Services that were withdrawn that should be reinstated

[Eagle]

Once a day from Brighton if I remember correctly and then a return service, so yes it was infrequent.....the Southampton service is 1 way only and no return service so not really that useful.

The Southampton to Edinburgh service isn't meant to be a service linking Southampton to Edinburgh. It's just an ordinary Southampton–Newcastle service that then continues to Edinburgh because that's where the unit stables at night. It's a balancing move, not an idea for a useful service.

 

[SussexSpotter]

The Southampton to Edinburgh service isn't meant to be a service linking Southampton to Edinburgh. It's just an ordinary Southampton–Newcastle service that then continues to Edinburgh because that's where the unit stables at night. It's a balancing move, not an idea for a useful service.

Fair point.....although didn't there used to be a return service linking Southampton to Aberdeen at one time????

 

[Eagle]

Fair point.....although didn't there used to be a return service linking Southampton to Aberdeen at one time????

That was in the days of Virgin XC, when the combinations of northern and southern destinations were different. Bournemouths and Plymouths all went to Scotland (alternately via Preston and via Leeds), Bristols went to Newcastle via Doncaster, and Readings (and by extension Brightons) went to Manchester. It had to be reshuffled to mitigate the route to Scotland via Preston being transferred to Virgin WC and TPE.

 

[JamesRowden]

Fair point.....although didn't there used to be a return service linking Southampton to Aberdeen at one time????

The the Reading to Birmingham part of the Bournemouth to Aberdeen service was in the news as the most overcrowded service in the south of the country. I expect that this was one of the reasons for it being withdrawn.

 

[Eagle]

Withdrawing a service because it's too overcrowded... that makes sense :roll:

Anyway it wasn't withdrawn, it still exists. Only difference is it now goes to Manchester instead.

 

[SussexSpotter]

The the Reading to Birmingham part of the Bournemouth to Aberdeen service was in the news as the most overcrowded service in the south of the country.

I find that very hard to believe.....look at how crowded some of these peak services are in London.

 

[JamesRowden]

I find that very hard to believe.....look at how crowded some of these peak services are in London.

I remember that the report stated that there were 7 people standing in the toilet!

However I can't find any record of the report (which I remember as being on 'South Today'). Maybe the report was wrong, I misunderstood it or my memory is wrong.

 

[yorksrob]

I used to travel between Birmingham and Reading quite often in the early noughties. Was frequently on the floor in the vestibule.

 

[dvboy]

I used to travel between Birmingham and Reading quite often in the early noughties. Was frequently on the floor in the vestibule.

Many people still do in the same fashion.

 

[tbtc]

I presume these services were never "frequent" - similar to how Southampton has 1tpd to Edinburgh in modern times?

IIRC it was just one train a day from Glasgow (?) to the south coast via Liverpool, more of a box-ticking exercise (and a tagging on of different services).

It is a shame that Brighton (and Gatwick) lost its XC services, especially as Brighton has a large urban area and is a popular destination in its own right. At least Portsmouth has access to XC services in nearby Southampton.

There are certainly a few large connurbations south of London, but the line speeds and the need to find paths crossing over other lines have meant that it's been hard to provide a competatively timed service to take advantage of them.

Regardless of the retrenchment of Cross Country from places like Ramsgate/ Brighton/ Portsmouth, it's perhaps significant that other "non London" links in the old Southern Region have been slowly chopped away (so not just due to XC):

We've discussed the SWT Brighton to Reading services on this thread but does anyone remember when Devon/Cornwall had Alphaline services to Brighton?

Southern don't seem keen on running their Milton Keynes/ Watford services through to Gatwick/ Brighton (or FGW extend their Reading - Gatwick service to Brighton), which suggests that there's more of a market for an eighth London service to/from Brighton than one to somewhere different.

 

[Eagle]

I used to travel between Birmingham and Reading quite often in the early noughties. Was frequently on the floor in the vestibule.

The Manchesters in particular are still bad in this area, although it's gotten better with the extra Southampton services meaning that passengers spread out a bit onto the Newcastles.

 

[SussexSpotter]

We've discussed the SWT Brighton to Reading services on this thread but does anyone remember when Devon/Cornwall had Alphaline services to Brighton?

Don't really remember them that well at all.....did they last long???? We must be talking late 90's here????

