Scotrail - Post Covid Consultation - Service Reductions

[kez19]

Isn't that the whole point of a Consultation? To ask what people think/want?

I expect if it’s a consultation then at least have more than one question, maybe discuss on how it might impact on you as a customer?

How are you meant to work out what customers say with just one question? ie changes reflect positive/negative and why? If it was a proper consultation I would have expected (possibly pending on area in question) maybe at least 5 or to go into detail what the impacts might be or about to happen?

For me it just came across as pathetic - do Scotrail or the even soon to be run by Scottish Government care about the customers of the services or do they not give a toss?

Is the new TV advert "Let's get back on track" not being shown in Scotland?

I've not been to Scotland for a few years but it seems the only benefit from these changes is that Polmont and Linlithgow get their trains to Stirling back.

Found that ad, that will never be shown up here on the likes of STV, surprised come to think about you expect Scotrail to jump on this though, as during COVID we were bombarded with keeping us safe with Scotrail.

 

[Journeyman]

Bit rich stating in the consultation document that they want to reduce emissions when they’ve got 2 massive V16 engines dragging deliberately empty coaches round the country.
Personally, I’d love to see a calculation of how long it would take to pay back the investment in something like an 800 or 755 vs the extra fuel & maintenance costs of running the HST fleet, bearing in mind either of the bi-mode units could use the ever extending OHLE.

Oh, god, totally. I've been ripped to pieces for saying it, but the HST project was a disaster and should never have got off the drawing board.

 

[Class 170101]

You’d hope so, but given how flaky things seemed to be on this route before Covid, I suspect travellers doing the through journey may have to become familiar with the shops and pubs around Grahamston. Same with Anniesland, if that’s going to be 1TPH and first in the firing line whenever there’s a problem then it’ll be 1 train per some hours.


There’s no suggestion in any of this about right-sizing trains, e.g. running 3 vs 6 off peak. BR discovered 30 odd years ago that shorter, more frequent, trains can drive demand, ScotRail seem to have decided that rather than sort their staffing problems they’re going to run fewer, longer, trains, but bleat about empty seat miles.

Not just BR but Virgin Cross Country as well. Went from a broadly hourly HST length train to 4/5 car Voyagers every 30 minutes and that increased demand massively.

Performance has rocketed with the current timetable.

There is a trade off between performance and running trains. You can have well performing services but if few people are on them why operate them as they cost more than they bring in revenue. The Railway needs to provide and be allowed to provide what the customer wants and not provide what the politicans think the customer wants.

 

[Falcon1200]

Indeed. I had the same on the 0700 Glasgow - Inverness and the 1102 Inverness - Aberdeen. 4-car HST on both with 1st class unavailable. Presumably the allusion to increased spacing for social distancing was entirely meant for staff and the message just didn't make that clear. Now I don't begrudge them that but an entire carriage seems faintly ridiculous...

That seems to have been the case throughout Covid, and continues with no end in sight - It was totally unnecessary then, and is even more so now; How much separation from passengers is needed to keep the Guard 'safe', alternatively how many Scotrail staff travel pass on each HST service ?

Is the new TV advert "Let's get back on track" not being shown in Scotland?

Yes, I have seen it several times here in Scotland, albeit on 'national' channels rather than Scottish ones.

 

[Starmill]

Economically these cuts in opex are really quite daft too. It'd make much more sense to withdraw the Far North and Kyle of Lochalsh trains, replacing them with an Inverness - Dingwall service, withdraw the Stranraer trains, replacing them with a Girvan - Kilmarnock service, and withdraw the West Highland line services except for Summer Friday - Monday, but with trains redesigned for tourists and a big price rise. The Caledonian Sleeper contract should also be terminated at the next available point to save further opex.

Kyle of Lochalsh could suit excursion trains, but Dingwall to Wick and Thurso and Girvan to Stranraer could be mothballed. The Parliament could give Network Rail a new statutory duty to own and reserve the land necessary to restore the train services that ran in 2019 one day, except for at Stranraer Harbour.

All of this would save a reasonable amount annually which should be used to support the services seeing reductions across the central belt. This would be better for Scotland's economy and some increase in bus subsidy could help fill gaps in the infrequent lost train services. Of course I'd prefer for the Scottish Government to just keep spending more and more money every year on rail but fundamentally that's not likely to happen.

 

[ld0595]

The Scotrail website says 1st class is declassified on their trains to help with more capacity for social distancing. However, I’m currently on the 0929 Edinburgh-Aberdeen on a 4-car 125, and the first class carriage is taped off and doors locked.

