ScotRail to hire 42 Revenue Protection Inspectors

[Sirius]

The other week I travelled to and from work 4 times and had tickets checked twice. Legitimately paid £28 for tickets but could probably have easily got away with paying about a fiver (can't remember exactly where I was checked). Those odds put it about on par with a season ticket, or slightly better as you don't work every week of the year.

At stations with barriers? The majority of commuters will encounter barriers at the main stations. Commuters between unbarriered stations are the outlier.

Even major stations without barriers - High Street mentioned upthread - get targeted action. Although as noted above massively inconvenience legitimate travellers in the process to achieve ever diminishing returns in revenue.

 

[Kite159]

At stations with barriers? The majority of commuters will encounter barriers at the main stations. Commuters between unbarriered stations are the outlier.

Even major stations without barriers - High Street mentioned upthread - get targeted action. Although as noted above massively inconvenience legitimate travellers in the process to achieve ever diminishing returns in revenue.

Revenue block at High Street station:
"Where did you travel from?"
"Bellgrove"

*member of staff sells ticket from Bellgrove knowing full well that passenger probably came from further afield but lacks resources*

 

[Sirius]

Perhaps so, however said member of the public doesn’t have a ticket to get home. So has to run the gauntlet again for their journey home.

At an industrial scale the savings will be minimal for all but very infrequent travellers.

If neither First nor Abellio came up with a penalty fare scheme the Scottish Government aren’t going to criminalise rail passengers while simultaneously discouraging car use.

 

[jagardner1984]

Surely at £1m a year (I suspect the cost would be a lot more when taking into account all the costs) - you’d be better to progressively add gate line infrastructure at the main problem areas ? High Street in year 1 etc. Do the gate lines beep or flash differently when a child ticket goes through ?

 

[TurbineEnginee]

This all seems so confusing.

If you need to pass a barrier that scans your ticket when you enter, and pass a barrier that scans your ticket when you exit, why do we need these staff?

Conversely, how is an RPO without any authority of arrest supposed to ever do anything about people who are determined not to pay?

Perhaps the problem here is that the lost revenue just isn’t worth investing in barriers.

If that’s the case, why bother at all?

Window dressing?

 

[alxndr]

At stations with barriers? The majority of commuters will encounter barriers at the main stations. Commuters between unbarriered stations are the outlier.

Even major stations without barriers - High Street mentioned upthread - get targeted action. Although as noted above massively inconvenience legitimate travellers in the process to achieve ever diminishing returns in revenue.

Start and exit are unbarriered. In theory I should travel through Central and Queen Street but I change between Bridgeton and Bellgrove to avoid the bulk of the commuters, which happen to be unbarriered. Wouldn't surprise me if others did similar for more troublesome reasons.

 

[Parallel]

I’ve been on a train from Carlisle to Glasgow before when the guard came around checking tickets (can’t remember where exactly but it was before Kilmarnock) and the table of 4 a couple of seats on from me said ‘Sorry but we’re not buying any tickets today’ and the guard huffed and moved on. I was shocked. Hopefully these new RPIs can stamp out some of this behaviour.

 

[tspaul26]

Conversely, how is an RPO without any authority of arrest supposed to ever do anything about people who are determined not to pay?

They would have a power of arrest (on paper at least).

 

[Falcon1200]

Revenue block at High Street station:
"Where did you travel from?"
"Bellgrove"

The solution to that is revenue blocks at adjacent stations, so that nobody would be able to enter, in this example Bellgrove, without a ticket.

If you need to pass a barrier that scans your ticket when you enter, and pass a barrier that scans your ticket when you exit, why do we need these staff?

Because there are many, many stations without barriers (and installing them would cost money and require staff to monitor them). On my local line the only barriered station is Glasgow Central, but there is much intermediate station travel to places such as Mount Florida and Queens Park.

 

[ainsworth74]

If you need to pass a barrier that scans your ticket when you enter, and pass a barrier that scans your ticket when you exit, why do we need these staff?

Because there are many, many stations without barriers (and installing them would cost money and require staff to monitor them). On my local line the only barriered station is Glasgow Central, but there is much intermediate station travel to places such as Mount Florida and Queens Park.

