Should Carstairs station be closed or the area developed for more housing?

[Bletchleyite]

Does sound like yet another example where the local people and councils should be told that the station is closing in 2 or 3 years time (gives time for people to move or change jobs etc) unless they create usage - ie build smaller houses all around it, or some kind of destination.

Why? It's not in the way, nor does it have huge costs coming that aren't already being spent?

If you just closed it "just because", I reckon you'd want to close about 20% of stations across the UK in similar "lowish usage but not really in the way" situations, including a few entire lines.

As to housing, perhaps some should be built or not. Reston should probably get a New Town built around it to make it less utterly useless too. But I wouldn't make it to do with station closure.

 

[zwk500]

Why? It's not in the way, nor does it have huge costs coming that aren't already being spent?

If you just closed it "just because", I reckon you'd want to close about 20% of stations across the UK in similar "lowish usage but not really in the way" situations, including a few entire lines.

Indeed. Stations on lines that are holding their own are just marginal cost, and should be developed rather than closed unless there is a compelling operational reason to close it. Although entire lines that could close for lowish usage could be looked at whether they really are providing value or not.

As to housing, perhaps some should be built or not.

Yes, build it. The UK market is so wacked right now that any housing is an economic benefit to the country.

Reston should probably get a New Town built around it to make it less utterly useless too. But I wouldn't make it to do with station closure.

Reston is a problem because it's going to stuff up the long-distance stuff with fresh-air-transporters and was built for political purposes. To build a new town would like mean (because forethought is seemingly banned from corridors of power) building up to the boundary and therefore the chance to put Reston platforms on loops or even 4-tracking would be gone forever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reston is a problem because it's going to stuff up the long-distance stuff with fresh-air-transporters and was built for political purposes. To build a new town would like mean (because forethought is seemingly banned from corridors of power) building up to the boundary and therefore the chance to put Reston platforms on loops or even 4-tracking would be gone forever.

I think that depends. While I think Reston was a waste of money, it was decided on on the background of the plan still being to build HS2 in full including the eastern leg (and most importantly in this context the HS2-WCML connection north of Crewe at Golborne), which would have meant the main London to Edinburgh service being from Euston, not Kings Cross, and thus potentially spare paths being available for a useful service for it, such as an hourly all-or-most-stations Newcastle to Edinburgh EMU stopping service.

With such a service it might be an attractive site for a New Town/eco-town, as might one or more of the local stations south of Chathill. Edinburgh is an incredibly expensive place to live, so commuter towns for it are likely to be very viable, and similarly Newcastle has plenty of jobs if you wanted to build Widdrington Keynes or something (!)

But we are where we are, and it's in the way and can't really be closed without politicians being made to look stupid, so it'll remain open.

Carstairs is different on two grounds - one, it's not in the way of anything, and two, it's likely better used than Reston (for which I can't see any stats). Though to be fair even Reston is just a new build Cheddington, which itself does get in the way a bit.

 

[zwk500]

I think that depends. While I think Reston was a waste of money, it was decided on on the background of the plan still being to build HS2 in full including the eastern leg (and most importantly in this context the HS2-WCML connection north of Crewe at Golborne), which would have meant the main London to Edinburgh service being from Euston, not Kings Cross, and thus potentially spare paths being available for a useful service for it, such as an hourly all-or-most-stations Newcastle to Edinburgh EMU stopping service.

There will still be TPE, LNER and XC trains from Edinburgh to Newcastle after HS2. And give the butcherinf of HS2 we're seeing, the ECML may retain the primary link status for a while yet.

With such a service it might be an attractive site for a New Town/eco-town, as might one or more of the local stations south of Chathill. Edinburgh is an incredibly expensive place to live, so commuter towns for it are likely to be very viable, and similarly Newcastle has plenty of jobs if you wanted to build Widdrington Keynes or something (!)

Totally agree that if you took the LNERs off and built some houses in Northumberland you could have some very useful services

But we are where we are, and it's in the way and can't really be closed without politicians being made to look stupid, so it'll remain open.

On the grounds that the SNP currently are doing a fine job of making themselves look extremely stupid, can we not just sneak in and demolish it again?