Had the same on an Edinburgh to Glasgow service last week. All first class doors locked out of use. Strangely they were unlocked earlier in the pandemic but no more it seems.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I've now brought this to the attention of Alex cole-hamilton MSP whose constituency both covers my home and also show the area containing South gyle, Edinburgh gateway and dalmeny stations. His South Queensferry constituents are going to have even more trouble than they already do with overcrowding and and probably punctuality when 50% of their rail service is stuffed full of passengers from stations north of Kirkcaldy and markinch.

I wonder if in in future they will introduce a markinch to Edinburgh semi fast service calling Kirkcaldy inverkeithing and gateway only before Haymarket? Even if they introduced this next may using a158 shuttling up and down on its own all day so only requiring one guard and one driver it would be well filled and would relieve pressure on the all stops stuff

 

[Scotrail314209]

They do seem intent on running this network into the ground don't they?

I think they don't want to address the staff shortages as it saves them a bit of extra money, when really they should be. It sounds like they don't want to hire more staff...

Slowing down the Perth and Dundee service is a bad move, a very bad move.

 

[Deltic1961]

Totally self destructing.

Seems a thing these days where businesses actually find their customers to be their biggest inconvenience, forgetting that of course that the punters bring in the money that keeps the business going.

Abellio are bad enough, but I utterly dread to think what will happen under control of Scottish Government. Their past form gives me no confidence whatsoever.

 

[kez19]

Totally self destructing.

Seems a thing these days where businesses actually find their customers to be their biggest inconvenience, forgetting that of course that the punters bring in the money that keeps the business going.

Abellio are bad enough, but I utterly dread to think what will happen under control of Scottish Government. Their past form gives me no confidence whatsoever.

Yet give it time, they’ll still cry to the media asking “where did our customers go?” and blame people using their cars or alternative transport such as a bus.

I posted upthread what the former Transport Minister said who shall remain nameless in terms of the future of Scotrail but it seems those ideas have been thrown to the gutter.

 

[Journeyman]

"It's all Westminster's fault" incoming in 5...4...3...2...1...

 

[kez19]

They do seem intent on running this network into the ground don't they?

I think they don't want to address the staff shortages as it saves them a bit of extra money, when really they should be. It sounds like they don't want to hire more staff...

Slowing down the Perth and Dundee service is a bad move, a very bad move.

Yet the media in Scotland just look away than holding them to account why?

I wonder if locals (I say in this regardless where you stay in Scotland), kicked up a fuss would the likes of BBC Scotland and STV actually care what people thought or they be happy bootlicking the politicians and saying these cuts are saving us money etc than looking at it deeper?

I doubt on the other the media would care as they can’t have this being a negative but would still spin a positive out of it.

"It's all Westminster's fault" incoming in 5...4...3...2...1...

And Abellios too!! Mind Abellio will get the brunt as they are about to hand the keys over - look squirrel!

 

[kylemore]

"It's all Westminster's fault" incoming in 5...4...3...2...1...

You seem to be the only one that's mentioned it so far.

As an Independence supporter I'm only too well aware of the current SG's shortcomings.

 

[nw1]

Well what do you expect when you spend the best part of a year telling prospective passengers to "go away" or put up aggressive signs advising that the railways are for "Essential Travel Only". We are now starting to pay the price of lockdowns.

Not Scotland, but SWR did that in June 2020. This was at a time when Covid cases were pretty low having declined steeply in May. "Please do not use our trains for leisure" or some such.

After these notices disappeared, I used SWR in July 2020 which was probably the lowest point for Covid infections last year. The trains were still empty. Seems the railway has lost a lot of money through un-necessarily putting people off travelling during low-Covid periods.

There is so much inconsistency. We've got the 'delta' mutation this summer yet there doesn't even appear to be a requirement for masks. In June 2020 things were low-risk but SWR was busy telling people they must not use the train for non-essential purposes.

 

[haggishunter]

Economically these cuts in opex are really quite daft too. It'd make much more sense to withdraw the Far North and Kyle of Lochalsh trains, replacing them with an Inverness - Dingwall service, withdraw the Stranraer trains, replacing them with a Girvan - Kilmarnock service, and withdraw the West Highland line services except for Summer Friday - Monday, but with trains redesigned for tourists and a big price rise. The Caledonian Sleeper contract should also be terminated at the next available point to save further opex.

Got to love these posters not based in Scotland wanting half of Scotland to lose what rail service it already has. The North and West Highlands need more and better connectivity, not less.

If you look at the detailed per route figures, the per passenger subsidy on the WHL is around a third of that for the local services into Aberdeen. Demand for between a third and half the year has been suppressed by lack of capacity on that route. Even though the refurb of the 156s has been modest, the trains are cleaner and look in much better condition and the addition of power sockets and wifi make them more appealing. Between the wifi and mobile its possible to work online on a good proportion of the route.

