Scotrail Trainee Drivers (Ongoing)

[380]

Trainees have to learn all aspects of driving a train, including closing the doors on the right.

You would end up with people never having to deal with right side departures until they’re out driving by themselves.

I doubt anybody at ops would sign off on that.

Could the cab door not be opened and the DI could get out to allow PTI duties ? Trainee could use commentary for RHS platforms

 

[320320]

Could the cab door not be opened and the DI could get out to allow PTI duties ? Trainee could use commentary for RHS platforms

IMO, i doubt we’ll see much happening that deviates from the current training standards. I don’t share the optimism displayed here by many posters that training will be resuming anytime soon and definitely not at the levels pre covid.

This has been going on for 6 months and there’s still no suitable plan to have more than 1 in a driving cab and it’s not going to change now considering infection rates are on the rise and were likely to have sporadic, regional lockdowns until the numbers are low enough.

This thread is like an echo chamber with the majority thinking everything will go back to normal soon but it’s completely different in the bothies and depots where theres no confidence of trainees returning in the near future.

 

[John Bishop]

IMO, i doubt we’ll see much happening that deviates from the current training standards. I don’t share the optimism displayed here by many posters that training will be resuming anytime soon and definitely not at the levels pre covid.

This has been going on for 6 months and there’s still no suitable plan to have more than 1 in a driving cab and it’s not going to change now considering infection rates are on the rise and were likely to have sporadic, regional lockdowns until the numbers are low enough.

This thread is like an echo chamber with the majority thinking everything will go back to normal soon but it’s completely different in the bothies and depots where theres no confidence of trainees returning in the near future.

That must be the case then if it’s being discussed in the bothies!

Are you speaking for every depot in Scotland or just your one? As stated above, there’s is numerous depots where DIs are happy to return to training, by their own choice. Also it seems there are a few depots where that’s not the case, North Clyde for example. Doesn’t mean that it’s not going to happen for everyone though.

If folk are happy to crack on, then let them get on with it, those that aren’t, then thats fine as well.

 

[320320]

That must be the case then if it’s being discussed in the bothies!

Are you speaking for every depot in Scotland or just your one? As stated above, there’s is numerous depots where DIs are happy to return to training, by their own choice. Also it seems there are a few depots where that’s not the case, North Clyde for example. Doesn’t mean that it’s not going to happen for everyone though.

If folk are happy to crack on, then let them get on with it, those that aren’t, then thats fine as well.

The stuff being discussed in bothies is quite clearly far more accurate than anything that’s being discussed on here!

As I’ve said on numerous occasions, this is what‘s going on in the North Clyde, the area that i work.

Nobody is attempting to stop anyone that wants to crack on but you seem unable to grasp the idea that a large number of drivers don’t want any involvement in the training process and won’t be sharing a cab regardless of any mitigations that might be put in place.

Are you a trainee or a qualified driver? If, as you say, there are plenty of depots where all the DIs are happy to return to training, where are they? Why aren’t they all out with trainees now? There’s been six months to sort this so why hasn’t it been done if the risk is so minimal?

IMO, a small amount of training might resume but i think network wide training is a long way off.

 

[John Bishop]

The stuff being discussed in bothies is quite clearly far more accurate than anything that’s being discussed on here!

As I’ve said on numerous occasions, this is what‘s going on in the North Clyde, the area that i work.

Nobody is attempting to stop anyone that wants to crack on but you seem unable to grasp the idea that a large number of drivers don’t want any involvement in the training process and won’t be sharing a cab regardless of any mitigations that might be put in place.

Are you a trainee or a qualified driver? If, as you say, there are plenty of depots where all the DIs are happy to return to training, where are they? Why aren’t they all out with trainees now? There’s been six months to sort this so why hasn’t it been done if the risk is so minimal?

IMO, a small amount of training might resume but i think network wide training is a long way off.

ASLEF have not given the green light for training to restart in Scotrail, that’s why nobody is out! Who knows what’s going on, but there’s clearly issues at the management side of things which is delaying the restart. Back in July, Kevin Lindsay stated the August 10th was the estimated date for training to restart, that’s clearly came and went with no other date been published for a restart, just rumours of dates.

