Should bullying in schools be banned?

[Sorcerer]

I'm sorry, but "doing something to wind someone up" IS bullying, unless it's entirely reciprocal.

Oh but of course, the reciprocal part is just as important, and this is probably another area where some people won't recognise something as actual bullying because they expect the victim to draw the line. I've never actually whipped a friend with a towel before even, but if I did then I wouldn't go much further if it became clear they weren't in the mood for such messing around. Again, I think boundaries are important to recognise when it comes to things like this; whipping someone who has made clear that they do not wish to mess around in such a way is very different than two young lads doing it voluntarily in the name of good banter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh but of course, the reciprocal part is just as important, and this is probably another area where some people won't recognise something as actual bullying because they expect the victim to draw the line. I've never actually whipped a friend with a towel before even, but if I did then I wouldn't go much further if it became clear they weren't in the mood for such messing around. Again, I think boundaries are important to recognise when it comes to things like this; whipping someone who has made clear that they do not wish to mess around in such a way is very different than two young lads doing it voluntarily in the name of good banter.

Much easier is that you get changed in the changing room and keep that sort of behaviour out. As I said all horseplay in changing rooms should be stamped on hard. There's no real need for it and there's a high chance it could be bullying.

 

[Gloster]

Anecdotal evidence from two female friends who went to girls boarding schools in the late 1970s and early 1980s was that bullying was a lot less physical than at boys schools, but a lot more sophisticated: ganging up was more common. However, they both thought that most girls grew out of it earlier than boys.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I actually find this interesting because I would initially think that bullying between boys would be higher than between girls but I also wonder how the presence of girls might affect the type of bullying between boys.

In my experience, the introduction of girls to an otherwise male-only school setting dampens down considerably on boisterous behaviour. For fear of coming across as a bit of a prat.

With regards to your first point, anecdotal evidence would suggest the opposite. Many instances of bullying in boys schools were resolved after a day or two, whereas the equivalent in girls schools might last for years.

 

[Dent]

Oh but of course, the reciprocal part is just as important, and this is probably another area where some people won't recognise something as actual bullying because they expect the victim to draw the line. I've never actually whipped a friend with a towel before even, but if I did then I wouldn't go much further if it became clear they weren't in the mood for such messing around.

The phrase "wouldn't go much further" sets alarm bells ringing, if you really respected boundaries then you wouldn't go any further after you knew that you behavior was unwelcome.

 

[Bald Rick]

Anecdotal evidence from two female friends who went to girls boarding schools in the late 1970s and early 1980s was that bullying was a lot less physical than at boys schools, but a lot more sophisticated: ganging up was more common. However, they both thought that most girls grew out of it earlier than boys.

Bullying by girls is typically much more psychological; that by boys more physical.

psychological bullying is much harder to identify and prove, unfortunately. Which is why teenage girls in particular tend to suffer high rates of mental health issues.

 

[najaB]

I'm sorry, but "doing something to wind someone up" IS bullying, unless it's entirely reciprocal.

I get what you're saying, but I think you didn't use the right word. It's isn't reciprocity that matters but rather the relationship between the people involved. If the action is both meant and taken without malintent then it's fine, but if either party feels taken advantage of then there's a problem. In other words, if the reaction is "Okay, you got me" that is just normal 'laddish' behaviour.

So it's not reciprocity of action but rather of feeling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I get what you're saying, but I think you didn't use the right word. It's isn't reciprocity that matters but rather the relationship between the people involved. If the action is both meant and taken without malintent then it's fine, but if either party feels taken advantage of then there's a problem. In other words, if the reaction is "Okay, you got me" that is just normal 'laddish' behaviour.

So it's not reciprocity of action but rather of feeling.

Yes, that's a better way of putting it. Overall, though, because there's a very high chance of it not being taken in that way, teachers should be acting to prevent any such behaviour in changing rooms. (I'm well aware of the difficulties supervising changing rooms pose in terms of potential Safeguarding allegations, though).

