Should Carstairs station be closed or the area developed for more housing?

[zwk500]

Or.....hear me out....do things that encourage uptake at the station....

The idea of closing stations today is even more mad than it was 65 years ago.

mods note - split from this thread

It's not totally mad, Lanark and Carluke aren't that far away, and Carstairs is in the middle of a really awkward bit of main line to serve. Had it not been for the Sleeper, closure may well have been the more effective option (and tbh the Sleeper could easily have split at Carlisle or Mossend yard if they'd really wanted to get rid of Carstairs station.

Remember what the railway needs is revenue, not passengers. Local stations should not be maintained on mainlines to the prejudice of trains that actually generate revenue, like the premier London-Scottish expresses (Reston looking at you).

 

[jfollows]

A lot of people who live near to Carstairs station are probably not allowed out to catch a train, also.

 

[InOban]

Not allowed out full stop!

I would assume that there is no other public transport and that there will be demand from family members of those who work at the State Hospital.

 

[jfollows]

Yes, it's probably a source of a little traffic for non-residents.
I have to admit I've used Carstairs once, to change from a very early Manchester-Glasgow Voyager service in early Virgin days into a Pendolino to Edinburgh, which then worked back to Euston. Then a couple of times on a train which split there in the 1970s. And that's about it. Most of the trains I've been on since then have passed through, either to Glasgow or - slowly - to Edinburgh. So that passage will be much improved now anyway.

 

[Chris Hamilton]

It's not totally mad, Lanark and Carluke aren't that far away, and Carstairs is in the middle of a really awkward bit of main line to serve. Had it not been for the Sleeper, closure may well have been the more effective option (and tbh the Sleeper could easily have split at Carlisle or Mossend yard if they'd really wanted to get rid of Carstairs station.

Remember what the railway needs is revenue, not passengers. Local stations should not be maintained on mainlines to the prejudice of trains that actually generate revenue, like the premier London-Scottish expresses (Reston looking at you).

The idea of closing stations is heavily resisted, and let’s not forget, this will be the second major change at Carstairs since it ceased being used as a primary InterCity station. It has already been rebuilt once, when Strathclyde Transport demolished the old station.

Up until the introduction of regular TPE services to Edinburgh, it was a very popular interchange in the morning, with a northbound train (from Manchester) stopping, and passengers from Edinburgh changing over. That’s the primary reason that the station was (and remains) staffed in the AM only, although that interchange no longer occurs.

Lanarkshire is an odd place geographically. I know, I live there. I “technically” live in Carluke, my address and postcode are Carluke. But Carluke itself is 3-4 miles away, at the top of a steep valley. By public transport I have no link to Carluke, or its station. My bus takes me to Lanark. There are no trains to Edinburgh from Lanark and taking the train from Lanark to Carluke to change for Edinburgh makes for a very tight connection in the morning at Carluke (last time I had to run, very fast, over the icy footbridge). So, actually, it’s a smoother connection for me, a resident of Carluke (but in the valley), to take a bus from Lanark to Carstairs, which meets the train with 10mins to spare. I don’t do it often, but it shows what comes of my easiest accessed station (Lanark) being on a branch.

Carstairs probably doesn’t justify its huge investment over the last 20 years (since it was first rebuilt) in terms of passenger numbers. But it does serve a vital purpose for a relatively isolated community. I stand by the “if you build it, they will come” philosophy. If Carstairs had a regular (hourly) Glasgow bound service (extending the Whifflet to Wishaw empties) with maybe alternate hours extending to Edinburgh, along with good secure parking and buses to Lanark, Carnwath and even Biggar, I contend that it would be a very popular station, as it has a huge hinterland.

 

[zwk500]

Carstairs probably doesn’t justify its huge investment over the last 20 years (since it was first rebuilt) in terms of passenger numbers. But it does serve a vital purpose for a relatively isolated community. I stand by the “if you build it, they will come” philosophy. If Carstairs had a regular (hourly) Glasgow bound service (extending the Whifflet to Wishaw empties) with maybe alternate hours extending to Edinburgh, along with good secure parking and buses to Lanark, Carnwath and even Biggar, I contend that it would be a very popular station, as it has a huge hinterland.

If you build it, they will come, only really works if you also build a large amount of houses in the vicinity of the station, a point often overlooked by focusing on usage figures exclusively.

I'm all for building basically a new town between Carstairs Station (or is it Carstairs Junction?) and the original Carstairs village. I suspect the locals won't be overly thrilled though - but I will bow to you're superior local knowledge.

 

[Chris Hamilton]

If you build it, they will come, only really works if you also build a large amount of houses in the vicinity of the station, a point often overlooked by focusing on usage figures exclusively.