Im qualified now but have several trainees and DIs as good friends. I know of numerous DIs and trainees from a few depots who are more than happy to return to training. A few other posters on this thread know of similar groups who are happy from various depots to return, but the fact is, ASLEF and/or Scotrail management are stalling it for unknown reasons.

 

[320320]

ASLEF have not given the green light for training to restart in Scotrail, that’s why nobody is out! Who knows what’s going on, but there’s clearly issues at the management side of things which is delaying the restart. Back in July, Kevin Lindsay stated the August 10th was the estimated date for training to restart, that’s clearly came and went with no other date been published for a restart, just rumours of dates.

Im qualified now but have several trainees and DIs as good friends. I know of numerous DIs and trainees from a few depots who are more than happy to return to training. A few other posters on this thread know of similar groups who are happy from various depots to return, but the fact is, ASLEF and/or Scotrail management are stalling it for unknown reasons.

You only think that Aslef and scotrail are “stalling it for unknown reasons” because you’re only hearing what you want to hear and only looking at it from the perspective of trainees desperate to get back to work.

The reason it’s not happening is because the risk of infection is too high when people are confined to an enclosed space where social distancing cannot be implemented and it won’t be happening soon.

You only have to look at why there’s no revenue collection on trains but its fine for for people to sell tickets at barriers in stations. If RMT members aren’t being asked to disregard social distancing on board trains it won’t be happening to Aslef members.

 

[Chingy]

The reason it’s not happening is because the risk of infection is too high when people are confined to an enclosed space where social distancing cannot be implemented and it won’t be happening soon.

Genuine question, Do Aslef operate regionally rather than nationally then, as I always thought Alsef was the national train drivers union?

I say this because my TOC and a family members FOC both restarted in cab train handling early August time, with the green light from Aslef. Would this "green light" not be the same nationally then? If not, why not?

 

[John Bishop]

You only think that Aslef and scotrail are “stalling it for unknown reasons” because you’re only hearing what you want to hear and only looking at it from the perspective of trainees desperate to get back to work.

The reason it’s not happening is because the risk of infection is too high when people are confined to an enclosed space where social distancing cannot be implemented and it won’t be happening soon.

You only have to look at why there’s no revenue collection on trains but its fine for for people to sell tickets at barriers in stations. If RMT members aren’t being asked to disregard social distancing on board trains it won’t be happening to Aslef members.

What?

ASLEF have not issued any official statement to say that training won’t be taking place have they! ASLEF have recently stated that it’s their number one priority to get training restarted, doesn’t really fit with what you seem to think is happening. As I’ve previously said, ASLEF have issued national guidance to allow training to restart in an industry accepted means, that includes RSSB and ORR amongst others. TOCs and FOCs across the country have restarted training, complying with the ASLEF guidance.

If all these bodies deem it safe to restart, why do Scotrail think they’re a special case and deem it unsafe as you seem to be suggesting? Looking at the number of Covid cases across the country, Scotland is amongst the safest Place to be in the country, doesn’t really fit with this unique stance you suggest the company and union is taking with regard to restarting.

As Chingy suggests above, it’s a National Union operating to the same policy throughout the UK, why would Scotrail be a special case? Genuine question!

 

[theironroad]

You only think that Aslef and scotrail are “stalling it for unknown reasons” because you’re only hearing what you want to hear and only looking at it from the perspective of trainees desperate to get back to work.

The reason it’s not happening is because the risk of infection is too high when people are confined to an enclosed space where social distancing cannot be implemented and it won’t be happening soon.

You only have to look at why there’s no revenue collection on trains but its fine for for people to sell tickets at barriers in stations. If RMT members aren’t being asked to disregard social distancing on board trains it won’t be happening to Aslef members.

Aslef have agreed and are supporting two in the cab, subject to testing etc on tocs and focs in England. It is happening and now.

Why Aslef's district reps in Scotland have chosen not to or not been approached by ScotRail or TS is the question, because aslef in England are supporting restarting training, though what the future holds for that with large increases in cases of covid is anyone's guess.

Revenue checks and sales are starting again on trains as well, obviously nothing to do with aslef.

 

[Tyrion]

Trainees for an Intercity Operator’s Scottish Depot have started handling with an instructor in bubble scenario!
If it is Aslef holding it back then it is Scotrail Company Council not Aslef in Scotland as a generalisation. Aslef have said they would follow industry guidelines from very beginning and therefore I highly doubt they are solely behind any delay.