 

[najaB]

Yes, that's a better way of putting it. Overall, though, because there's a very high chance of it not being taken in that way, teachers should be acting to prevent any such behaviour in changing rooms. (I'm well aware of the difficulties supervising changing rooms pose in terms of potential Safeguarding allegations, though).

The only real solution is to make sure that students know that they can report bullying and that the matter will be dealt with robustly, but without blowing things out of proportion. An all too common story when young people turn to self-harm or suicide is "I didn't say anything because I didn't think anyone would take it seriously" or "I didn't want to get them in trouble, because it would just make things worse".

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only real solution is to make sure that students know that they can report bullying and that the matter will be dealt with robustly, but without blowing things out of proportion. An all too common story when young people turn to self-harm or suicide is "I didn't say anything because I didn't think anyone would take it seriously" or "I didn't want to get them in trouble, because it would just make things worse".

The other solution in that context is to accept that open changing areas are a dated concept and to provide floor to ceiling*, lockable** changing and shower cubicles plus lockers in a unisex area like are a basic expectation at public facilities these days. Even if that means there's limited space so a bit of queueing to use them.

* This bit is important, as classic school toilet bullying involves chucking wet bog roll over cubicles onto the person seated therein, or reaching underneath and stealing bags/clothing etc.
** And not easily unlockable without e.g. a key the teacher might have for emergencies, as otherwise the bullies will be sure to have a 1p coin or screwdriver on them to turn the lock from the outside.

 

[najaB]

The other solution in that context is to accept that open changing areas are a dated concept and to provide floor to ceiling*, lockable** changing and shower cubicles plus lockers in a unisex area like are a basic expectation at public facilities these days. Even if that means there's limited space so a bit of queueing to use them.

That's true where changing rooms are concerned and it's not like the additional expense would be prohibtiive.

My comments about the reporting process and how reports are handled was more aimed at the general bullying problem, as changing rooms aren't the only problem areas where teacher supervision is concerned.

 

[Dent]

The other solution in that context is to accept that open changing areas are a dated concept and to provide floor to ceiling*, lockable** changing and shower cubicles plus lockers in a unisex area like are a basic expectation at public facilities these days. Even if that means there's limited space so a bit of queueing to use them.

How much would allowing time for queuing for changing cubicles at each end of a PE lesson eat into the time available for the actual physical activity? That doesn't really sound practical.

 

[Huntergreed]

To answer the original question, bullying is banned in schools - and I would hope anyone would know that!

I have worked in several schools and, contrary to many of the horror stories that posters here seem to recall/anecdotally know, the vast majority of teachers and schools that I know take the issue or bullying extremely seriously. I am very concerned to hear accusations of bullying and misbehavior being “covered up” or “ignored” by schools.

I assure you that the vast, vast majority of teachers (and all school staff) want nothing more than for young people to feel safe, included and valued in their school life and will take proactive measures (such as looking out for and reporting/investigating any changes in appearance, engagement, behavior and attainment) to ensure this is the case.

I find it very concerning and slightly difficult to believe that schools are deliberately ignoring and/or covering up known incidents of bullying and or mistreatments, and if this is the case I hope the staff members involved are dealt with accordingly.

 

[johnnychips]

I would have thought that any sort of showers after PE - communal or otherwise - would be rare these days because of time constraints and the availability of deodorant, and much wider availability of showers when you get home.

 

[Welly]

To answer the original question, bullying is banned in schools - and I would hope anyone would know that!

...

I assure you that the vast, vast majority of teachers (and all school staff) want nothing more than for young people to feel safe, included and valued in their school life and will take proactive measures (such as looking out for and reporting/investigating any changes in appearance, engagement, behavior and attainment) to ensure this is the case.

...

I started secondary school 40 years ago in a completely different culture - I'm very pleased to read of this culture change for the better since I left school.

 

[johncrossley]

To answer the original question, bullying is banned in schools - and I would hope anyone would know that!