I'm all for building basically a new town between Carstairs Station (or is it Carstairs Junction?) and the original Carstairs village. I suspect the locals won't be overly thrilled though - but I will bow to you're superior local knowledge.

Maybe not a new town, but there is certainly pent up demand for new housing in the area. A few new homes have popped up around Lanark, mostly of the high value type. I could see Carstairs Junction, which has a reasonable amount of “brownfield” previously developed space being useful. Even Carnwath, which is a little more developed, but hasn’t seen any new development in a very long time. They could be useful commuter towns for Edinburgh.

However, having worked in Carstairs S&T in the past, and knowing a few folk there, you will never join those two villages. They have a very odd, baffling and fierce rivalry. Never confuse “The Junction” and “The Village”.

Locally, there is a regular push in Lanark for it to have a direct Edinburgh service. I’ve tried to argue why that’s unfeasable on the local pages, but always just seen as a naysayer (the locals can‘t see why they can’t just reverse trains on the main line at Cleghorn crossing). But that’s where I believe Carstairs could play a part. If the people of Lanark, could reliably use Carstairs, they would. But at the moment, if a train is cancelled, it can be really tricky to get back there (if your car is there for example), so they use Carluke. But Carluke is awkward for people with limited mobility (to change platforms as an interchange) and is quite far from the main bus routes. Carstairs is a single platform, that’s about to get a lift. It has a bus route that stops right at the entrance. I see potential in that.

 

[zwk500]

Carstairs is a single platform, that’s about to get a lift. It has a bus route that stops right at the entrance. I see potential in that.

Certainly potential. But bus connections need integrated fares and guaranteed connections, which there is certainly a lack of political willpower for in England - are Scotgov any better?

An AFA footbridge at Carluke may be easier to secure, although then you have to run the service through to somewhere. Terminating at Carstairs would presumably be relatively straightforward as it could sit in the Down Platform or shunt to the Up Loop if needed.

 

[najaB]

Certainly potential. But bus connections need integrated fares and guaranteed connections, which there is certainly a lack of political willpower for in England - are Scotgov any better?

It will be difficult to maintain a guaranteed bus to train connection given how busy the line is, especially as you get closer to Glasgow. That said, the roads around Carstairs aren't particularly busy so the bus shouldn't be delayed by much very often. Though, this is probably better suited to a thread in the Speculative Ideas sub-forum.

 

[jayah]

Or.....hear me out....do things that encourage uptake at the station....

The idea of closing stations today is even more mad than it was 65 years ago.

You can't have a policy that no station ever closes, even if nobody uses it or the cost of serving it is 100 times the revenue.

That would be mad!

 

[jayah]

Certainly potential. But bus connections need integrated fares and guaranteed connections, which there is certainly a lack of political willpower for in England - are Scotgov any better?

An AFA footbridge at Carluke may be easier to secure, although then you have to run the service through to somewhere. Terminating at Carstairs would presumably be relatively straightforward as it could sit in the Down Platform or shunt to the Up Loop if needed.

A bus connection isn't going to turn the dial. Only a new town with 5,000 new housing units would come close to making that station viable.

You can't 'guarentee' a connection to Manchester or Edinburgh out of a local bus.

 

[jayah]

If you build it, they will come, only really works if you also build a large amount of houses in the vicinity of the station, a point often overlooked by focusing on usage figures exclusively.

I'm all for building basically a new town between Carstairs Station (or is it Carstairs Junction?) and the original Carstairs village. I suspect the locals won't be overly thrilled though - but I will bow to you're superior local knowledge.

Tell them they have to choose between losing the station or getting the houses.

My money would be on ditching the station immediately.

 

[zwk500]

Tell them they have to choose between losing the station or getting the houses.

My money would be on ditching the station immediately.

Not the case, because the station is needed for the Sleeper.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Pre Covid Carstairs was used by around 80k passengers per year. Not enormous but certainly more than many other stations.

 

[Wynd]

You can't have a policy that no station ever closes, even if nobody uses it or the cost of serving it is 100 times the revenue.

That would be mad!

Yes, I can see that my inability to support closing a mainline station that's just had £164m of public money spent on it and its surrounding track work is a mad position to take ...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it actually in the way of 2tph of Glasgow fasts? I doubt it.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Not the case, because the station is needed for the Sleeper.

The station itself is not needed for the sleeper (although it is of course a booked passenger call), just a layout that enables splitting and joining. For many years sleepers were split and joined on the main running lines at Mossend.

 

[zwk500]

Is it actually in the way of 2tph of Glasgow fasts? I doubt it.

With the new layout especially I can't see it blocking any serious capacity.

The station itself is not needed for the sleeper (although it is of course a booked passenger call), just a layout that enables splitting and joining. For many years sleepers were split and joined on the main running lines at Mossend.