 

[320320]

What?

ASLEF have not issued any official statement to say that training won’t be taking place have they! ASLEF have recently stated that it’s their number one priority to get training restarted, doesn’t really fit with what you seem to think is happening. As I’ve previously said, ASLEF have issued national guidance to allow training to restart in an industry accepted means, that includes RSSB and ORR amongst others. TOCs and FOCs across the country have restarted training, complying with the ASLEF guidance.

If all these bodies deem it safe to restart, why do Scotrail think they’re a special case and deem it unsafe as you seem to be suggesting? Looking at the number of Covid cases across the country, Scotland is amongst the safest Place to be in the country, doesn’t really fit with this unique stance you suggest the company and union is taking with regard to restarting.

As Chingy suggests above, it’s a National Union operating to the same policy throughout the UK, why would Scotrail be a special case? Genuine question!

You explain it then!

Aslef want training to restart, scotrail want it too, you say all the trainees and DIs you know want it to restart, yet here we are with no resumption in sight. So, go on and explain what the hold up is then, after all, you think the risk is minimal and we all need to get on with it so if there’s no problem what’s going on?

Aslef have agreed and are supporting two in the cab, subject to testing etc on tocs and focs in England. It is happening and now.

Why Aslef's district reps in Scotland have chosen not to or not been approached by ScotRail or TS is the question, because aslef in England are supporting restarting training, though what the future holds for that with large increases in cases of covid is anyone's guess.

Revenue checks and sales are starting again on trains as well, obviously nothing to do with aslef.

Ive no idea what’s happening in England but I can tell you that there’s no revenue or ticket checks happening on scotrail services in the north Clyde area. Ticket examiners have been told if social distancing is not possible on trains they can get off at the next station.
I don’t think it’s likely to change with the rapidly increasing rate of infection either.

 

[John Bishop]

You explain it then!

Aslef want training to restart, scotrail want it too, you say all the trainees and DIs you know want it to restart, yet here we are with no resumption in sight. So, go on and explain what the hold up is then, after all, you think the risk is minimal and we all need to get on with it so if there’s no problem what’s going on?



Ive no idea what’s happening in England but I can tell you that there’s no revenue or ticket checks happening on scotrail services in the north Clyde area. Ticket examiners have been told if social distancing is not possible on trains they can get off at the next station.
I don’t think it’s likely to change with the rapidly increasing rate of infection either.

Good grief, this is getting painful!

I have no idea what the delay is, which is the reasons for my posts! It’s not up to me and what I think the risks are, it’s up to the company and ASLEF to decide whats acceptable and what’s not. ASLEF along with the RSSB/ ORR et al have all decided that the risk is acceptable to restart training again (nationally) and they are far better to make that judgement than you or me. Are you a DI by any chance?

What has ticket examiners got to do with this? You keep bringing it up. Separate Union and separate priority for reducing social distancing in order to fulfil company requirements. I’d expect there’s more priority to get a driver qualified and operate a service than to send a ticket examiner through the train to check tickets!

 

[320320]

Good grief, this is getting painful!

I have no idea what the delay is, which is the reasons for my posts! It’s not up to me and what I think the risks are, it’s up to the company and ASLEF to decide whats acceptable and what’s not. ASLEF along with the RSSB/ ORR et al have all decided that the risk is acceptable to restart training again (nationally) and they are far better to make that judgement than you or me. Are you a DI by any chance?

What has ticket examiners got to do with this? You keep bringing it up. Separate Union and separate priority for reducing social distancing in order to fulfil company requirements. I’d expect there’s more priority to get a driver qualified and operate a service than to send a ticket examiner through the train to check tickets!

It’s definitely painful, but you don’t realise it’s your waffling that’s causing the pain.

You, admittedly, have no idea whats causing the hold up but you know what’s definitely not causing it

The points made about ticket examiners is that revenue has been decimated and at this point it’s far more important to rectify that than getting trainees back to work, so if it’s not deemed as safe for them then it can’t be deemed as safe for drivers. I don’t know what else to say to you if you’re unable or unwilling see any point of view other than one that is agreeable to you.