I have worked in several schools and, contrary to many of the horror stories that posters here seem to recall/anecdotally know, the vast majority of teachers and schools that I know take the issue or bullying extremely seriously. I am very concerned to hear accusations of bullying and misbehavior being “covered up” or “ignored” by schools.

I assure you that the vast, vast majority of teachers (and all school staff) want nothing more than for young people to feel safe, included and valued in their school life and will take proactive measures (such as looking out for and reporting/investigating any changes in appearance, engagement, behavior and attainment) to ensure this is the case.

I find it very concerning and slightly difficult to believe that schools are deliberately ignoring and/or covering up known incidents of bullying and or mistreatments, and if this is the case I hope the staff members involved are dealt with accordingly.

But, in practice, are a lot of children still being bullied, despite the best intentions of school staff? The well publicised events in south Wales prompted me to start this thread. Is that just a one-off?

 

[Huntergreed]

But, in practice, are a lot of children still being bullied, despite the best intentions of school staff? The well publicised events in south Wales prompted me to start this thread. Is that just a one-off?

There are certainly instances of bullying and I don't think anyone can deny that (it's sadly impossible to completely phase this out!) - the point I was trying to make was simply that those saying that staff will willingly 'turn a blind eye' to bullying should be assured that the staff doing this are in the minority and that teachers are trained (certainly recently qualified teachers are anyway) to actively look out for and prevent instances of bullying.

(This is coming from a Scottish education perspective, which I am trained in, to be fair)

 

[duncanp]

There are certainly instances of bullying and I don't think anyone can deny that (it's sadly impossible to completely phase this out!) - the point I was trying to make was simply that those saying that staff will willingly 'turn a blind eye' to bullying should be assured that the staff doing this are in the minority and that teachers are trained (certainly recently qualified teachers are anyway) to actively look out for and prevent instances of bullying.

(This is coming from a Scottish education perspective, which I am trained in, to be fair)

It is often not the teaching staff who try and cover up bullying, carrying of knives and other misbehaviour in schools.

It can be the head teachers. education officials and councillors who put their heads in the sand.

My information comes froma friend who is a retired teacher who used to be at a school in the West of Scotland.

On several occasions he had to confiscate knives from pupils. but when he reported it to the head teacher, nothing was done and no action taken against the offending pupil.

Things may have improved recently, but I have no reason to doubt that what he says is true.

 

[yorkie]

All you'd need to do is report the head to Governors and the local authority, surely? I just can't see it happening; not these days, anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2022 ==

But, in practice, are a lot of children still being bullied, despite the best intentions of school staff?

How many is "a lot" and how do you define "bullying", how would you measure it etc...

In my experience a lot of ongoing/longstanding bullying issues can be down to there being some blame on both sides. If there is blame exclusively on one side it tends to be very easy for schools to put a stop to it; often before it gets to the category of 'bullying'.

The well publicised events in south Wales prompted me to start this thread. Is that just a one-off?

If your are referring to anything from an external source, please include a link to, and quote from, that source; if the thread was created in reference to a source then the best thing to do would be to edit the opening post accordingly, to add context.

As I don't know what these events are, I've no idea. But I would endorse the views/experiences stated by @Huntergreed as being accurate to the best of my knowledge.

 

[johncrossley]

How many is "a lot" and how do you define "bullying", how would you measure it etc...

I have no idea how prevalent it is nowadays. I'm middle aged without kids. But I know it was huge when I was at school.

If your are referring to anything from an external source, please include a link to, and quote from, that source; if the thread was created in reference to a source then the best thing to do would be to edit the opening post accordingly, to add context.

I was thinking of this event

Abertillery: Outrage after Raheem Bailey loses finger

Celebrities back a boy who lost a finger reportedly fleeing bullies and his school closes for a day.

www.bbc.co.uk

Equality campaigners have voiced outrage that a boy lost his finger after reportedly fleeing bullies.

Raheem Bailey, 11, caught his finger climbing a fence to escape, and it could not be saved despite surgery.

