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Scotrail mixing 158 & 170 on the same set?
- Thread starter Deltic1961
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Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, there lived the legend of 'Joined-up Thinking'....
Alas, not any more.
"What have you got? Ooh, we'll have something completely different and totally non-compatible then, please", being the established way of doing things for the last decade or two.
Of course, common sense uniformity has now finally returned after a prolonged absence; alas regretfully in the form of utterly underwhelmimg intercity stock.
Anyway, yes, 158s & 170s. Nice, aren't they!
Alas, not any more.
"What have you got? Ooh, we'll have something completely different and totally non-compatible then, please", being the established way of doing things for the last decade or two.
Of course, common sense uniformity has now finally returned after a prolonged absence; alas regretfully in the form of utterly underwhelmimg intercity stock.
Anyway, yes, 158s & 170s. Nice, aren't they!
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STEVIEBOY1
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No, the SCR-Settle to Carlisle Railway, Northern Trains.
Oh I must’ve dreamt that turn we used to have on the Harrogate line with the booked 170+144.
Pacers can work with 158’s and they did quite often on the Manchester vic - Leeds services. The biggest problem was the brakes. Selecting step 1 brake on a pacer, you could feel the 158 pushing.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Pacers can work with all 15x classes plus 170s.
How much truth was there in the story that whilst 14x was technically compatible with 15x, in practice doing so made them very, very unhappy?
They worked pretty well together most of the time to be honest. One little gremlin was if you put the 15x into emergency it would put the hazard lights on on the 14x.How much truth was there in the story that whilst 14x was technically compatible with 15x, in practice doing so made them very, very unhappy?
Before the 14x got the hydraulic gearboxes I believe they were a pain.
D6130
Established Member
That's why the instruction was to initially brake in step 2 when you were driving a Pacer (tread braked) with a 158 (disc braked and with more wheels) coupled on the rear. Unfortunately, when approaching a station stop or signal on a downgrade during the leaf fall season, this had the undesirable effect of putting the pacer into an immediate and sometimes uncontrollable slide. We used to have a similar problem with a 153 (tread) leading a 158 (disc) on the 07 15 Ribblehead-Leeds on damp autumn mornings approaching Horton-in-Ribblesdale, Settle, Gargrave and Bingley. The only solution was to brake much, much earlier than usual - delaying the train - and hoping that you managed to stop. (Once or twice - early in my driving career - I didn't!).
The main problem that I experienced was with the couplings momentarily losing electrical contact and initiating an emergency brake application when rounding sharp curves with old, badly-maintained pointwork (Leeds West End pre-2001 and Carlisle-London Road Junction in particular). However that was just as likely to happen with two pacers coupled as with a pacer and a sprinter.How much truth was there in the story that whilst 14x was technically compatible with 15x, in practice doing so made them very, very unhappy?
Razorblades
Member
Not usually abbreviated to SCR, but S&C!
I never put them initially into 2 for that very reason. Let the diaphragms open slowly.
Brewery curve was always a bad one for couplers to dump the brakes. Once they were all modded though it was fine.
I just hated 153’s. The slow releasing brakes were a pain.
D6130
Established Member
No, it was a conversion thing. The 153s were given two separate brake control units - one for each bogie - and they never seemed to synchronise properly. One always released much more slowly than the other.
No they are just slow. The 155’s seemed to always have problems with the speed probes. The speedos would jump 5mph now and then.
They probably perform much better now they’re working the flatlands of Hull - York and Wolds Coast. They were painfully slow out of Bradford Interchange and up the Calder Valley.
See various other previous posts (including my own), 14x-170 isn't possible.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
I asked someone I know and yes, seemingly not. Though according to them its due to a general ban on Pacers working with units equipped with enhanced energency braking and some wiring incompatibilities. Though nominally the multi working system itself should tolerate either but in practice it doesn't.
I suppose the Pacer might not be able to take the extra brakeforce without some stressing?
Jordan1296
Member
There is certainly two examples in the timetable from Aberdeen where this should happen.
The 0619 to Huntly *should* be made up of 7 carriages; 2x158 and 1x170. The service divides at Inverurie and the 158s carry on to Huntly for the 0747 to Aberdeen and the 170 returns to Aberdeen as the 0718, before heading north to Inverness at 0823.
The other example is the 1439 Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness via Aberdeen. Between Glasgow & Aberdeen, the service is booked as a 170, gaining a 158 train on arrival at Aberdeen for 1727. The train then divides at Inverness and the 170 goes south to Glasgow. This service is earmarked to transferred over to a 5-car HST when sufficient rolling stock allows. Of course there are occasional exceptions, but this is how it should be.
158/170 couplings are also common between Dundee/Perth and the Central Belt and on the Borders line too.
Deltic1961
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Is each unit self powered or does one set pull the other?
Self powered.
Our ex Welsh 170273 has stickers in the cabs saying that it can mechanically couple to 14x for emergency rescue purposes only.
I was always under the impression that 170 and 14x was barred.
15x units do need mods to work with 170s though. Our ex Northern 156s (470/473/497/498) aren't properly compatible with 170s and various issues occur when they're coupled - one of which is that the door hustle alarms sound constantly on the 156 above 9 mph. One of the mods concerns being able to undertake the brake continuity test after coupling.
I was always under the impression that 170 and 14x was barred.
15x units do need mods to work with 170s though. Our ex Northern 156s (470/473/497/498) aren't properly compatible with 170s and various issues occur when they're coupled - one of which is that the door hustle alarms sound constantly on the 156 above 9 mph. One of the mods concerns being able to undertake the brake continuity test after coupling.