Passenger numbers are through the floor along with revenue, there’s no need for the amount of services and could easily be cut without anybody noticing. Maybe that’s the reason that there appears to be no rush to get trainees back, scotrail aren’t going to need them any time soon.

 

[hiall]

From what I can see and I may be totally wrong, the dis are in either of these 3 camps. The first camp are the majority of dis who will refuse to do it purely on safety. Secondly we have the dis who do have apprehensions but wouldn't mind going back but feel what's the point as they don't need to and they are all still being subbed for it. Lastly we have one or two who would go back tommorow but won't as they will not being going against the decision of the majority of their peers in the DI role.

As I said I may be wrong about the above but that's my analysis of the situation the past few days.

Wouldn't be surprised if we see a reduction in service as well to reduce demand for drivers day to day. Far too many trains running empty. Lanarks, Gourocks for example could all go to 2 an hour easily. Same could be said I'm told about the North Clyde work. Ballochs, Springburns etc.

 

[John Bishop]

It’s definitely painful, but you don’t realise it’s your waffling that’s causing the pain.

You, admittedly, have no idea whats causing the hold up but you know what’s definitely not causing it

The points made about ticket examiners is that revenue has been decimated and at this point it’s far more important to rectify that than getting trainees back to work, so if it’s not deemed as safe for them then it can’t be deemed as safe for drivers. I don’t know what else to say to you if you’re unable or unwilling see any point of view other than one that is agreeable to you.

Passenger numbers are through the floor along with revenue, there’s no need for the amount of services and could easily be cut without anybody noticing. Maybe that’s the reason that there appears to be no rush to get trainees back, scotrail aren’t going to need them any time soon.

Im the one waffling? Yeah okay pal, whatever.

Your the one trying to claim it’s unsafe, and I’m trying to point out to you that it’s been deemed safe by ASLEF et al across the UK, you don’t seem to be able to acknowledge that fact. Are you saying that all the other companies are unsafe by allowing training to take place? You clearly have an agenda and are anti training which is your prerogative and if your a DI and don’t want to train then you don’t have to, nobody is being forced to if they are not comfortable.

Maybe there’s no need for more drivers, but as the company have restarted the driver recruitment process again, I’m guessing that they foresee a need for more drivers shortly.

 

[hiall]

While I'm here I must say there have been 1 too many selfish, look how nice I am posters who for some reason want to be seen as some sort of superhero coming to the rescue like the above 2 that 320320 has mentioned in a previous post. They have led people up the garden path and were supported with the applause of their fellow cheerleading, deluded, happy clapper posters. They have no grasp of the reality of the situation. They are doing the trainees no favours whatsoever. They have gave them false hope of an imminent and sustained return. They should hang their head in shame. No amount of fairy dust that they sprinkle in their in la la land depot can change the situation faced in the real railway world.

 

[320320]

Im the one waffling? Yeah okay pal, whatever.

Your the one trying to claim it’s unsafe, and I’m trying to point out to you that it’s been deemed safe by ASLEF et al across the UK, you don’t seem to be able to acknowledge that fact. Are you saying that all the other companies are unsafe by allowing training to take place? You clearly have an agenda and are anti training which is your prerogative and if your a DI and don’t want to train then you don’t have to, nobody is being forced to if they are not comfortable.

Maybe there’s no need for more drivers, but as the company have restarted the driver recruitment process again, I’m guessing that they foresee a need for more drivers shortly.

waffling indeed.

You‘ve added absolutely nothing to this thread other than to say you don’t know why training hasn’t been resumed if it’s happening elsewhere or snidely dismissing any opinion that it’s because safety cant be guaranteed.

As for the anti training comment that’s just another example of your waffling and a poor attempt at trying to twist any opinion you don’t agree with as being negative.

Forgive me if I completely disregard the musings of someone that hasn’t been driving long enough to even take trainees in their cab Especially when it comes to the general feeling among other train drivers. You know absolutely nothing if you think drivers are happy to start wearing masks in the cab for hours per day just to resume driver training

 

[the sniper]

waffling indeed.

You‘ve added absolutely nothing to this thread other than to say you don’t know why training hasn’t been resumed if it’s happening elsewhere or snidely dismissing any opinion that it’s because safety cant be guaranteed.