Carstairs is different on two grounds - one, it's not in the way of anything, and two, it's likely better used than Reston (for which I can't see any stats). Though to be fair even Reston is just a new build Cheddington, which itself does get in the way a bit.

Has Reston even opened yet? Cheddington doesn't really get in the way that much, given how the paths fall out at Tring. Ledburn lets the semi-fasts out to avoid boggler-boggler trains causing too many issues.

 

[Wynd]

The best way to improve the situation is to develop the attractiveness of rail travel, of which there is work going on at present, and to improve things like active travel links to the station to develop uptake.

If the station is low on numbers, the first principle is to ask, how do we get the numbers up?

Not, what excuses can we come up with to diminish access to low carbon travel options.

In terms of building some housing in Carstairs, that has zero impact on the hosing market in Cambridge, for example.

Carstairs would be least of the problems with a stopper on that route. The freight is looped enough as it is, without a train stopping at Beattock and Lockerbie chucked into the mix.

The solution to that, is, drumroll........ more line capacity! Either via new track sections, or other means.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will still be TPE, LNER and XC trains from Edinburgh to Newcastle after HS2. And give the butcherinf of HS2 we're seeing, the ECML may retain the primary link status for a while yet.

With things as they are I can't see the LNER service changing, but if HS2 had gone ahead in full then I reckon they'd only have retained 1tph with more stops, which would probably make pathing an hourly all stations stopper EMU just behind it a bit easier.

On the grounds that the SNP currently are doing a fine job of making themselves look extremely stupid, can we not just sneak in and demolish it again?

Has Reston even opened yet? Cheddington doesn't really get in the way that much, given how the paths fall out at Tring. Ledburn lets the semi-fasts out to avoid boggler-boggler trains causing too many issues.

Yes, it's open. Cheddington interestingly has had a service increase with the new timetable, from 1tph to 2tph, though that's probably just to keep the stopping services precisely half hourly. I doubt the usage has increased by even as much as an additional person, dog and bicycle. An eco-town centring on that would be an interesting idea (there is a Cheddington village but it's a bit of a way away and I bet most drive one of their Range Rovers or Jags to Tring for the faster service and because boarding at the origin is more civilised) and would certainly sell, but it could be green belt so not allowed.

 

[Wynd]

On the grounds that the SNP currently are doing a fine job of making themselves look extremely stupid, can we not just sneak in and demolish it again?

In terms of infrastructure problems, they are in very good company.

HS2...now not going to Central London.
Crossrail, badly late and what, £5B or some 20% over budget?
EWR, no electrification.
2nd Aircraft Carrier now being gutted out for parts...

It seems that infrastructure, big ticket engineering items, are challenging.

And that before we get on to 10 years of stagnant wages, billions upon billions stolen from the public purse by PPE scandals, Brexit.

The Torys are definitely winning out in terms of spectacular failures.

 

[zwk500]

The best way to improve the situation is to develop the attractiveness of rail travel, of which there is work going on at present, and to improve things like active travel links to the station to develop uptake
If the station is low on numbers, the first principle is to ask, how do we get the numbers up?

No, the first question to ask is whether or not this station can be made to add more value to the railway than removing it would add. Once you have decided to keep it, *then* you focus on getting numbers up.

The railway cannot cater to everybody, and the mindset that every single hamlet deserves its own station is a victoriana fantasy that needs to be left in the pre-beeching era where it belongs.

Not, what excuses can we come up with to diminish access to low carbon travel options.

It's not about excuses, it's about maximising value. E.g., would closing the station allow an additional Glasgow/Edinburgh-London to run per hour, saving a flight.

In terms of building some housing in Carstairs, that has zero impact on the hosing market in Cambridge, for example.

Unfortunately, that's no longer quite true because the UK housing market is so absolutely f***ed. The effect of Carstairs development on Cambridge would be negligible, but if it unlocks a chain of movements that frees up housing in Cambridge (not impossible) it would have some impact.

 

[Wynd]

No, the first question to ask is whether or not this station can be made to add more value to the railway than removing it would add. Once you have decided to keep it, *then* you focus on getting numbers up.