Plus even where the stations are barriered big savings can be made by only having a ticket to work the barrier at each end. I wish to fare evade on a journey from Aberdeen to Edinburgh. The single ticket is £41.40. However I can reduce that to £7.40 by buying a single from Aberdeen to Portlethen and Haymarket to Edinburgh. Now the chances are on a journey of that length the Scotrail conductor would probably do a revenue check and would catch me out at some point however the point is that barriers aren't the be all and end all of revenue protection.

Conversely, how is an RPO without any authority of arrest supposed to ever do anything about people who are determined not to pay?

I'm not entirely convinced that they have the power of arrest in England and Wales (I don't think PACE require an arrest?) but even if they do we seem to manage quite well without constantly arresting people (see the Disputes & Prosecutions section)! Railway staff do have the power to remove people from the railway who are in breach of the Railway Byelaws using "reasonable force" but I've rarely if ever heard of it being used.

But the reality is that there is a hardcore subset who do refuse to pay and they exist both in England, Wales and Scotland as well. Yet that doesn't mean we throw the towel in and don't bother without any revenue enforcement at all. Typically what I've seen happen down here is that the train stops at the next station and the person is invited to leave the train or wait for the police to attend. From the cases I've seen personally most then pay-up and handful leave the train (none have yet opted to wait for the police, though a few said they would).

Window dressing?

Unless you consider revenue protection to be window dressing throughout England and Wales I don't see how it will be in Scotland.

The solution to that is revenue blocks at adjacent stations, so that nobody would be able to enter, in this example Bellgrove, without a ticket.

Something which is commonly done (at least before the wider roll out of TVMs and Penalty Fare schemes) elsewhere. It was not uncommon for there to be a total block at Outwood (first station outside of Leeds) meaning anyone presenting at the barrier asking to buy a ticket from Outwood would be met by "May I ask how you boarded a train at Outwood when my colleagues were there ensuring everyone had a ticket before boarding this morning?" and I'm sure the reader can imagine how that would end...

None of what ScotRail is proposing here is anything other than things which have been done down in England and Wales for donkey's years! The incredulity shouldn't be aimed at ScotRail recruiting RPIs now but more that they've not done so before!! Just because they cannot easily prosecute fare evasion doesn't mean they can't still make a difference...

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

If neither First nor Abellio came up with a penalty fare scheme the Scottish Government aren’t going to criminalise rail passengers while simultaneously discouraging car use.

In the interests of clarity, Penalty Fares schemes are essentially a premium fare system designed to deter fare dodging. They are not a matter of criminal law per se. Only once one refuses to pay a penalty fare and/or provide a valid address does it become a matter of criminal law. I seem to recall from the Chris Green period that Stratchclyde did have a Penalty Fares Regime. Was that taken away somewhere along the line?

 

[ld0595]

Sorry if this has been explained before but why can Edinburgh Trams have a penalty fare system but Scotrail can't? I would think a penalty fare of £20 would probably act as a decent deterrent around most of the Strathclyde routes.

 

[Huntergreed]

Sorry if this has been explained before but why can Edinburgh Trams have a penalty fare system but Scotrail can't? I would think a penalty fare of £20 would probably act as a decent deterrent around most of the Strathclyde routes.

I don’t believe that ScotRail can’t have a penalty fare policy (it would be within their rights to introduce one), they just choose not to.

 

[kkong]

Sorry if this has been explained before but why can Edinburgh Trams have a penalty fare system but Scotrail can't? I would think a penalty fare of £20 would probably act as a decent deterrent around most of the Strathclyde routes.

Edinburgh Trams don't operate a penalty fares scheme.

if you can't present a valid ticket on demand, they charge the "on-board fare" of £10.

The same concept applies on First Bus services in Scotland - the "standard fare" which was £30 last time I checked (although I've never seen or heard of this happening on a bus).

I think there are likely good (Scottish) legal reasons why ScotRail haven't introduced (or rather, been instructed by Transport Scotland to introduce) a penalty fares scheme.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think there are likely good (Scottish) legal reasons why ScotRail haven't introduced (or rather, been instructed by Transport Scotland to introduce) a penalty fares scheme.

Though the Penalty Fare Regulations 2018 apply to Scotland alongside England and Wales so I'm not convinced there is a legal impediment to Scotrail operating a scheme.

 

[kkong]

Though the Penalty Fare Regulations 2018 apply to Scotland alongside England and Wales so I'm not convinced there is a legal impediment to Scotrail operating a scheme.

Have you looked at section 2 (2) of those Regulations ?

