Scotrail RMT strike action and possible temporary service cuts to a third of services

[dk1]

Completely different when overtime is available to allow enhanced operation, catch up, seasonal surge, or cover staff off sick.

When Rest Day working is only way to operate basic service, then it is different

Rest day working would have to come before overtime to cover open turns as per local agreements.

 

[ainsworth74]

Sorry, there seems to be a lot of sound and fury, but what is the RMTs actual dispute? Scotrail are removing services because of a driver shortage and the RMT are unhappy because...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s hardly the RMT’s fault Scotrail doesn’t employ enough staff to run the basic service. But as usual railway staff are cast as greedy when they work overtime, lazy/militant when they don’t.

It is the RMT's fault they are speaking of ScotRail in this manner, and I'm afraid it's rank hypocrisy as they're happy to work them when they want.

You either want it or you don't. I bet they'd shout if all RDW was to cease permanently because sufficient staff were employed, with only the odd bit of same-day overtime when there were severe delays to a train a member was driving or guarding, without extra money being offered (and nor should it be).

As usual, ASLEF are saying the same sort of thing but in a far more measured manner. RMT are behaving disgracefully and hypocritically.

It is about time that Unions influencing a mass approach to volunteering or not volunteering was considered in law to be industrial action, as in any meaningful sense it is.

 

[43066]

It is the RMT's fault they are speaking of ScotRail in this manner, and I'm afraid it's rank hypocrisy as they're happy to work them when they want.

It’s not hypocritical in the slightest. The union in principle opposes RDW, albeit individual members are free to work it if they wish to (there is no obligation on them to work it, just as there is no obligation for it to be provided). No doubt you’d be complaining if the union tried to insist that members *never* worked overtime under any circumstances.

You either want it or you don't. I bet they'd shout if all RDW was to cease permanently because sufficient staff were employed, with only the odd bit of same-day overtime when there were severe delays to a train a member was driving or guarding, without extra money being offered (and nor should it be).

That’s exactly the position on the LU and nobody shouts about it as far as I’m aware.

RDW is one thing, but I find it interesting you also seem to consider that staff shouldn’t be paid for overtime worked during delays which are effectively forced overtime (if I’m reading that right).

It is about time that Unions influencing a mass approach to volunteering or not volunteering was considered in law to be industrial action, as in any meaningful sense it is.

I think you’ll find it already is:

Taking part in industrial action and strikes

How legal industrial action is organised, picketing and the law and what your employment rights when you are on strike

www.gov.uk

Overview

Industrial action is when workers:

go on strike
take other action, like refusing to do overtime (known as ‘action short of a strike’)
Sometimes an employer may stop their workers from working or coming back to work during a dispute. This is called a ‘lock-out’.

Calling industrial action
Industrial action happens when trade union members are in a dispute with their employers that can’t be solved through negotiations.

A trade union can only call for industrial action if a majority of its members involved support it in a properly organised postal vote - called a ‘ballot’.

 

[Wynd]

This is not the time for strikes and cuts.

This is a time to grow the railway, in services and route miles. It may be painful not to get a raise, but some of us have deferred wage increases in recent years in an afford to support the businesses we are in.

A little self sacrifice might go a long way. If only more could see this.

Scotrail now in public ownership has the potential to grow active travel and subsequently passenger numbers. Lets not kill it before it even gets going huh?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s not hypocritical in the slightest. The union in principle opposes RDW, albeit individual members are free to work it if they wish to (there is no obligation on them to work it, just as there is no obligation for it to be provided). No doubt you’d be complaining if the union tried to insist that members *never* worked overtime under any circumstances.

I'm certain that a Union got its back up about potential withdrawal of RDW by the employer without compensation, didn't it? Was that the RMT? If so, hypocrisy.

RDW is one thing, but I find it interesting you also seem to consider that staff shouldn’t be paid for overtime worked during delays which are effectively forced overtime (if I’m reading that right).

I didn't mean overtime shouldn't be paid (though it's not in some professional industries, and railway pay is certainly in the ballpark where it could be salaried rather than waged), I meant there shouldn't be compensation for the employer deciding to permanently cease the offering of "regular" RDW as opposed to emergency overtime. Which will mean a pay cut (with fewer hours worked) for those who regularly did it.