The railway cannot cater to everybody, and the mindset that every single hamlet deserves its own station is a victoriana fantasy that needs to be left in the pre-beeching era where it belongs.

It's not about excuses, it's about maximising value. E.g., would closing the station allow an additional Glasgow/Edinburgh-London to run per hour, saving a flight.

Unfortunately, that's no longer quite true because the UK housing market is so absolutely f***ed. The effect of Carstairs development on Cambridge would be negligible, but if it unlocks a chain of movements that frees up housing in Cambridge (not impossible) it would have some impact.

I disagree. If you have a public asset that you are already spending money on, it is prudent to ensure you are getting the most value from that asset. Have you captured as much of the local travel market as possible? If no, then why, and how to increase uptake.

I can assure you, the Scottish housing market has a very limited, if not utterly negligible impact upon, the market for housing in the South East of England.

I'm not sure how much you understand of UK housing markets, but the Scottish one is among one of the most affordable going owing, in part, to the construction of 120k plus social houses over the last few years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure how much you understand of UK housing markets, but the Scottish one is among one of the most affordable going owing, in part, to the construction of 120k plus social housing over the last few years.

With one big exception - Edinburgh - which almost has London house prices but without the London wages.

Thus, a dormitory town for Edinburgh (specifically) has a good chance of doing well.

 

[Wynd]

With one big exception - Edinburgh - which almost has London house prices but without the London wages.

Thus, a dormitory town for Edinburgh (specifically) has a good chance of doing well.

A city with 500k people, and a very expensive Freehold market within parts of the city centre. Go out a bit and it changes. A 3 bed ex council house can be had for 200k if one is prepared to travel.

Unlike London, where 10million odd folk have to compete for housing that is often Leasehold, even an hour out of the city centre.

 

[zwk500]

I disagree. If you have a public asset that you are already spending money on, it is prudent to ensure you are getting the most value from that asset. Have you captured as much of the local travel market as possible? If no, then why, and how to increase uptake.

And if the maximum value you can achieve from the asset is less than the value you would release in other assets by closing it, why invest?

I can assure you, the Scottish housing market has a very limited, if not utterly negligible impact upon, the market for housing in the South East of England.

I'm not sure how much you understand of UK housing markets, but the Scottish one is among one of the most affordable going owing, in part, to the construction of 120k plus social houses over the last few years.

Don't let my location tag fool you - I've lived in England for all but this year of my life. I have a cousin currently living in Edinburgh (although he's studying for his PhD so slightly different) and have formerly owned a flat in MK. I am currently looking at my options in Bristol where I will be living from this summer, and have friends who work in the DCHLG Civil service, finance and business industries and who are very attuned to what is happening in the UK housing market.
I don't doubt that the direct impact of a 10K development in Scotland would be negligible, but do not underestimate just how badly the UK housing market is screwed against first time buyers at the moment, and any housing is beneficial to that at the moment. Housing in Carstairs allows people to move out of Glasgow and Edinburgh, so there's less pressure on housing in those cities, and so there's a slow shuffle of people around as jobs in Edinburgh and Glasgow are now slightly more attractive than they were.

To make a meaningful difference you'd need enough houses to make Glasgow and Edinburgh into a single conurbation, of course, but turning Carstairs Junction in to a town of 10K would be a good start.

 

[Wynd]

And if the maximum value you can achieve from the asset is less than the value you would release in other assets by closing it, why invest?

Don't let my location tag fool you - I've lived in England for all but this year of my life. I have a cousin currently living in Edinburgh (although he's studying for his PhD so slightly different) and have formerly owned a flat in MK. I am currently looking at my options in Bristol where I will be living from this summer, and have friends who work in the DCHLG Civil service, finance and business industries and who are very attuned to what is happening in the UK housing market.
I don't doubt that the direct impact of a 10K development in Scotland would be negligible, but do not underestimate just how badly the UK housing market is screwed against first time buyers at the moment, and any housing is beneficial to that at the moment. Housing in Carstairs allows people to move out of Glasgow and Edinburgh, so there's less pressure on housing in those cities, and so there's a slow shuffle of people around as jobs in Edinburgh and Glasgow are now slightly more attractive than they were.

