.

Appoligises also if I've posted this in an inappropriate place. Please move it elsewhere if here is not suitable.

Thanks

If you like short formed trains and high risk of cancellation/part cancellation due to stock shortage then perhaps there would be enough to provide a poorer timetable.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

But I can't make much sense of them; for example are the kWh/km for the whole fleet or per train or per seat or what? And why are the DMU numbers for energy lower than the ones for HSTs, but higher than for HSTs for CO2e?

They seem quite meaningless without knowing the relative sizes of each fleet and how many kms they each travel.

Seems pretty simple to me, per kilometre travelled a HST uses 18.65 kWh of energy? Compared to 1.85 for an electric unit?

The kWh will be calculated from the calorific value of fuel burned, or in the case of EMUs simply the electricity they consumed. Then that's divided by the total distance travelled.

 

[Glaswegian]

I am sure that is right, but the figures might be more use if they took account of seat numbers.

 

[HamBuoy]

But I can't make much sense of them; for example are the kWh/km for the whole fleet or per train or per seat or what? And why are the DMU numbers for energy lower than the ones for HSTs, but higher than for HSTs for CO2e?

They seem quite meaningless without knowing the relative sizes of each fleet and how many kms they each travel.

Seems pretty simple to me, per kilometre travelled a HST uses 18.65 kWh of energy? Compared to 1.85 for an electric unit?

The kWh will be calculated from the calorific value of fuel burned, or in the case of EMUs simply the electricity they consumed. Then that's divided by the total distance travelled.

Looking at the ORR's Rail Emissions 2019-20 it looks the CO2e is the total equivalent CO2 emissions in Tonnes for that fleet. So energy consumption (KWh per km) is highest for the HST but because they are a small fleet/ didn't do much running the total CO2 for that fleet/category is low. As the HSTs do more services they could significantly increase Scotrail's emissions (from trains).

 

[Stathern Jc]

The kWh will be calculated from the calorific value of fuel burned, or in the case of EMUs simply the electricity they consumed. Then that's divided by the total distance travelled.

I wonder if the, seemingly impressively low, figure for the EMU consumption it that at the meter at the substation feeding the wires where a more meaningful comparison is obviously the power input by the electricity generator, which is likely to be a complex estimate.
Including the energy taken to generate the electricity the HST feeds to its' traction motors but not for an EMU isn't comparing apples with apples.

I don't doubt that the relative efficiency favours an EMU; but I would like to hear some clarification of the methodology from which figures showing a tenfold difference are obtained.
Are they perhaps taking just a 3 car EMU as the reference? If so, running as a pair the figure would be almost double allowing for a bit less aerodynamic resistance per unit.

 

[Domh245]

I imagine that the numbers are simply calculated by doing total energy consumed (from bills)/total distance travelled but this in effect works out to also be a unit-level number as well.

With a bit of maths, you can figure the following:

	DMU	HST	EMU
amount of energy used kWh*	268,682	109,651	216,098
amount of fuel (l)	25,323	10,335
implied km from "real"	43,550.8 (75mi/day)	5,879.42 (10mi/day)	116,809.5 (200mi/day)

*assuming standard biodiesel mix for diesel vehicles, grid average for EMUs - dividing CO2e by (gross) conversion factor to get energy

I wonder if the, seemingly impressively low, figure for the EMU consumption it that at the meter at the substation feeding the wires where a more meaningful comparison is obviously the power input by the electricity generator, which is likely to be a complex estimate.
Including the energy taken to generate the electricity the HST feeds to its' traction motors but not for an EMU isn't comparing apples with apples.

It says it's taken from EC4T which is onboard IIRC. You can add T&D losses twice (in lieu of more accurate data) - once for Power Station to substation, one for substation to train @ 2x 0.01879 kg CO2e/kWh but then to make it truly apples & apples, you'd need to add the "well-to-tank" figures for diesel @ 0.0588 kg CO2e/kWh gross. The additional CO2e from doing that comes to 8,121kg additional for the total EMU fleet, 6,447kg for the HSTs, 15,798 for the DMUs

 

[Railperf]

I imagine that the numbers are simply calculated by doing total energy consumed (from bills)/total distance travelled but this in effect works out to also be a unit-level number as well.

With a bit of maths, you can figure the following:

	DMU	HST	EMU
amount of energy used kWh*	268,682	109,651	216,098
amount of fuel (l)	25,323	10,335
implied km from "real"	43,550.8 (75mi/day)	5,879.42 (10mi/day)	116,809.5 (200mi/day)

*assuming standard biodiesel mix for diesel vehicles, grid average for EMUs - dividing CO2e by (gross) conversion factor to get energy



It says it's taken from EC4T which is onboard IIRC. You can add T&D losses twice (in lieu of more accurate data) - once for Power Station to substation, one for substation to train @ 2x 0.01879 kg CO2e/kWh but then to make it truly apples & apples, you'd need to add the "well-to-tank" figures for diesel @ 0.0588 kg CO2e/kWh gross. The additional CO2e from doing that comes to 8,121kg additional for the total EMU fleet, 6,447kg for the HSTs, 15,798 for the DMUs

In the meantime. How manu sets available now. Is the situation easing?

 

[Mag_seven]

Just another reminder that we need to try and stay on topic here and limit discussion to what is actually happening with the Scotrail HST introduction programme.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else such as whether it was the correct decision or what should eventually replace them then they are welcome to start a new thread or find a suitable existing one.

thanks

 

[hexagon789]

In the meantime. How manu sets available now. Is the situation easing?

Scot-rail suggests 22 are available (that is not stored, withdrawn or at Donny).

