ScotRail request stop buttons at stations

[Mojo]

Just seen this on Network Rail Twitter page.

https://twitter.com/networkrailscot/status/1475863361636081666?s=21

At remote stations on the Far North Line, passengers will soon request trains to stop using a radio system linked to the train driver’s cab.

Does anyone have any more information about how it will work, what is the rationale (are they planning this will enable them to speed up the timetable)?

Picture shows an array of machines that look similar to modern TVMs, showing departure boards for a variety of stations, and a button on them.

 

[najaB]

I imagine this is possible since the Far North line already uses radio-based signalling. It could speed up the timetable by a few minutes end to end as they could pass the request stops at close to line speed.

Interesting that there are eight machines pictured as there aren't that many request stops (seven currently, I think) - are they introducing another one?

Edit: I forgot that Rogart has two platforms.

Edit: Also, minor point but it's not a good look that they're all showing different times in the top right!

 

[3973EXL]

Scotscalder, Altnabreac, Kinbrace, Kildonan, Dunrobin Castle, Rogart, Invershin and Culrain will all have the new systems installed.

This will enhance the current operation of the railway by allowing passengers to request the next train stop at these stations using a radio system linked to the driver’s cab.

Due to their geographical remoteness, patronage at these stations is amongst the lowest in the UK and consequently they operate on a ‘request to stop’ basis – currently requiring the need to hand signal approaching trains to stop.

The addition of the kiosks will allow passengers arriving at the stations to make their requests direct to the driver’s cab; removing the need to hand-signal, and introduces a system which is more user-friendly and will improve operational performance.

This new equipment is planned to go live across all eight ‘request-to-stop’ stations on the line from Summer 2022. Scotscalder has been selected as a trial location where a period of dual running will extensively test the reliability of the enhanced system prior to it being rolled-out.

As well as the installation of the ‘request to stop kiosks’ Network Rail will also upgrade existing radio communication masts and antenna and install new equipment at Muir of Ord and Wick stations to enhance radio coverage.

This will improve the reliability and resilience of the communications network across the route which will improve the overall passenger experience for those travelling on the line.

Waving good-bye to hand-signal stops on Far North Line (networkrailmediacentre.co.uk)

 

[najaB]

Waving good-bye to hand-signal stops on Far North Line (networkrailmediacentre.co.uk)

Ah.. Dunrobin Castle, forgot about that one.

 

[JGurney]

I noticed these at a request halt on the Salzberger Lokalbahn (Arnsdorf .b Lamprechtshausen https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@47.9698148,12.9341295,374m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en&authuser=0). There was a panel inside the shelter with two buttons: the user pressed one according to the direction they wanted to go to request the train to stop. I don't know how it was worked - perhaps set a signal to red or sent a message to the cab?

I suppose the rationale is to allow unrequested trains to pass at higher speeds, to avoid danger from people who fear the driver might not see them who stand at the edge of the platform to wave (perhaps with arm extended beyond the platform edge) and to suit disabled people who may not be able to wave clearly.

 

[kentuckytony]

Good idea.

 

[AlterEgo]

What if someone can’t use the machines? Will trains just go at line speed past all the request stops that don’t have a call initiated?

 

[The exile]

A good idea if it works reliably and can cope with last minute arrivals ( by people). Only feasible where there isn’t a local idiot population who get their kicks out of playing with buttons, though!

 

[Watershed]

What if someone can’t use the machines? Will trains just go at line speed past all the request stops that don’t have a call initiated?

I also hope there is clear signage about the need to use these machines. Although, either way, there will sadly be some people who won't realise and will see their train 'hurtling' through at linespeed. A rather hefty delay if so!

 

[najaB]

What if someone can’t use the machines? Will trains just go at line speed past all the request stops that don’t have a call initiated?

I can't think of a situation where someone could raise their hands to attract the attention of a driver but couldn't push a button.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I read the twitter thread too.

Mixed thoughts.

It seems like a good idea provided they are 100% reliable. Is there a means of confirming back to the intending passenger 'request stop accepted'? Something along the lines of the station display changing from "1000 to Thurso - calls on request - on time" to "1000 to Thurso - request to stop accepted - on time".

Imagine pressing the button but the driver not receiving the message. Train now approaches at full line speed, rather than current precautionary 'expect to stop' speed, driver has the choice of ignoring the passenger or a full brake application.

 

[Dai Corner]

What if there was a fault with the machine, or a power/communications failure?

 

[najaB]

What if there was a fault with the machine, or a power/communications failure?

The usual approach is to fail safe - so if there's no positive communication with the machine the driver should get an instruction to stop. The one failure mode that would be difficult to mitigate is a faulty button.

 

[185]

In Tenerife, the bus stops on the TF1 motorway have a button linked to a simple, illuminated 'BUS' sign 1km before the bus stop, simple, efficient, very basic - reliant on just a light bulb, a long cable and power. Having something reliant on an already complicated piece of transmitter based kit is just asking for problems.

 

[The exile]

In Tenerife, the bus stops on the TF1 motorway have a button linked to a simple, illuminated 'BUS' sign 1km before the bus stop, simple, efficient, very basic - reliant on just a light bulb, a long cable and power. Having something reliant on an already complicated piece of transmitter based kit is just asking for problems.

… and reliant on the bus still being more than 1 km away when the button is pressed!