Southern don't seem keen on running their Milton Keynes/ Watford services through to Gatwick/ Brighton (or FGW extend their Reading - Gatwick service to Brighton), which suggests that there's more of a market for an eighth London service to/from Brighton than one to somewhere different.

I think you will find that is for 2 reasons:

A. There is no spare paths to run those services
B. There is no spare diesel stock to extend the Gatwick service to Brighton

That's not to say the demand isn't there for them types of services though.....

As for Brighton having an 8th London service.....Southern tried that in 2010 and it didn't work.....

 

[flymo]

We've discussed the SWT Brighton to Reading services on this thread but does anyone remember when Devon/Cornwall had Alphaline services to Brighton?

Don't really remember them that well at all.....did they last long???? We must be talking late 90's here????

The summer '98 TT shows no Alphaline services from Brighton to Devon/Cornwall but rather all of the Alphaline services at Brighton are shown as to/from South Wales under the auspices of Wales and West. (Various origins/destinations including Bridgend, Cardiff, Tenby and Pembroke Dock).

There was one solitary SWT service from Paignton on a Saturday. M-F this came from Basingstoke. No service into Devon is shown.

 

[tbtc]

I think you will find that is for 2 reasons:

A. There is no spare paths to run those services
B. There is no spare diesel stock to extend the Gatwick service to Brighton

That's not to say the demand isn't there for them types of services though.....

As for Brighton having an 8th London service.....Southern tried that in 2010

As you've said, Southern tried to find paths and stock for an eighth London - Brighton service but I've not seen any serious attempts by them (or another TOC) to introduce new links from Brighton to other places in the South East (other than central London).

The EMUs/paths required to run an extra London service could have been
used to extend the Milton Keynes service beyond Croydon to Gatwick/ Brighton, for example

 

[SussexSpotter]

As you've said, Southern tried to find paths and stock for an eighth London - Brighton service but I've not seen any serious attempts by them (or another TOC) to introduce new links from Brighton to other places in the South East (other than central London).

The EMUs/paths required to run an extra London service could have been
used to extend the Milton Keynes service beyond Croydon to Gatwick/ Brighton, for example

I think the main thing there is Southern and FCC are in competition with each other to run services on the Brighton line....and arn't really focused on anything else apart from running services bound for London terminals.

 

[Eagle]

I think you will find that is for 2 reasons:

A. There is no spare paths to run those services
B. There is no spare diesel stock to extend the Gatwick service to Brighton

Why diesel stock? Milton Keynes to Brighton is entirely electric.

 

[JamesRowden]

As you've said, Southern tried to find paths and stock for an eighth London - Brighton service but I've not seen any serious attempts by them (or another TOC) to introduce new links from Brighton to other places in the South East (other than central London).

The EMUs/paths required to run an extra London service could have been
used to extend the Milton Keynes service beyond Croydon to Gatwick/ Brighton, for example

Southern did find a path for a 4th Victoria-Brighton express service but were not allowed to run it. The reason was that First Capital Connect won an appeal against it on competition grounds.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Why diesel stock? Milton Keynes to Brighton is entirely electric.

''tbtc'' mentioned about extending the Reading-Gatwick service to Brighton.....I was referring to that

 

[Eagle]

''tbtc'' mentioned about extending the Reading-Gatwick service to Brighton.....I was referring to that

Oh right.

Of course in an ideal world that line would be electrified already; it's only Wokingham to Ash and Guildford to Reigate that need done. But I suspect we're now getting to the stage where new third-rail is dead in the water and almost all new electrification will be OHLE, so until a region-wide conversion to OHLE I can't see this line becoming electric.

 

[ushawk]

Oh right.

Of course in an ideal world that line would be electrified already; it's only Wokingham to Ash and Guildford to Reigate that need done. But I suspect we're now getting to the stage where new third-rail is dead in the water and almost all new electrification will be OHLE, so until a region-wide conversion to OHLE I can't see this line becoming electric.

Or you just use dual-voltage stock.....but then all recent new stock for 3rd rail lines is capable of running on OHLE, they just need pantographs added and a couple of internal computer changes.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm not so sure that a relativey small third rail infill is 'dead in the water'. There'll be more than enough recently built DC equipment removed from Basingstoke - Southampton (left over from the fairly recent SWML power supply strengthening for Desiros) to last 30 years or more if transferred to the north downs route.