 

[XAM2175]

Yes, per the Explanatory Memorandum to the regulations:

5. Extent and Territorial Application
5.1: The extent of this instrument is England and Wales and Scotland.
5.2: The territorial application of this instrument is England, Wales and Scotland.
5.3: However, this instrument does not apply to Transport for London railway passenger services, certain Scottish railway passenger services and stations served only by those services.

For the purposes of Regulation 2(2);

"Scotland-only service" means a railway passenger service which starts and ends in Scotland and is not a cross-border service;
"Scottish franchise agreement" means a franchise agreement the franchised services under which—
(a) consist of or include Scotland-only services; and
(b) so far as they include other services, include only cross-border services designated by the Scottish Ministers;”.

The effect - and I assume also the intent - of which is to allow English TOCs to charge penalty fares in Scotland.

However, given that section 47 of the Railways Act 2005 explicitly gives the Scottish Ministers power to make penalty fares regulations for Scotland, I assume that that is the process by which ScotRail would obtain the power to issue penalty fares (and by extension that no impediment to that process in Scots law appeared to the drafters of the 2005 Act).

 

[kkong]

However, given that section 47 of the Railways Act 2005 explicitly gives the Scottish Ministers power to make penalty fares regulations for Scotland, I assume that that is the process by which ScotRail would obtain the power to issue penalty fares (and by extension that no impediment to that process in Scots law appeared to the drafters of the 2005 Act).

I'm not sure that logical leap can be made. The Act makes clear that the Scottish Ministers have the powers to make penalty fares regulations as they see fit, if they wish to do so. I don't believe the drafters of the Act will have considered whether any such regulations would be lawful in Scotland. How could they, such regulations did not exist then and still do not exist now. That would be a matter for the Scottish Ministers to consider.

Furthermore, you will note that the The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022 - which increased the penalty from £20 to £100 and such like - very clearly doesn't extend to Scotland (or Wales).

I'm also not aware of any English TOCs charging penalty fares in Scotland, however I stand to be corrected.

If they indeed don't charge penalty fares in Scotland, then you have to ask why not?

 

[XAM2175]

I'm not sure that logical leap can be made. The Act makes clear that the Scottish Ministers have the powers to make penalty fares regulations as they see fit, if they wish to do so. I don't believe the drafters of the Act will have considered whether any such regulations would be lawful in Scotland. How could they, such regulations did not exist then and still do not exist now. That would be a matter for the Scottish Ministers to consider.

That would be why I specifically said that "I assume ... that no impediment to that process in Scots law appeared to the drafters of the 2005 Act", rather than anything suggesting actual consideration.

Furthermore, you will note that the The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022 - which increased the penalty from £20 to £100 and such like - very clearly doesn't extend to Scotland (or Wales).

I'm not sure that I follow your point here. As the Explanatory Note to the amended regulations sets out:

These Regulations apply in England, and in Wales except to the extent that the power to make penalty fares has been devolved to the Welsh Ministers. In Regulation 3(a) the term “In respect of England” is used to set out where the new Regulations apply; in summary they apply in England and in respect of trains that start in England and go into Wales. The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 will continue to apply unamended in other cases, where the Secretary of State does not have power to make amendments.

I'm also not aware of any English TOCs charging penalty fares in Scotland, however I stand to be corrected.

If they indeed don't charge penalty fares in Scotland, then you have to ask why not?

TransPennine is the only English TOC operating into Scotland that has a penalty fares scheme. They state on their website that "Penalty Fares are in operation across all TransPennine Express routes except for journeys into and within Scotland as they have a different legal system" - but I'm not prepared, without doing more research, to rule out that being a misapprehension. Alternately, it may be that they simply don't consider it to be worth their while - potential legal differences aside, at the very least they'd have to go around putting up the prescribed penalty fares notices all over the stations they serve in Scotland.

For balance though, neither can I rule out my interpretation being incorrect. But TPE are subject to FOI now, so if you're feeling particularly curious you could always give that a go!

 

[Sirius]

One need not look far to find an example of why it's an atrocious idea.

14 Year Old School Pupil accused of lying about her age

An interesting report published today on the Daily Mail web site today Girl, 14, was left in tears after being handed a £100 fine by train inspectors who accused her of lying about her age to travel on child's ticket - despite her wearing her school uniform Leila Sanger was stopped by guards...

www.railforums.co.uk

Without seeking to duplicate discussion add the headline "Welcome to Humza Yousaf's Scotland" to any of the tabloid interest and weigh up the political interest in the Scottish Government taking an absolutist approach to revenue generation within an ultimately loss making public service.