As for the anti training comment that’s just another example of your waffling and a poor attempt at trying to twist any opinion you don’t agree with as being negative.

Forgive me if I completely disregard the musings of someone that hasn’t been driving long enough to even take trainees in their cab Especially when it comes to the general feeling among other train drivers. You know absolutely nothing if you think drivers are happy to start wearing masks in the cab for hours per day just to resume driver training

Masks in cabs? What are you on about? Or is that what's being thrown about in the messroom bubbles, where people often have a poor knowledge of what's going on outside of their own TOC? You're the one who seems to be ignoring what has been agreed by ASLEF elsewhere, like it's completely irrelevant. You've given your take on what's being said in some of the messrooms, fair enough. But you're hardly providing a definitive survey, while sticking it to this new driver in another depot, who's presumably pretty familiar with at least one DI, who'll be familiar with numerous other DIs... Basically, get off your high horse. You're both in the same boat.

That's not to say Scotrail should have or will be restarting any time soon. Numerous TOCs haven't. But unless you're on the Company Council, I doubt you can accurately predict what's going to happen. If they agree to restart only with voluntarily willing DIs, it'll be what it'll be.

 

[New applicant]

1

 

[bluesfromagun]

EDIT - I wrote an entire post here, all my own conjecture about what will happen, but I've deleted it because if you're a trainee and you're reading this, you don't need others opinions to worry you about things that may or may not happen.

 

[John Bishop]

waffling indeed.

You‘ve added absolutely nothing to this thread other than to say you don’t know why training hasn’t been resumed if it’s happening elsewhere or snidely dismissing any opinion that it’s because safety cant be guaranteed.

As for the anti training comment that’s just another example of your waffling and a poor attempt at trying to twist any opinion you don’t agree with as being negative.

Forgive me if I completely disregard the musings of someone that hasn’t been driving long enough to even take trainees in their cab Especially when it comes to the general feeling among other train drivers. You know absolutely nothing if you think drivers are happy to start wearing masks in the cab for hours per day just to resume driver training

Im not trying to twist any opinion my friend. Its your opinion that it’s not safe for training to take place, your entitled to that opinion. I counter that and present you with the facts that ASLEF, RSSB, ORR et al have deemed it safe and acceptable for 2 in a cab. I’m not sure why you need to be so defensive about this, because it doesn’t fit your opinion?

I‘m not exactly sure what you’ve contributed to this thread other than try and peddle your il informed notion that nobody in Scotrail wants to restart training and that its categorically not safe. You’ve still failed to acknowledge the fact (several times now) that ASLEF have deemed it safe to restart training, and numerous TOCs/ FOCs have, but of course that doesn’t fit does it. I ask again, are you claiming that these companies are performing unsafe practices by having 2 in a cab? I don't doubt that maybe everyone in your depot is against it, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the case across the whole network does it.

What has my experience got to do with it, a pretty pathetic and sad attempt to try and push your point across. Why do I need driving experience to know the feeling of drivers? I sit in the bothies, I talk to people. I know numerous who are happy to train so “you know absolutely nothing”. Don’t just take my word for it, cast your eye up this thread a bit and you will find other posters in other Scotrail depots who have said a similar thing. Maybe they know nothing either eh?

I’m not suggesting every single DI is happy to do it, but at the same time you cannot possibly say that everyone is against it. Have you spoken to every DI in Scotrail?

Can you categorically state that the reason training in Scotrail is not happening is because it’s not safe for 2 in a cab? Or as you put it, “Safety can’t be guaranteed“?

 

[320320]

Im not trying to twist any opinion my friend. Its your opinion that it’s not safe for training to take place, your entitled to that opinion. I counter that and present you with the facts that ASLEF, RSSB, ORR et al have deemed it safe and acceptable for 2 in a cab. I’m not sure why you need to be so defensive about this, because it doesn’t fit your opinion?

I‘m not exactly sure what you’ve contributed to this thread other than try and peddle your il informed notion that nobody in Scotrail wants to restart training and that its categorically not safe. You’ve still failed to acknowledge the fact (several times now) that ASLEF have deemed it safe to restart training, and numerous TOCs/ FOCs have, but of course that doesn’t fit does it. I ask again, are you claiming that these companies are performing unsafe practices by having 2 in a cab? I don't doubt that maybe everyone in your depot is against it, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the case across the whole network does it.