To make a meaningful difference you'd need enough houses to make Glasgow and Edinburgh into a single conurbation, of course, but turning Carstairs Junction in to a town of 10K would be a good start.

The short answer to the first part is baceuse value can be delivered beyond just the transport budget, and we as a nation are pretty bad at pricing that. Getting people out of cars does impact the health budget, but the links are not made within the spending and finance department.

There are major problems in the Uk housing market, but much of it is down to restricted supply, houses being held as assets and in trusts etc. Scrapping Leasehold would maker a huge difference. Building more houses would also help, considerably.

 

[Meerkat]

Why? It's not in the way, nor does it have huge costs coming that aren't already being spent?

Fair enough

If you just closed it "just because", I reckon you'd want to close about 20% of stations across the UK in similar "lowish usage but not really in the way" situations, including a few entire lines.

Well now you mention it........for a start surely the Barnstaple line would be better if they binned the joke stations and built around the others.
PS - Green Belt can be changed

But I wouldn't make it to do with station closure.

I would, as leverage against the NIMBYs pulling up the drawbridge but still demanding a nice train service.

 

[zwk500]

I would, as leverage against the NIMBYs pulling up the drawbridge but still demanding a nice train service.

NIMBY's moan about a train service but drive everywhere anyway.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Pre Covid Carstairs was used by around 80k passengers per year. Not enormous but certainly more than many other stations.

Indeed, Carstairs showed tremendous growth post 2010-11, when entries and exits were around 11,000 per year - to hit nearly 96,000 in 2016 - 17.

Unless there was some split ticketing or short faring going on? It did weaken to 61,000 2019-20.

It has, however, struggled most spectacularly to recover from Covid, at least in 2021-22. Covid year was just 4,100, and last year it rose to a fraction under just 7,000 - very much of a shadow of the performance in the mid-teen years.

 

[Meerkat]

NIMBY's moan about a train service but drive everywhere anyway.

Partly true, but you also get commuters who move out to a more rural area to get a bigger house. They want the train service, they don't want the size of place that would actually justify it.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Pre 2015 when I had business meetings to attend in Glasgow, Carstairs would have been the nearest and most cost-effective station from where I live in the central Borders, except the service was so poor and irregular. Instead I'd drive the 50 miles to Carluke and get the train from there. Post 2015 I could do the whole trip by train using the Borders railway. Carstairs will still be useful for the western borders, eg Peebles, because it's not worth trying to drive into Edinburgh or anywhere near the A720 in the morning.

Post covid these meetings all seem to be online...

 

[jayah]

Why? It's not in the way, nor does it have huge costs coming that aren't already being spent?

If you just closed it "just because", I reckon you'd want to close about 20% of stations across the UK in similar "lowish usage but not really in the way" situations, including a few entire lines.

As to housing, perhaps some should be built or not. Reston should probably get a New Town built around it to make it less utterly useless too. But I wouldn't make it to do with station closure.

There are six train pairs per day operating just to provide Carstairs with a service.

Opinions seem to vary on whether £164m is being spent on freight loops or the station, but clearly spending anything like that sum supporting 40k return trips a year is crazy. Even spending £2m a year at £50 per Off Peak Return to run the trains, makes no sense.

Carstairs is very different to a marginal station on an existing line that merits a service whether the extra station exists or not.

 

[jayah]

Although that is exactly the situation we had in Scotland at Breich!

Which of course is the wrong policy!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are six train pairs per day operating just to provide Carstairs with a service.

Debatable given that they serve other stations too as part of their service.

 

[Put Kettle On]

There are six train pairs per day operating just to provide Carstairs with a service.

Opinions seem to vary on whether £164m is being spent on freight loops or the station, but clearly spending anything like that sum supporting 40k return trips a year is crazy. Even spending £2m a year at £50 per Off Peak Return to run the trains, makes no sense.

The £164 million is being spent on renewing every single piece of track, points, realignment, speed enhancements, new signalling, overhead wiring, including stanchions / gantries.
The already existing station has had work done, including new copes ( the concrete edging stones ) throughout & is being resurfaced, this work due ( at least in part ) due to new track alignment.
Rather sensible, when seen against the grand scheme, the station & all track etc shall require very little work once the project is complete.