 

[tomuk]

One need not look far to find an example of why it's an atrocious idea.

14 Year Old School Pupil accused of lying about her age

An interesting report published today on the Daily Mail web site today Girl, 14, was left in tears after being handed a £100 fine by train inspectors who accused her of lying about her age to travel on child's ticket - despite her wearing her school uniform Leila Sanger was stopped by guards...

www.railforums.co.uk

Without seeking to duplicate discussion add the headline "Welcome to Humza Yousaf's Scotland" to any of the tabloid interest and weigh up the political interest in the Scottish Government taking an absolutist approach to revenue generation within an ultimately loss making public service.

One rogue RPI does not a summer make. What would be wrong with the Scot Gov setting up a proper penalty fair regime as is their right under current legislation.

 

[Mak1981]

I believe on board ticket examiners and guards are paid commision on ticket sales, probably a nice sizeable number on a spreadsheet somewhere that scotrail might be trying to reduce by having these new staff as a deterrent to pay when challeneged and encourage more people to buy online etc prior to travel

 

[tomuk]

I believe on board ticket examiners and guards are paid commision on ticket sales, probably a nice sizeable number on a spreadsheet somewhere that scotrail might be trying to reduce by having these new staff as a deterrent to pay when challeneged and encourage more people to buy online etc prior to travel

To clarify you are saying revenue protection shouldn't be pursued because it would reduce TE and Guard commission levels. That is an interesting take.

 

[Mak1981]

To clarify you are saying revenue protection shouldn't be pursued because it would reduce TE and Guard commission levels. That is an interesting take.

I never said revenue protection shouldn't be pursued, I am saying implementing the extra staff may reduce the amount paid in commission and could even more than pay for the new staff

 

[Sirius]

One rogue RPI does not a summer make. What would be wrong with the Scot Gov setting up a proper penalty fair regime as is their right under current legislation.

One rogue RPI perhaps not however in Scotland that's a political calculation. The every pound regardless of cost mantra taken by some on this forum would very quickly find itself as a vote loser on the other side of the equation with the ever increasing amount of innocent victims pursued for innocently doing what they've done their whole lives.- stepped on a train and bought a ticket.

Once you factor in the amount of people who get free bus travel - at a cost to the Scottish Government - who are paying for free bus travel for a significant proportion of the problem anyway.

 

[Falcon1200]

The every pound regardless of cost mantra taken by some on this forum would very quickly find itself as a vote loser on the other side of the equation with the ever increasing amount of innocent victims pursued for innocently doing what they've done their whole lives.- stepped on a train and bought a ticket.

That is assuming that the recruitment of these staff is accompanied by Scotrail ceasing to sell tickets on board trains - Is that the case? And I suspect the vast majority of honest passengers would have no problem whatsoever with ensuring that everyone pays their way.

 

[d9009alycidon]

What's one of those? The National Entitlement Card?

I have a Saltire Card, is this the same thing? I was not aware of any concessions on the railway, thought it was only free bus travel.

 

[Sirius]

That is assuming that the recruitment of these staff is accompanied by Scotrail ceasing to sell tickets on board trains - Is that the case? And I suspect the vast majority of honest passengers would have no problem whatsoever with ensuring that everyone pays their way.

There’s almost zero chance of that given the number of unstaffed stations and dodgy ticket machines.

 

[ainsworth74]

I never said revenue protection shouldn't be pursued, I am saying implementing the extra staff may reduce the amount paid in commission and could even more than pay for the new staff

Though if Scotrail join the rest of the industry and embrace e-tickets the solution there is a to pay a small amount (2p I think is the going rate) per scan for guards and TEs. Which works very well on Northern at going someway to make up for lost commission whilst keeping the incentive to check tickets. Win win!

 

[XAM2175]

I have a Saltire Card, is this the same thing? I was not aware of any concessions on the railway, thought it was only free bus travel.

There are additional schemes offering discounts on rail travel to certain NEC holders in the Strathclyde, Fife, and Highland Council areas:

National Entitlement Card

Offering people with a disability, and those aged 60 and over, access to concession fares in some areas of Scotland.

www.scotrail.co.uk