 

[43066]

I'm certain that a Union got its back up about potential withdrawal of RDW by the employer without compensation, didn't it? Was that the RMT? If so, hypocrisy.

I wasn’t aware of that happening, which I agree would be hypocritical. There have been disputes (eg TPE) around the % uplift in hourly pay for RDW paid to RMT members compared to other grades, which isn’t quite the same thing (no comment on whether that’s a sensible dispute at the moment ).

I didn't mean overtime shouldn't be paid (though it's not in some professional industries, and railway pay is certainly in the ballpark where it could be salaried rather than waged), I meant there shouldn't be compensation for the employer deciding to permanently cease the offering of "regular" RDW as opposed to emergency overtime. Which will mean a pay cut (with fewer hours worked) for those who regularly did it.

Fair enough, I misinterpreted.

I suppose one difference with project based professional roles is that they tend to involve a good deal more autonomy than railway work, and workflow can be more self determined. For instance you can log on to respond to emails or finish writing a document at the weekend or late in the evening and to a greater extent manage your life around that. That’s not possible when you’re hours late home because you’ve been stuck on a train in the middle of nowhere.

But as to your wider point, also agreed. Putting things like committed Sundays aside, traditional RDW is not guaranteed to be offered any more than it’s required to be worked.

As a general point working long hours for no extra pay and the resulting poor work-life balance is a big problem in the U.K. and not something that should be encouraged. Other European countries have a much healthier attitude towards such matters.

 

[reb0118]

Maybe things are different in Scotland, but using covid as an excuse is no longer acceptable, some businesses have gone back to simply ill or not ill as a determinant of if staff are off sick or fit to work

This is not really about staff going off with Covid but rather the fact that there are not enough trained staff due to the previous Covid restrictions. Trainees were unable to be trained but retirees were still retiring. So yes Covid is a valid reason.

That said an emergency timetable should have been implemented based on the actual staffing levels.

 

[Falcon1200]

Also why would you grudge anyone a wage rise? That attitude seems bizarre to me. I think everyone should be looking for one in the current climate and I'd support anyone, in any line of work, in their claim for one.

I don't think anyone begrudges rail staff a wage rise, which they have of course been offered; But the Unions deem the amount insufficient and are demanding more, which they absolutely have the right to do. However, what the Unions must now consider is the effect of their current and possible future actions on the viability of, and necessity for, their members' industry, which does not exist in a self-contained world where people have no choice but to use the service, no matter how poor.

The question has to be asked again (as it was during the Scotrail Guards Sunday dispute), where would the extra money to fund a larger wage increase come from, given that Scotrail already requires huge subsidy ? One suggestion was increased borrowing by the Scottish Government, which does not seem a particularly sustainable method of financing day-to-day operations. The answer can only be increased taxpayer subsidy, in direct competition with all the other publicly financed areas such as health and education.

 

[APT618S]

Trains, at the weekend in particular, are absolutely rammed.

Not helped by running short forms.
For example last Sun (15th May), the 1241 Edinburgh to Aberdeen was a 2-car 158 vice HST. Full and standing on leaving Waverley, people left behind at Haymarket.
The 1700 Queen St to Edinburgh was a 3-car 385 vice 8-car with the 1630 and 1730 services cancelled - completely wedged on leaving Queen St, people probably left behind. Announcements prior to boarding encouraging people to take the stopper from low level.

 

[Wynd]

Not helped by running short forms.
For example last Sun (15th May), the 1241 Edinburgh to Aberdeen was a 2-car 158 vice HST. Full and standing on leaving Waverley, people left behind at Haymarket.
The 1700 Queen St to Edinburgh was a 3-car 385 vice 8-car with the 1630 and 1730 services cancelled - completely wedged on leaving Queen St, people probably left behind. Announcements prior to boarding encouraging people to take the stopper from low level.

The shambolic performance of the HST under scotrail management is well documented. There has not been a lower rate of reliability with any other operator than SR, with barely 2/3 of the machines ever available, and some having never seen service under SR.

There are serious questions around this, and its harming SR income.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a general point working long hours for no extra pay and the resulting poor work-life balance is a big problem in the U.K. and not something that should be encouraged. Other European countries have a much healthier attitude towards such matters.