If things were rejigged to offer better capacity and passenger facilities, first class or a scenic class at a modest premium could help close the revenue gap. Those better tourist trains operating year round would provide facilities that would make the WHL significantly more appealing to residents of the areas it serves as a year round transport option. While traditional commuting will drop off, with more working from 'home' and more ability to work on the move, trains that are comfortable, well equipped with power sockets, tables, good internet connectivity and catering have the potential to attract modal shift even where journey times are not that competitive with road.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Got to love these posters not based in Scotland wanting half of Scotland to lose what rail service it already has. The North and West Highlands need more and better connectivity, not less.

If you look at the detailed per route figures, the per passenger subsidy on the WHL is around a third of that for the local services into Aberdeen. Demand for between a third and half the year has been suppressed by lack of capacity on that route. Even though the refurb of the 156s has been modest, the trains are cleaner and look in much better condition and the addition of power sockets and wifi make them more appealing. Between the wifi and mobile its possible to work online on a good proportion of the route.

If things were rejigged to offer better capacity and passenger facilities, first class or a scenic class at a modest premium could help close the revenue gap. Those better tourist trains operating year round would provide facilities that would make the WHL significantly more appealing to residents of the areas it serves as a year round transport option. While traditional commuting will drop off, with more working from 'home' and more ability to work on the move, trains that are comfortable, well equipped with power sockets, tables, good internet connectivity and catering have the potential to attract modal shift even where journey times are not that competitive with road.

Anyone who wants the WHL and Far North cut should do their research.

Even in Winter, it's not uncommon to be on a busy Oban or Fort William service. They also forget that the line isn't just for tourists, but also rural communities such as Rannoch who rely on the service to get their essentials, such as visit the doctors, do their weekly shop. Cutting that will cut off their lifeline service.

It's the same at the southern end. It gives Oban and rural communities a good link to Glasgow, meaning they can go and see a show, as well as shop.

Same case stands for the Far North.

 

[Starmill]

Even in Winter, it's not uncommon to be on a busy Oban or Fort William service.

It has very little to do with how many people are on the train, and a lot to do with how much they've paid and how much it costs to provide the service.

The North and West Highlands need more and better connectivity, not less.

I would agree with that in principle, however it would appear that the Scottish Government aren't willing to fund this in a post-Covid world, and have instead decided to cut urban and suburban routes because politics are easier there.

 

[30907]

Reversion to the Stirling route will add about 20 minutes to the journey time. For example, the evening train from Edinburgh to Inverness took 3h 19min in 2019 (Edinburgh dep 1742, Inverness arr 2101) compared to 3h 41min in the proposed 2022 timetable (Edinburgh dep 1733, Inverness arr 2114). This is a retrograde step.

Maybe, but that is due to extra stops and pathing; the diversion via Stirling itself costs about a minute.

 

[DunsBus]

Totally self destructing.

Seems a thing these days where businesses actually find their customers to be their biggest inconvenience, forgetting that of course that the punters bring in the money that keeps the business going.

Abellio are bad enough, but I utterly dread to think what will happen under control of Scottish Government. Their past form gives me no confidence whatsoever.

You can't help but wonder if the cutting of services on the Borders line is politically-motivated, as south of Middleton Moor is represented by a Tory MP and an SNP MSP. We all know that the SNP hate the Tories with a passion, which is why we see token investment by the SG in the Borders.

 

[hexagon789]

Maybe, but that is due to extra stops and pathing; the diversion via Stirling itself costs about a minute.

Indeed, when there were Edinburgh-Inverness services by both routes they were on essentially identical timings to Perth.

 

[snookertam]

If you think this hasn't been signed off by Transport Scotland you're being very naive. They set the timetable.

So what's the consultation for then? Is it a big charade?

If what you are saying is correct, then they're every bit as much to blame as ScotRail.

 

[GALLANTON]

So what's the consultation for then? Is it a big charade?

If what you are saying is correct, then they're every bit as much to blame as ScotRail.

IIRC Transport Scotland(and equally the DaFT in England) have always set the timetables. You can hardly blame Abellio(it's not Scotrail, ScotRail is just a brand) for doing what Transport Scotland tell them to do.

 

[backontrack]

Breaking news: Dunfermline announces bids for city status, ScotRail hastily revises draft timetable to divert Aberdeen-bound Inter7City HSTs via Lochgelly, calling at all stations.