 

[AndrewE]

In Tenerife, the bus stops on the TF1 motorway have a button linked to a simple, illuminated 'BUS' sign 1km before the bus stop, simple, efficient, very basic - reliant on just a light bulb, a long cable and power. Having something reliant on an already complicated piece of transmitter based kit is just asking for problems.

A km of cable (with voltage drop etc) is quite vulnerable... better, just an LED sign controlled by a simple/robust low-power wireless link of some kind, powered by a small solar panel.

20 years ago Uttoxeter was fitted with an experimental departure board that worked off pager communication.
30 or more years ago we saw request stop buttons on Swiss narrow gauge stations, possibly on the Rhaetian or Bernina lines.

 

[najaB]

Having something reliant on an already complicated piece of transmitter based kit is just asking for problems.

If they are, in fact, linked to the RETB signalling then it's a reliable, robust system that already fails safe.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I can't think of a situation where someone could raise their hands to attract the attention of a driver but couldn't push a button.

There probably are, but at the extremes of day-to-day experience / what-if-ery. Some examples of those who may struggle to use a button, but would be visible to the driver of an approaching train would include amputees, Thalidomide 'victims', the visually impaired. The issue is not being able to press a button but being visible as a potential passenger. As things stand a train approaching a request stop does so at a speed enabling it to stop if required: button pressed, arm raised, flag or torch waved or whatever. I would expect a driver approaching a request station to be on the lookout for potential passengers and stop accordingly - even if no 'request' is made. If approach speeds are to be increased as a result of this feature that opportunity to safely stop is removed.

As has been mentioned, how far (time-wise) in advance does the 'request to stop' button need to be pressed? For an infrequent service in a remote area I would always try to be at the station in plenty of time, but sometimes circumstances do not make this possible eg connecting buses.

The usual approach is to fail safe - so if there's no positive communication with the machine the driver should get an instruction to stop. The one failure mode that would be difficult to mitigate is a faulty button.

You mean like where there is driving snow, a bit of a melt, then a freeze. I've had buttons on pelican crossings frozen solid so unable to call the crossing for pedestrians.

Now all we need is a system for onboard passengers to request the train to stop, in case the guard forgets, or is distracted etc.

 

[najaB]

Some examples of those who may struggle to use a button, but would be visible to the driver of an approaching train would include amputees, Thalidomide 'victims', the visually impaired.

I take your point, and I'll counter that I would expect that our multiple amputee would most likely have been accompanied to the station by someone - if only because the stations are relatively remote - so that person could press the button.

 

[InOban]

Remember that all scotrail stations also have an audio help point.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can't think of a situation where someone could raise their hands to attract the attention of a driver but couldn't push a button.

Me either but wondered if there were some non-physical disabilities that could come into play. Although the chance of encountering someone so disabled on the Far North Line at a request stop is remote.

I also hope there is clear signage about the need to use these machines. Although, either way, there will sadly be some people who won't realise and will see their train 'hurtling' through at linespeed. A rather hefty delay if so!

I think the chances of leaving someone are pretty slim, but no less slim than the current mechanism. What problem does this solve? Just trains not being able to do line speed?

 

[backontrack]

This is a very welcome development indeed, nice to see the Far North Line pioneering new measures.

If this does go down well then it'd be nice to see it rolled out across the rest of the ScotRail network.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

How many minutes before the scheduled time does one have to be there and press the button? Looks like a way to make travel a bit less attractive.

 

[backontrack]

How many minutes before the scheduled time does one have to be there and press the button? Looks like a way to make travel a bit less attractive.

Looks like a way to boost enthusiast numbers! At stations like Altnabreac they do make a discernible effect on usage figures...in fact they're the only market

 

[najaB]

How many minutes before the scheduled time does one have to be there and press the button? Looks like a way to make travel a bit less attractive.

How so? The Far North Line isn't a turn up and go metro service. There are typically four or fewer trains per day so most people are going to be turning up in good time.

 

[37424]

Hmm I can see children potentially having a field day with that even if they fairly remote, press the button and run off.

 

[Railsigns]

How many minutes before the scheduled time does one have to be there and press the button?

Pressing the button two minutes before the scheduled train time will usually be more than sufficient, which doesn't seem unreasonable.

The "stop" or "pass through" notification will be displayed in the driving cab (together with an audio notification) slightly before the point where the driver has to decide whether or not to start braking for a station stop. When the train is past that point, it can no longer be requested to stop by pressing the button.

The request stop feature is just one of the interventions being developed with the aim of reducing journey times and improving operations on the Far North Line along with line speed improvements, power-operation of some crossing loop points, and a new crossing loop at Scorguie.

 

[bengley]

Hmm I can see children potentially having a field day with that even if they fairly remote, press the button and run off.

Doesn't really matter. If the train stops it's no more inconvenient than stopping to pick up a genuine passenger.

Kids could quite easily stand at the station and hold their hand out for the train to stop too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are similar systems in use in Switzerland, but connected to the signalling, if I recall.

I assume the idea is that the train can run through e.g. Altnabreac at linespeed rather than having to slow right down (the sightline towards Wick is awful).

 

[backontrack]

Hmm I can see children potentially having a field day with that even if they fairly remote, press the button and run off.

If there were children at Scotscalder station I honestly doubt they'd be there for any other reason than to catch the train!