The station already exists, on an existing line, that merits a service to the local area, & as already explained in previous posts had a reasonable usage prior to the pandemic.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The £164 million is being spent on renewing every single piece of track, points, realignment, speed enhancements, new signalling, overhead wiring, including stanchions / gantries.
The already existing station has had work done, including new copes ( the concrete edging stones ) throughout & is being resurfaced, this work due ( at least in part ) due to new track alignment.
Rather sensible, when seen against the grand scheme, the station & all track etc shall require very little work once the project is complete.

The station already exists, on an existing line, that merits a service to the local area, & as already explained in previous posts had a reasonable usage prior to the pandemic.

The £164 million delivers huge benefits through significantly increased speeds over the south to east and east to west curves, each probably worth circa 2 mins in running time as well as a the increased main line speeds and a longer freight loop.

 

[mcmad]

The project was primarily to replace the life expired track. Early on it was obvious that the existing layout was unsuited to current and future operations hence the new layout. The works at the station are purely to align the platforms with the new track. It's being funded entirely out of the renewals budget with no enhancements funding at all.

 

[The Planner]

The project was primarily to replace the life expired track. Early on it was obvious that the existing layout was unsuited to current and future operations hence the new layout. The works at the station are purely to align the platforms with the new track. It's being funded entirely out of the renewals budget with no enhancements funding at all.

Someone got lucky with their renewals budget then, no chance of that happening again. Where were the efficiencies etc to sell thaf?

 

[Falcon1200]

There are six train pairs per day operating just to provide Carstairs with a service.

Debatable given that they serve other stations too as part of their service.

Indeed, providing Motherwell (and therefore other easily connectable locations in Lanarkshire such as Hamilton) is a far greater justification for these trains than Carstairs, especially in the almost total abdication from the route of firstly the East Coast operator (some years ago now) and now Cross Country (post Covid). They also, for some parts of West Scotland, provide an easier route to and from Edinburgh thanks to the many connections available at Glasgow Central.

 

[jayah]

Debatable given that they serve other stations too as part of their service.

There is no reason for those services to exist, other than Carstairs and to link Motherwell and Edinburgh, and there are better ways to do that without those trains existing.

So this is completely different to a marginal station on a route that merits having trains in its own right.

 

[jayah]

The £164 million is being spent on renewing every single piece of track, points, realignment, speed enhancements, new signalling, overhead wiring, including stanchions / gantries.
The already existing station has had work done, including new copes ( the concrete edging stones ) throughout & is being resurfaced, this work due ( at least in part ) due to new track alignment.
Rather sensible, when seen against the grand scheme, the station & all track etc shall require very little work once the project is complete.

The station already exists, on an existing line, that merits a service to the local area, & as already explained in previous posts had a reasonable usage prior to the pandemic.

The size of settlement doesn't justify a station, it only exists by an accident of history.

The footfall does not justify supporting 12 train services a day. The services calling there, which only exist to serve Carstairs and provide a better link between Motherwell and Edinburgh do not remotely offer value for money - as noted at the order of £50 per day return.

The vast majority of the population in such a rural location will have cars and can just as easily access the railway at Lanark.

 

[Put Kettle On]

Accidents of history, I suppose we could blame all manner of things on that terminology.

The trains already pass Carstairs, running services as already described & had already been providing Carstairs with a service. In fact, a few years ago, the station was provided with a new car park, to give additional parking.

Rather a grand assumption that the vast majority will have cars & can easily access Lanark.

Lanark, as stated many times previously, does not provide an easy route by rail to Edinburgh, Carstairs, by its accident of history does provide this.

If it is to be believed, there are aspirations to encourage people out of cars, & to make more use of public transport. Edinburgh is heading towards making car use more awkward.

You cannot achieve the former, by closing stations which provide a public transport route for a large area & force the use of a station which does not provide a great option for rail travel to Scotlands capital city.

 

[Brubulus]

I'd have rebuilt Carstairs south of the junction to allow it to have a service to both Glasgow and Edinburgh without requiring additional works. It would also make it a useful splitting point for HS2 and the Sleeper.