It made me think about creating this thread, but I didn't intend to talk about the specifics of this case as I thought a wider discussion on bullying might be more useful.

 

[najaB]

I was thinking of this event...

That kind of thing is exceedingly rare and, I would say, calling it bullying is downplaying the severity of the attack.

 

[Yew]

I assure you that the vast, vast majority of teachers (and all school staff) want nothing more than for young people to feel safe, included and valued in their school life and will take proactive measures (such as looking out for and reporting/investigating any changes in appearance, engagement, behavior and attainment) to ensure this is the case.

Ignore it and they'll stop hassling you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2022 ==

There are certainly instances of bullying and I don't think anyone can deny that (it's sadly impossible to completely phase this out!) - the point I was trying to make was simply that those saying that staff will willingly 'turn a blind eye' to bullying should be assured that the staff doing this are in the minority and that teachers are trained (certainly recently qualified teachers are anyway) to actively look out for and prevent instances of bullying.

So I think there is always a difficulty for staff, an interaction that could be friendly banter for one pair of people, could be part of a campaign of bullying for another pair; I think that's always going to be difficult for school staff to judge.

 

[Sorcerer]

I feel like this difficulty for staff to judge is a good reason why they can't be completely relied on to deal with bullies. As I've mentioned, two friends messing around with towels is different than one person harassing another with a towel simply because of the relationship between both people, and it's especially difficult if staff don't know the full extent of the relationship between two students. This is why it's just as important for children to be taught how to recognise and set boundaries and to stand up for themselves when appropriate, because expecting the staff alone to resolve all instances of bullying is not only piling on unnecessary pressures when they aren't aware of things such as the actual relationships between individual students but it's also setting the kids up to be doormats if they aren't taught how to respect themselves.

 

[TravelDream]

One point I think worth mentioning is the difference in bullying between single-sex/co-ed schools. Having attended both, I can confidently say that bullying of any description was much more prevalent in (in my case) all boys schools. General p***-taking was largely overlooked by teachers, even right under their noses, as character building and thus not important enough to warrant action.

By contrast, when I was in a co-ed school, the leadership took a very hard line 'zero-tolerance' approach to bullying of any kind, being very liberal in dishing out punishments anywhere from detention to expulsion.

I went to a single-sex boys' school and think the teachers there took bullying pretty seriously.
Of course it went on, but certainly not under the noses of teachers. I think a lot of it comes from leadership culture and expectations. Sadly too many schools have pretty low expectations and a poor leadership culture. I don't blame the teachers. It's generally a pretty poorly-paid job given the hours and the crap that they have to deal with.

Just to add with changing rooms, they can still be supervised through things like sound supervision or time limits. Our PE teachers didn't watch us get changed, but they'd be straight in if there was any shouting/ commotion.

 

[nw1]

There should certainly be "school rules" against genuine bullying (as opposed to harmless 'messing around').

 

[ainsworth74]

I was just reading the Self-Evaluation for the school where I am a governor which contained the following:

• Bullying is not tolerated. A clear anti-bullying policy is in place, which is understood and followed by all. This is dealt with quickly by a senior member of staff so that it is not allowed to spread, which is documented on CPOMs.

(CPOMs is used as part of wellbeing, pastoral and safeguarding so you can monitor issues and trends)

I just don't recognise any suggestion that it isn't taken seriously and if there was any suggestion at my school that it wasn't taken seriously tough questions would be being asked of the Senior Leadership Team.