As it is second hand and presumably already paid for costs for infill elsewhere should be reduced somewhat over new equipment...

 

[Eagle]

As it is second hand and presumably already paid for costs for infill elsewhere should be reduced somewhat over new equipment...

That is a good point I'd never considered.

Basingstoke to Southampton Docks is just over 34 miles, so taking into account the bits of four-track on that line that's about 80 track miles' worth of third rail equipment being removed. How much could be done with that?

 

[swt_passenger]

That is a good point I'd never considered.

Basingstoke to Southampton Docks is just over 34 miles, so taking into account the bits of four-track on that line that's about 80 track miles' worth of third rail equipment being removed. How much could be done with that?

It's not all the same age but I reckon at least a third of the substations that you can see from the train are relatively new. (e.g. at Swaything, Winchester, near Wallers Ash loop etc.) Much of the rest dates from the 1960s of course. But on the North Downs you are looking at a much lower service frequency, and of course it's unlikely the trains would be longer than four-car initially...

 

[SussexSpotter]

That is a good point I'd never considered.

Basingstoke to Southampton Docks is just over 34 miles, so taking into account the bits of four-track on that line that's about 80 track miles' worth of third rail equipment being removed. How much could be done with that?

It would be good if they used some of this second hand third rail to electrify the Marshlink.....

 

[swt_passenger]

It would be good if they used some of this second hand third rail to electrify the Marshlink.....

I think it's very likely it will happen - having a significant proportion of recently built DC supply equipment is a feature of all the main routes in the area, because both the Desiro and Electrostar fleets needed a vastly increased input power supply even before they started increasing fleet sizes. Indeed the DC area power supply strengthening (for train lengthening projects including for example the proposed Reading 10 car, and Thameslink) is still ongoing into CP5 - so they are definitely still fitting newly manufactured equipment.

 

[tbtc]

I think the main thing there is Southern and FCC are in competition with each other to run services on the Brighton line....and arn't really focused on anything else apart from running services bound for London terminals.

This is the problem with "competition" that people conveniently forget - it generally ends up with two companies trying to provide a very similar product (rather than one innovating).

But if there was a big demand for services from Brighton/ Gatwick to other destinations then there are apparently the spare EMUs and the spare paths (that were "spare" to squeeze an extra London train in) - the fact that there seems to be no will to run any alternative route (like Brighton to Watford/ Milton Keynes) suggests that the TOCs don't think it'd be a big market.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not so sure that a relativey small third rail infill is 'dead in the water'. There'll be more than enough recently built DC equipment removed from Basingstoke - Southampton (left over from the fairly recent SWML power supply strengthening for Desiros) to last 30 years or more if transferred to the north downs route.

As it is second hand and presumably already paid for costs for infill elsewhere should be reduced somewhat over new equipment...

That is a good point I'd never considered

I'll admit I'd not considered it either - interesting!

 

[D6975]

Now that 25kV overhead extends to Ashford, there would be a strong argument for extending this down the marshlink rather than 3rd rail. 395 to Hastings anyone
Other places like Uckfield are remote from 25kV lines and therefore more likely candidates for 3rd rail surely.

All this talk of long distance through services makes me wonder how many passengers would actually use these end to end (or near end to end).

I live in Bristol and I quite often travel on Cardiff-Pompeys. These arrive and depart TM well loaded, but not with the same passengers. The train almost empties and then loads up again, very few people don't get off at TM (both directions). What is more, those who do travel through are often only from/to Bath. I suspect this happens on many other routes too, well loaded for much of the journey, but not many people doing long distances.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Now that 25kV overhead extends to Ashford, there would be a strong argument for extending this down the marshlink rather than 3rd rail. 395 to Hastings anyone

I certainly wouldn't complain if Southeastern Javelins went to Hastings.....

 

[Eagle]

I certainly wouldn't complain if Southeastern Javelins went to Hastings...

Not possible I'm afraid. The track layout at Ashford means it's impossible to get a train from HS1 (only connects to p3-6) to the Marshlink (only connects to p1-2).

 

[12CSVT]

I certainly wouldn't complain if Southeastern Javelins went to Hastings.....

Not sure that the bean counters would approve of 140 m.p.h. units pootling along the Marshlink route with a dozen passengers.