I find this depends on the industry and how good the management is. I work in IT and am salaried, and find that overtime is a genuine "last resort" thing, which is what it should be. I know some people do end up working silly long hours, but that isn't universal in salaried roles, the better companies don't take the mick.

Fair enough, I misinterpreted.

Sorry, I didn't make it clear enough when I re-read it.

You're right about "office based" (home based) roles having more autonomy. It isn't really a problem if I end up doing work at 10pm because I got distracted by something else during the day e.g. having to phone a company that only operated during office hours. Whereas staff can't unilaterally decide that the 1231 will depart at 0031 instead.

FWIW I have no issue with overtime being paid (i.e. railway jobs being waged rather than salaried).

 

[Moonshot]

Industrial relations are now an issue everywhere in addition to ScotRail. By the end of this year , we will be looking at 100s of thousands of train services cancelled all over the UK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Industrial relations are now an issue everywhere in addition to ScotRail. By the end of this year , we will be looking at 100s of thousands of train services cancelled all over the UK.

Mostly because the RMT (in particular) won't accept the financially perilous situation the railway is in and allow cloth to be cut accordingly. The good times will be back later, but they aren't here now.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

I don't believe it's a financially perilous situation. Unless the government are planning on reintroducing covid restrictions again at some stage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't believe it's a financially perilous situation. Unless the government are planning on reintroducing covid restrictions again at some stage.

The non-return of commuters and business travellers (despite leisure travel being up) has considerably reduced income.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Covid restrictions were still in place a few weeks ago. It wasn't that long ago people were told not to travel unless it was an emergency.

It's impossible to predict long term travel patterns based on a few weeks of evidence.

The fact numbers are already so high seems like a positive to me.

 

[Blindtraveler]

ScotRail has had a staffing issue since before the pandemic and I would be the first to agree that the the pandemic has impacted this as various rules prevented or at least seriously held up staff training. However if ScotRail want to get passengers back then they're going the wrong way about it. Their claims and indeed the claims of some on here that passenger numbers are through the floor are absolute codswallop. There certainly seems to have been plenty of passengers on any train that I have chosen to travel on recently and I'll tell you now, given the majority of my travel is long distance north to south and South to North, I've not been travelling on many trains. Plenty of aircraft who's passenger numbers recovered far quicker than the railway did and are now back to normal almost in terms of loadings and schedules although no doubt these industries are having staffing issues as well and indeed we saw this over Easter. But I strongly suspect that this goes a lot deeper than what we are now seeing and the impacts of the pandemic and various other wishy-washy excuses like passenger numbers and now being used for something much deeper. in short, and this is just the view of one passenger, but the rail industry is broken and SNP rail as it now is was at breaking point well before the word lockdown ever became a common term.


The timing is very unfortunate because we are now into the tourist season and there are certainly plenty of them about. A vast amount of money has been spent on encouraging visitors back to Scotland this year ear against a backdrop of no no I legally binding covid restrictions and what are the visitors going to get? A 2 car 30 year old train working what is classified as an intercity service


It is little wonder that the bus operators, car sales people and higher companies of every possible size of vehicle are taking their seats in the great hall and preparing to dine heartily on the enormous banquet that ScotRail and doubtless others will place before them

 

[Dryce]

I don't believe it's a financially perilous situation. Unless the government are planning on reintroducing covid restrictions again at some stage.

It's doesn't know financial peril because of the high level of public money supporting it.

Strategically it is at risk - because that cost to the public demands that questions about its true value and costs need to be asked and those responsible for allocating budgets need to asses where public money is best spent.

Covid and the changes in usage patterns over the last two years mean that the demand and need for some services is questionable.

So probably for the first time in a generation the railway does face a strategically 'financially perilous situation'.

If the railway doesn't demonstrate value then if the economy is being managed properly then questions have to be asked as to whether that public money has to go elsewhere.

 

[Deltic1961]

Problem is that headcount transcends everything else. They'd rather pay overtime to current employees than go through the costs of extra bodies.

It's cheaper to do this than source, interview, medical, train etc.

It's a fine balance though and the chickens are coming home to roost. Unions using the overtime ban as a lever could backfire in the long term, because if they do hire extra drivers and overtime is cut they won't be happy about that either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's doesn't know financial peril because of the high level of public money supporting it.