And for many years shunters didn't wear PPE. If the station was demolished they would still need a safe walking route and the loops. Given the usage quoted above you may as well keep the station.

 

[Falcon1200]

You can't have a policy that no station ever closes, even if nobody uses it or the cost of serving it is 100 times the revenue.

Although that is exactly the situation we had in Scotland at Breich!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although that is exactly the situation we had in Scotland at Breich!

Breich was silly, but Carstairs does serve a purpose and not inhibit other purposes, so I can't see any reason to close it.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

With the new layout especially I can't see it blocking any serious capacity.

And for many years shunters didn't wear PPE. If the station was demolished they would still need a safe walking route and the loops. Given the usage quoted above you may as well keep the station.

I certainly wasn't suggesting the station should close, merely that the station itself was not essential to the sleeper operation.

In the context of the sleeper making a passenger stop it would be interesting to know to what extent residents of e.g. Lanark, Carnwath, the two Carstairs communities etc actually use the sleeper. I days gone by one could read the joining/alighting points of passengers on the list stuck to the windows of sleeping car doors, I assume this is no longer the case.

 

[zwk500]

I certainly wasn't suggesting the station should close, merely that the station itself was not essential to the sleeper operation.

In the context of the sleeper making a passenger stop it would be interesting to know to what extent residents of e.g. Lanark, Carnwath, the two Carstairs communities etc actually use the sleeper. I days gone by one could read the joining/alighting points of passengers on the list stuck to the windows of sleeping car doors, I assume this is no longer the case.

Operationally, it costs nothing really to accept passengers for the station. However financially if you're filling the berths with longer distance traffic I can see why they don't advertise the stop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Operationally, it costs nothing really to accept passengers for the station. However financially if you're filling the berths with longer distance traffic I can see why they don't advertise the stop.

I think it's more because of operational flexibility - it's one more place to worry about if running a different route. The financial thing can be resolved by just charging the same as Glasgow/Edinburgh (assuming people are talking about people going to/from London).

 

[zwk500]

I think it's more because of operational flexibility - it's one more place to worry about if running a different route.

The only time they'd need to worry about that is if they're running via the ECML, and in that case they would just need to make sure Carstairs passengers are in the Glasgow portion. The only other route to Scotland is the GSW, which would mean switching to diesel at Carlisle and clearing Mk5s over it.

The financial thing can be resolved by just charging the same as Glasgow/Edinburgh (assuming people are talking about people going to/from London).

You'd still have less opportunity to get that little bit extra out of the lounge car, even if you did charge the same. Having said that, would the stewards attempt to stop alighting if you just purchased a Glasgow ticket and set your own alarm?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only time they'd need to worry about that is if they're running via the ECML, and in that case they would just need to make sure Carstairs passengers are in the Glasgow portion. The only other route to Scotland is the GSW, which would mean switching to diesel at Carlisle and clearing Mk5s over it.

I've been on one where they did the split on plain line just south of the station. I can't remember why they didn't go in.

You'd still have less opportunity to get that little bit extra out of the lounge car, even if you did charge the same. Having said that, would the stewards attempt to stop alighting if you just purchased a Glasgow ticket and set your own alarm?

I assume the doors aren't released?

 

[zwk500]

I've been on one where they did the split on plain line just south of the station. I can't remember why they didn't go in.

I didn't realise the signalling allowed the loco to be called onto the front to take the East Curve. Barring infrastructure failure I don't see why they would choose to do that.

I assume the doors aren't released?

Probably, but presumably at least 1 door is released locally for the decouple process. A polite word to the Steward may well be enough. I'll have to ride it one day to see what happens (although I'll probably be asleep then).

 

[Bartsimho]

So much relies on the politics of new housing developments. They are desperately needed but usually have opposition (so brownfield sites can be great at alleviating that, also I think that all new developments should have some provision for a separated transport system whether it be Guided Busway, Trams, Light Rail or Trains).
I would say a new development at Carstairs would be sensible with a Glasgow-Motherwell-Carstairs-Wester Hailes-Edinburgh type commuter service both ways at Peak times to facilitate it as an area as commuter territory for both cities.

 

[Meerkat]

Does sound like yet another example where the local people and councils should be told that the station is closing in 2 or 3 years time (gives time for people to move or change jobs etc) unless they create usage - ie build smaller houses all around it, or some kind of destination.

 

[M&NEJ]

What happens if Beattock station gets re-instated? Does Carstairs not fit with the idea of a Carlisle - Glasgow "stopper"?

 

[zwk500]

What happens if Beattock station gets re-instated? Does Carstairs not fit with the idea of a Carlisle - Glasgow "stopper"?

Carstairs would be least of the problems with a stopper on that route. The freight is looped enough as it is, without a train stopping at Beattock and Lockerbie chucked into the mix.