 

[Phil56]

I was mercilessly bullied at school, both verbal and physical. Teachers just weren't interested. Two of the worst bullies had surnames very close to mine in the alphabet. It was the default to sort class groups into surname alphabetical order, so I always got in a group with one or other of them (or both) which made group working/team working impossible as they'd just spend the entire time mocking me, hitting me, stealing things or damaging things of mine. (It has led to a lifetime of choosing jobs where I work on my own as I still can't work in any kind of team because of the mental effect it caused). I asked/pleaded with teachers many, many times to be put in different groups because of the bullying, but nearly all the teachers just glibly said, we can't do it any other way or everyone will want to be with their friends. So basically they thought I was being fussy. If it was one teacher, fair enough, but it was nearly all of them, and protracted over a five year period. I asked to change forms, but told no space available in other forms. The teachers just didn't take it seriously, even when I showed them bruises, torn books, damaged bag, etc. I also got the usual brain dead comments of "ignore them" (difficult when they're burning you with a fag end), or you must be doing something to antagonise them, etc - i.e. the usual victim blaming.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2022 ==

There should certainly be "school rules" against genuine bullying (as opposed to harmless 'messing around').

But "harmless messing around" becomes damaging when it's one sided, repeated, ongoing, etc. Where do you draw the line? I'm sure that vast majority of bullies thought they were just harmlessly messing around, but I'm sure that's not how it feels to those on the receiving end all the time!

 

[kristiang85]

I was bullied pretty badly at school; I never really thought it affected me long-term, until recent years when I noticed I still get nightmares about it (in my late 30s!).

Luckily, outwardly it didn't have any long-term social effects on me (the moment I was out of school and at university I went from being a social outcast to the life and soul of most parties), but no child should ever had to go through that kind of thing.

I'm not sure how it can be completely got rid of though - children are children, and unless you want to impose draconian surveillance on them everywhere, which I don't believe in (it will only do harm to the majority who don't engage in such behaviour), it will sadly have to be a fact of life for many when growing up. But teachers and parents need to be fully aware of signs of bullying so they can step in early and any perpetrators should have the full book thrown at them.

 

[yorkie]

I was mercilessly bullied at school, both verbal and physical. Teachers just weren't interested. Two of the worst bullies had surnames very close to mine in the alphabet. It was the default to sort class groups into surname alphabetical order, so I always got in a group with one or other of them (or both) which made group working/team working impossible as they'd just spend the entire time mocking me, hitting me, stealing things or damaging things of mine.

This must surely have been a long time ago. Seating plans are done very differently today and if incidents of bullying are occuring, the relevant students will be separated.

(It has led to a lifetime of choosing jobs where I work on my own as I still can't work in any kind of team because of the mental effect it caused). I asked/pleaded with teachers many, many times to be put in different groups because of the bullying, but nearly all the teachers just glibly said, we can't do it any other way or everyone will want to be with their friends. So basically they thought I was being fussy.

These days a parent can simply make the request and it would be enacted. If things were different back in your day then that was very wrong. Some people are keen to say how our society was so much 'better' back in the "good olden days" of the 1950s/60s/70s/whatever and that just isn't true.

If it was one teacher, fair enough, but it was nearly all of them, and protracted over a five year period. I asked to change forms, but told no space available in other forms. The teachers just didn't take it seriously, even when I showed them bruises, torn books, damaged bag, etc. I also got the usual brain dead comments of "ignore them" (difficult when they're burning you with a fag end), or you must be doing something to antagonise them, etc - i.e. the usual victim blaming.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2022 ==


But "harmless messing around" becomes damaging when it's one sided, repeated, ongoing, etc. Where do you draw the line? I'm sure that vast majority of bullies thought they were just harmlessly messing around, but I'm sure that's not how it feels to those on the receiving end all the time!

Sorry to hear this happened to you. This wouldn't happen today

 

[DelayRepay]

A friend was telling me their child (a 13 year old boy) had complained about being bullied by a group of girls. She (the mum) had spoken to the school who had been supportive, but the teacher explained it's a lot harder for them to deal with such allegations these days because a lot of the bullying takes place outside of school, often online or on social media. I'm not really sure how much a teacher can do about that?

Bullying was terrible at my school, and the staff were in complete denial. Often the victim was punished and the bully treated as the victim. All while the headmaster proudly told everyone that there was no bullying at his school. That was in the 1990s though, so a long time ago now.