Strategically it is at risk - because that cost to the public demands that questions about its true value and costs need to be asked and those responsible for allocating budgets need to asses where public money is best spent.

Covid and the changes in usage patterns over the last two years mean that the demand and need for some services is questionable.

So probably for the first time in a generation the railway does face a strategically 'financially perilous situation'.

If the railway doesn't demonstrate value then if the economy is being managed properly then questions have to be asked as to whether that public money has to go elsewhere.

I really fear a Beeching II because of a refusal to modernise. With Beeching it was "fully staffed branch line with station staff, driver and guard and freight service" vs "nothing", when "basic passenger only branch line with unstaffed stations and tickets sold on board" may have allowed some more to survive.

 

[baz962]

Completely different when overtime is available to allow enhanced operation, catch up, seasonal surge, or cover staff off sick.

When Rest Day working is only way to operate basic service, then it is different

Well as a lot of them jobs were many years ago I can't comment on all of them. But the most recent in the case of security I had done for twenty years , both as a second job and then my only job from 2007 to 2010 , overtime all year round. Airport from 2011 to 2018 and although there was more overtime in the summer , it was year round. I averaged 60 hours a month and was doing 30 hours a month in the quiet months so not just seasonal.

 

[InOban]

Scotrail were well aware pre-covid of the fact that many drivers were approaching retiral and had recruited several cohorts of trainees whose training got frozen. These trainees have now begun their training on real trains along real routes. This requires experienced drivers etc, leaving many rosters uncovered except by overtime. However for reasons we all know, they're not volunteering for this overtime.

 

[dk1]

Scotrail were well aware pre-covid of the fact that many drivers were approaching retiral and had recruited several cohorts of trainees whose training got frozen. These trainees have now begun their training on real trains along real routes. This requires experienced drivers etc, leaving many rosters uncovered except by overtime. However for reasons we all know, they're not volunteering for this overtime.

Considering Scotrail was Abellio at the time, to freeze training seems odd considering their sister TOC Greater Anglia worked wonders throughout the pandemic with driver training. I suppose it has a lot to do with whether local ASLEF reps where as agreeable or if Scotlands Covid rules where different.

 

[sannox]

The timetable and cuts is one thing, however I'm not sure it particularly hits the right note- weekend services, particularly evening departures, are rammed at times but have been cut back.

Shortforms are a right pain - with cuts in services operating the stock previously assigned should be possible - the number of 2 car East Kilbride services and 3 car Ayr/Gourock seems out of kilter with this.

 

[43066]

However for reasons we all know, they're not volunteering for this overtime.

To be fair a significant number of train crew don’t ever work rest days. That has nothing to do with industrial action, and is simply because even the basic shift pattern is very gruelling on the body clock, highly anti social and people simply want to enjoy their lives away from work!

Unions using the overtime ban as a lever could backfire in the long term, because if they do hire extra drivers and overtime is cut they won't be happy about that either.

Both the RMT and ASLEF are in favour of exactly that - as per LU. Unions benefit because more members = more subs and more influence. It won’t ever happen, though, because it costs more overall.

 

[MalaiseForever]

The non-return of commuters and business travellers (despite leisure travel being up) has considerably reduced income.

Revenue nationwide is currently at 81%. Not quite as apocalyptic as some (not saying you personally) people like to make out.

 

[Robertj21a]

Nobody can really know whether any specific staff, in any industry, deserve a pay rise. It's partly due to supply and demand of staff and partly due to an objective assessment of the demands of the job (key tasks, skills required, hours, pressure, conditions, decision making, supervision etc etc).
For the railways it would probably help all concerned if a truly independent and objective analysis could be undertaken.

 

[Watershed]

Revenue nationwide is currently at 81%. Not quite as apocalyptic as some (not saying you personally) people like to make out.

That's an average, boosted by the likes of LNER who have recovered very well. I'm sure the figure is rather less buoyant over at ScotRail; certainly passenger numbers were well below the rest of the UK based on the last figures I saw.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Revenue nationwide is currently at 81%. Not quite as apocalyptic as some (not saying you personally) people like to make out.

Not apocalyptic but 20% is a big number.