What has my experience got to do with it, a pretty pathetic and sad attempt to try and push your point across. Why do I need driving experience to know the feeling of drivers? I sit in the bothies, I talk to people. I know numerous who are happy to train so “you know absolutely nothing”. Don’t just take my word for it, cast your eye up this thread a bit and you will find other posters in other Scotrail depots who have said a similar thing. Maybe they know nothing either eh?

I’m not suggesting every single DI is happy to do it, but at the same time you cannot possibly say that everyone is against it. Have you spoken to every DI in Scotrail?

Can you categorically state that the reason training in Scotrail is not happening is because it’s not safe for 2 in a cab? Or as you put it, “Safety can’t be guaranteed“?

I’ve simply offered an opinion as to why training hasn’t restarted based on the general feeling of the overwhelming majority of drivers in the north Clyde area.
It’s a perfectly valid opinion as there has been absolutely no indication or reason given for the delay.
All you have offered is to say you don’t know why there’s an issue if it’s ok for everybody else without attempting to give any sort of explanation.
You keep going on about how other TOCs/FOCs are doing it so why don’t you enlighten the rest of us.
Which TOCs/FOCs have resumed training and which ones haven’t, what mitigation’s are in place for those that have and what are the reasons given for any others that haven’t restarted?

 

[Stigy]

I’ve simply offered an opinion as to why training hasn’t restarted based on the general feeling of the overwhelming majority of drivers in the north Clyde area.
It’s a perfectly valid opinion as there has been absolutely no indication or reason given for the delay.
All you have offered is to say you don’t know why there’s an issue if it’s ok for everybody else without attempting to give any sort of explanation.
You keep going on about how other TOCs/FOCs are doing it so why don’t you enlighten the rest of us.
Which TOCs/FOCs have resumed training and which ones haven’t, what mitigation’s are in place for those that have and what are the reasons given for any others that haven’t restarted?

GWR/HEX/SWR/Freightliner/Greater Anglia to name a few who have restarted training.

They have Clearly taken the view that two in a cab with the mitigations in place against Covid are as safe as it’s going to be.

Where I am we have to have weekly Covid tests (trainee and DI), as well as daily temperature checks before commencing duty. We will be with one DI in a training bubble for the duration of handling.

 

[baz962]

Not the newer trainee's , but the one's that were close to passing out . Also driver's that came over as qualified and those that were route refreshing are training at my toc. Weekly covid test's for di and trainee.

 

[Gedphones]

Not read this thread for a few days. Fiery stuff. But hey, my email inbox tells me next week is the start of National Inclusion Week at Scotrail, so can we all not just paint rainbows on our faces and put on our recycled dungarees and get on..... Unless you're a trainee. You just sit in the house and worry you're going to be out a job soon.

 

[320320]

Not read this thread for a few days. Fiery stuff. But hey, my email inbox tells me next week is the start of National Inclusion Week at Scotrail, so can we all not just paint rainbows on our faces and put on our recycled dungarees and get on..... Unless you're a trainee. You just sit in the house and worry you're going to be out a job soon.

I don’t think you need to be concerned about your job although i will be surprised to see a resumption of training this year. Scotrail have invested a lot of time and money in training you and the need for new drivers hasn’t went away.

Theres obviously a massive issue in getting you back in a cab and having spoken to a couple of LLC reps it appears to be that no agreement can be reached on the best and safest way forward. The usual cranks will no doubt say this is rubbish because other TOCs are managing but you should try to speak to the LLC reps at your depot, they’ll hopefully be able to offer some reassurance and allay your fears regarding job security.

 

[golfingdaddy]

So, looks like trainee's will be going back soon.

 

[kickin aff]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. I read the information that the union put out today which all reads well enough. However with the lastest restrictions coming into play from tomorrow I suspect they might prospone the restart. Time will tell.

 

[golfingdaddy]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. I read the information that the union put out today which all reads well enough. However with the lastest restrictions coming into play from tomorrow I suspect they might prospone the restart. Time will tell.

True, there is no confirmed return date yet, just that everything is in place for trainee's to go back.

Not sure the new restrictions would make any difference though?

 

[Driver1122]

.