Economically these cuts in opex are really quite daft too. It'd make much more sense to withdraw the Far North and Kyle of Lochalsh trains, replacing them with an Inverness - Dingwall service, withdraw the Stranraer trains, replacing them with a Girvan - Kilmarnock service, and withdraw the West Highland line services except for Summer Friday - Monday, but with trains redesigned for tourists and a big price rise. The Caledonian Sleeper contract should also be terminated at the next available point to save further opex.

Kyle of Lochalsh could suit excursion trains, but Dingwall to Wick and Thurso and Girvan to Stranraer could be mothballed. The Parliament could give Network Rail a new statutory duty to own and reserve the land necessary to restore the train services that ran in 2019 one day, except for at Stranraer Harbour.

All of this would save a reasonable amount annually which should be used to support the services seeing reductions across the central belt. This would be better for Scotland's economy and some increase in bus subsidy could help fill gaps in the infrequent lost train services. Of course I'd prefer for the Scottish Government to just keep spending more and more money every year on rail but fundamentally that's not likely to happen.

I was literally on the Far North Line today and it was well stuffed. I'm sick to death of people doing Far North Line closure arguments, the line should be kept. End of.

 

[Starmill]

So what's the consultation for then? Is it a big charade?

If what you are saying is correct, then they're every bit as much to blame as ScotRail.

It's a part of their role to consult with stakeholders.

In what way might they not be 'to blame' for opex cuts they're responsible for implementing?

 

[backontrack]

Anyone who wants the WHL and Far North cut should do their research.

Even in Winter, it's not uncommon to be on a busy Oban or Fort William service. They also forget that the line isn't just for tourists, but also rural communities such as Rannoch who rely on the service to get their essentials, such as visit the doctors, do their weekly shop. Cutting that will cut off their lifeline service.

It's the same at the southern end. It gives Oban and rural communities a good link to Glasgow, meaning they can go and see a show, as well as shop.

Same case stands for the Far North.

This is very true and it's also instructive that the Far North Line serves a greater population than the Oban and Mallaig branches of the WHL put together and also has a significant ferry link, yet it's the one people want to close (but the Kyle can stay? It's just as scenic as the other two if we want to go down that route too.)

Still, what this boils down to is Scotgov's unwillingness to fund train services. There's a difference between cuts to frequency and total service reduction - maybe you could cut to two a day north of Tain - no need to close. This whole recast feels like something hashed out in the Speculative Ideas section, for someone's idea for a new Edinburgh-Perth service via Dunfermline...

 

[Starmill]

I was literally on the Far North Line today and it was well stuffed. I'm sick to death of people doing Far North Line closure arguments, the line should be kept. End of.

It's reasonable to consider subsidising its operations, I quite agree. But how much subsidy are the Scottish Government willing to provide? And how is that best spent?

 

[alex397]

I politely tweeted Scotrail, asking them why the 1st class carriage was closed off. The reply was:

Hi there, following the easement of restrictions, we're working to reopen this as soon as possible. Apologies if this is unavailable to you on your journey today.

I’m still not exactly sure why it was taped off. Surely either declassify it or classify it?

 

[backontrack]

It's reasonable to consider subsidising its operations, I quite agree. But how much subsidy are the Scottish Government willing to provide? And how is that best spent?

If they want to reduce the subsidy, reduce the service and shut the request stops - don't close it outright. I think the maintained FNL service level is less to do with winning votes and more to do with the idea of the social railway/making sure rural areas aren't geographically disenfranchised. It's a lifeline. There always has to be a balance struck so I was surprised that Wick didn't drop to 3tpd for example.

 

[kez19]

I politely tweeted Scotrail, asking them why the 1st class carriage was closed off. The reply was:

I’m still not exactly sure why it was taped off. Surely either declassify it or classify it?

Are customers still getting offered first class tickets on app/site or has that been abandoned since first lockdown?

The reply seemed to look more of - thanks for noticing, but deflect from answering your question

 

[Northhighland]

So all the promised improvements between Inverness and Central belt scrapped. After all the noise and money we don’t even get an Inter7city service still have 170’s in some services.

Highland's being seriously sold short here. As is Aberdeen. When that is added to the backsliding happening on dualling the A9 and A96 we are not getting anything like what was promised.

A serious missed opportunity to use Covid to drive modal shift.

If they want to reduce the subsidy, reduce the service and shut the request stops - don't close it outright. I think the maintained FNL service level is less to do with winning votes and more to do with the idea of the social railway/making sure rural areas aren't geographically disenfranchised. There always has to be a balance struck so I was surprised that Wick didn't drop to 3tpd for example.

Drop service any further and might as well close it. As a functioning transport link to Inverness it is so long many people from Caithness join the train in Helmsdale.