On Tuesday twelve sets were in service, including three 5-car and one set on a single working power car.

 

[Steven_G]

Haven’t seen anything at Cadder since it opened. If that’s correct then clearly a reason why less sets out

 

[scotraildriver]

Haven’t seen anything at Cadder since it opened. If that’s correct then clearly a reason why less sets out

Cadder only has trains on the Nightshift. It's not staffed during the day so you don't see any sets there. Generally between 4 and 6 sets there every night. As planned.

 

[Steven_G]

Cadder only has trains on the Nightshift. It's not staffed during the day so you don't see any sets there. Generally between 4 and 6 sets there every night. As planned.

Thanks

 

[Northhighland]

A quick question about the HST vs DMU potential options.
Does ScotRail still have enough DMU's left in the fleet to fully replace the HST's on all diagrams should they chose to do so?. I like the Class 170 so personally I wouldn't have a problem with reverting back to them on the central belt to highlands services if the HST's are proving to be more trouble than they are worth and/or a lot more environmentally damaging than a DMU. My one and only concern would be the capacity reduction (assuming their replacement would be a single class 170 unit). If somehow they could source enough 170's to run the Glasgow/Edinburgh - Inverness/Aberdeen as 6 car trains then I do not believe that the vast majority of people would object (a train is a train to joe public). I have no idea whether that is even an option though as I am unsure of how many units would be required for such services. I have been told that ScotRail has a surplus of 170's but I don't know if what they have would be sufficient???.

Any information would be much appreciated.

Appoligises also if I've posted this in an inappropriate place. Please move it elsewhere if here is not suitable.

Thanks

Think anyone travelling on an Inverness south services stopping at Dalwhinnie on a winters night would maybe not agree. Or standing on a 170 from Edinburgh to Perth.

HST sets are here and are going nowhere. Effort has to be on getting them delivering reliably and if that is achieved then we will have a much better service.

HST is a good product. Very comfortable journey and liked by the public.

 

[Roast Veg]

A good source of biofuel might do the climate credentials of the HSTs some favours.

 

[fgwrich]

Think anyone travelling on an Inverness south services stopping at Dalwhinnie on a winters night would maybe not agree. Or standing on a 170 from Edinburgh to Perth.

HST sets are here and are going nowhere. Effort has to be on getting them delivering reliably and if that is achieved then we will have a much better service.

HST is a good product. Very comfortable journey and liked by the public.

Agreed. I’ve stood from Inverness to Dunkeld before during the 170 era. And that was not a pleasant trip - enough to say I bailed at Perth to reach Edinburgh via a slower, but more spacious 158 via Fife.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. I’ve stood from Inverness to Dunkeld before during the 170 era. And that was not a pleasant trip - enough to say I bailed at Perth to reach Edinburgh via a slower, but more spacious 158 via Fife.

But then that's not a problem with DMUs, it's a problem with DMUs that are too short.

If they were 6-car rather than 3-car formations, there'd not be a problem.

 

[marks87]

But then that's not a problem with DMUs, it's a problem with DMUs that are too short.

If they were 6-car rather than 3-car formations, there'd not be a problem.

Even if the 170s always ran as 6-car formations, they’re still unsuitable for inter-city travel.

Those 2/3rds doors are not fun in the middle of winter.

 

[Wynd]

The 170 is vile(NVH and lack of plugs) and its fantastic that SR have introduced HST's, its actually trans-formative and I for one cannot wait for them all to become 5 Carriage sets.

I used to be on these exact machines daily from Reading and can confirm they were worked very hard by crews. That they needed a little TLC from Haymarket is no surprise.

Those fuel figures are wide open for scrutiny.

Lets remember why these were introduced, because passengers wanted them and Scotrail were losing revenue to passengers skipping the SR services and waiting for LNER ones, particularly at Aberdeen.

Reading the above it sounds as though Haymarket or Scotrail could do with another wheel lathe? Might I suggest Aberdeen.... or even Inverurie. Spread the jobs around a bit.

 

[43096]

The 170 is vile(NVH and lack of plugs) and its fantastic that SR have introduced HST's, its actually trans-formative and I for one cannot wait for them all to become 5 Carriage sets.

You’ll be waiting a long time, then, as it’s never been the plan for all the sets to be 5-car.

 

[hexagon789]

As a further to discussion above re number of sets out:

On Wednesday - ten, including two 5-car
On Thursday - twelve, including three 5-car
Today, Friday - fourteen, including three 5-car

 

[Dfatcontroller]

As a further to discussion above re number of sets out:

On Wednesday - ten, including two 5-car
On Thursday - twelve, including three 5-car
Today, Friday - fourteen, including three 5-car

From a diagrammed requirement of 17.

This changes to 16 from tomorrow 14/02.

 

[hooky3]

From a diagrammed requirement of 17.

This changes to 16 from tomorrow 14/02.

so there is 1 less HST diagram from tomorrow? what was that one’s workings?

 

[Dfatcontroller]

so there is 1 less HST diagram from tomorrow? what was that one’s workings?

Apologies. 16 last week; 16 this week.

 

[hexagon789]

Apologies. 16 last week; 16 this week.

So, no change then?

 

[Dfatcontroller]

So, no change then?

I haven't compared to see if the services worked remain the same. Just the diagrammed requirement.

 

[hexagon789]

Number of sets out:

Saturday 12th - 15, including 4 five-car
Sunday 13th - 6, including 2 five-car
Today (Mon 14th) - 13*, including 3 five-car

*one set subbed by a Class 170 part diagram.

 

[InOban]

Perhaps OT, but scotrail are tweeting that seat reservations have resumed.