What’s the issue with the brake continuity?
Northern and other tocs train to trap the brake to “check continuity” but the reality is EP brakes are self testing and will only give brake release if there is continuity.
It's a mod that, provided the reverser is in neutral without a door release allows the brakes to drop with a door open for the purpose of getting out to observe that they've also dropped in the other unit.
That's how it was put to me anyway. Not a technical person but I know 153s were prone to rolling away if a particular set of circumstances aligned with the driver putting the reverser in neutral before the guard released the doors.
I know EP brakes are meant to be self proving but I have known 15x to develop dragging brakes on occasion - one of our 158s has had several issues over the years, on one occasion I had it stopped when it passed me and filled my train with acrid smoke
Wouldn’t the brake dump? I don’t think you can trap the brake on a 158.It's a mod that, provided the reverser is in neutral without a door release allows the brakes to drop with a door open for the purpose of getting out to observe that they've also dropped in the other unit.
That's how it was put to me anyway. Not a technical person but I know 153s were prone to rolling away if a particular set of circumstances aligned with the driver putting the reverser in neutral before the guard released the doors.
I know EP brakes are meant to be self proving but I have known 15x to develop dragging brakes on occasion - one of our 158s has had several issues over the years, on one occasion I had it stopped when it passed me and filled my train with acrid smoke
Yes that was a problem on 14x and 150, 153 and 156. I’m not sure about the 155 now they’ve been fitted with door interlock.
At least the acrid smell would’ve drowned out the smell of the CET tanks xD
Not sure to be honest! We couple 17x to 15x only occasionally in traffic and as a guard bar locking them up and opening the gangway doors if I'm feeling helpful I only observe. It's certainly a requirement when coupling to check the brake drops from step 3 to 2 to 1 in both units, but on 153/6/8 which is what we had before you could just walk through the gangway door to check.
There's certainly some modification to the 15xs to allow them to be properly compatible though.
Signing both 170’s, and 14x’s (until they were withdrawn) Northern’s policy was they must not be coupled in service, even going ECS to Neville Hill was a no no. So there wouldn’t be a diagram booked for 170+144 or there would certainly be questions asked.
DaventryRabbit
Member
Believe it was 0539 Dundee - Aberdeen. I travelled on it once in order to score the rare crossover at Carnoustie. On that occasion it was 158 + 170 and the 170 was detached at Carnoustie to form 0603 back to Dundee via all the small halts
Anonymous10
Established Member
tfw with prm 153 and pacer was common too
O L Leigh
Established Member
The very first time I saw a Cl170 it was many years ago on a foray north of the border to see friends near Aberdeen, and that one was lashed up to a Cl158.
I’m unsure what the incompatibilities with Sprinters might be, but I do know that Central Trains had to instal a changeover switch on their Cl156s to permit multiple working with Cl170s. I would expect that doors would be an issue as alluded to above, with door warbles sounding constantly for example. It was a hassle when lashing up refurbed Cl315s to Cl317s because the modern door systems fitted on refurb played merry hell with the unmodified Cl317.
But even within the class Cl170s can be a funny sort. Tyseley found that the former MML Cl170/1s were incompatible with their own fleet of /5s and /6s and needed an almost complete rewire to make them work together. It was quite serious to start off with, with doors opening on opposite sides among other hilarious consequences.
As for Pacers, I can only echo what’s been said already. It’s mechanical only for assistance purposes and nothing more.
Er, well…
A few years a go I had a long natter with a former Tyseley fitter who was there under Central Trains. He told me that the procedure for ECS workings back then was simply to clip units together at New St until the platform was full and then just send them to the shed.
One evening a driver came in with a line of Cl158s complaining that there wasn’t much puff in the formation. The fitters went down to have a look and found a Cl150 tied on at the back with huge wheelflats and burrs on each wheel. He said they had to take angle grinders to them before it could be moved onto the “factory”. Turns out whoever had coupled it up had forgotten to press the couple button, but it clearly doesn’t prevent his colleague at the other end from getting the brakes off.
I’m unsure what the incompatibilities with Sprinters might be, but I do know that Central Trains had to instal a changeover switch on their Cl156s to permit multiple working with Cl170s. I would expect that doors would be an issue as alluded to above, with door warbles sounding constantly for example. It was a hassle when lashing up refurbed Cl315s to Cl317s because the modern door systems fitted on refurb played merry hell with the unmodified Cl317.
But even within the class Cl170s can be a funny sort. Tyseley found that the former MML Cl170/1s were incompatible with their own fleet of /5s and /6s and needed an almost complete rewire to make them work together. It was quite serious to start off with, with doors opening on opposite sides among other hilarious consequences.
As for Pacers, I can only echo what’s been said already. It’s mechanical only for assistance purposes and nothing more.
Er, well…
A few years a go I had a long natter with a former Tyseley fitter who was there under Central Trains. He told me that the procedure for ECS workings back then was simply to clip units together at New St until the platform was full and then just send them to the shed.
One evening a driver came in with a line of Cl158s complaining that there wasn’t much puff in the formation. The fitters went down to have a look and found a Cl150 tied on at the back with huge wheelflats and burrs on each wheel. He said they had to take angle grinders to them before it could be moved onto the “factory”. Turns out whoever had coupled it up had forgotten to press the couple button, but it clearly doesn’t prevent his colleague at the other end from getting the brakes off.
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