Should Conwy Valley line be closed? Or is there an affordable way to keep it open?

[Bletchleyite]

Rather than resorting to bus transportation, would it not be a more long term solution to build more bridges through the embankment to enable the water to wash through. If needs be, perhaps a DLR type viaduct, assemmbled from pre-fabricated sections might be the answer.

Moving away from the closure idea, I have wondered that. You can't stop that volume of water, but you can provide it a way through.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Moving away from the closure idea, I have wondered that. You can't stop that volume of water, but you can provide it a way through.

Akin to the new and extensive flood channel at Cowley Bridge Junction , Exeter.

However this protects the GWR main line , as well as the Barnstaple Line. More for the former one assumes......

 

[yorksrob]

Moving away from the closure idea, I have wondered that. You can't stop that volume of water, but you can provide it a way through.

Indeed. Whilst there's no point throwing good money after bad, this should be achieved by futureproofing, rather than closure.

 

[AndrewE]

Or to look at it another way, This sort of problem is only going to become more common across the network as the climate becomes more erratic. Given that this line is a little quieter than most, it seems an ideal opportunity for NR to develop and test a more permanent fix that can be used to replace vulnerable Victorian embankments elsewhere.

I agree, some forward thinking would be nice...
I would consider replacing strategically-chosen lengths of embankments with nice big concrete piers on deep foundations, with standard beams used for the decks, as you suggest.
It's not as though the embankments are very high, so should not be too difficult... However the landowners won't be very happy about losing the free flood wall provided by the railway!

 

[yorksrob]

I agree, some forward thinking would be nice...
I would consider replacing strategically-chosen lengths of embankments with nice big concrete piers on deep foundations, with standard beams used for the decks, as you suggest.
It's not as though the embankments are very high, so should not be too difficult... However the landowners won't be very happy about losing the free flood wall provided by the railway!

As a farmer, its probably better than having a 150 washed up in your sheep field !

 

[Bald Rick]

I agree, some forward thinking would be nice...
I would consider replacing strategically-chosen lengths of embankments with nice big concrete piers on deep foundations, with standard beams used for the decks, as you suggest.
It's not as though the embankments are very high, so should not be too difficult... However the landowners won't be very happy about losing the free flood wall provided by the railway!

And that would be scores, if not hundreds of millions. Is that really the best use of cash for a transport solution for people who need to get to/from the area?

 

[gazthomas]

As much as it pains me to say, a sustainable solution to stop this annual cycle of damage needs to be found and if not then maybe closure might be the only option. The A470 is much improved these days

 

[Belperpete]

I would consider replacing strategically-chosen lengths of embankments with nice big concrete piers on deep foundations, with standard beams used for the decks, as you suggest.

And having paid for all that expensive infrastructure, you would still only have an irregular service every two hours or so. Whereas for the cost of a few new Traws Cymru buses, you could have a service that would be faster, more regular, cheaper and more convenient. No contest in my mind.

Unfortunately the Conwy Valley line is now ridiculously slow compared to the road that runs parallel to it. In addition, the stations are generally inconveniently sited on the outskirts of the towns and villages it serves. In Llandudno, for example, it is quite a walk from the shopping areas to the station, whereas the bus stops right outside. As a means of transport, the Conwy Valley line really doesn't have much going for it. To get from Porthmadog to Llandudno, for example, it is often quicker to go via Bangor! When the X1 service was running, there really was no contest, as evidenced by the number of people who deserted the train for the bus (myself included).

 

[AndrewE]

And that would be scores, if not hundreds of millions. Is that really the best use of cash for a transport solution for people who need to get to/from the area?

Maybe a score of millions, maybe not. And the transport isn't just (or even mainly) for people to get to/from the area, it is part of the national network with an important local function.

And having paid for all that expensive infrastructure, you would still only have an irregular service every two hours or so. Whereas for the cost of a few new Traws Cymru buses, you could have a service that would be faster, more regular, cheaper and more convenient. No contest in my mind.

The line could be improved without too much difficulty, especially as it would be closed during the flood alleviation works. Given passing loops in a few more places and a willingness to invest in rolling stock and traincrew (instead of pinching them for use elsewhere at the first opportunity) it would be much more heavily used.

Unfortunately the Conwy Valley line is now ridiculously slow compared to the road that runs parallel to it.

an upgrade would help address that

In addition, the stations are generally inconveniently sited on the outskirts of the towns and villages it serves. In Llandudno, for example, it is quite a walk from the shopping areas to the station, whereas the bus stops right outside.

True to some extent, but it's not as bad in Llandudno as you make out

As a means of transport, the Conwy Valley line really doesn't have much going for it. To get from Porthmadog to Llandudno, for example, it is often quicker to go via Bangor!

What a surprise! The first half of that journey is by a preserved narrow-gauge steam railway.
Blaenau to Llandudno Jct is where the line runs, and that bit of the national network should be protected on principle.

 

[yorksrob]

And that would be scores, if not hundreds of millions. Is that really the best use of cash for a transport solution for people who need to get to/from the area?

Yes. Particularly if the opportunity can be taken to develop a pre-fabricated solution that can be used elsewhere.

 

[yorksrob]

And having paid for all that expensive infrastructure, you would still only have an irregular service every two hours or so. Whereas for the cost of a few new Traws Cymru buses, you could have a service that would be faster, more regular, cheaper and more convenient. No contest in my mind.

Unfortunately the Conwy Valley line is now ridiculously slow compared to the road that runs parallel to it. In addition, the stations are generally inconveniently sited on the outskirts of the towns and villages it serves. In Llandudno, for example, it is quite a walk from the shopping areas to the station, whereas the bus stops right outside. As a means of transport, the Conwy Valley line really doesn't have much going for it. To get from Porthmadog to Llandudno, for example, it is often quicker to go via Bangor! When the X1 service was running, there really was no contest, as evidenced by the number of people who deserted the train for the bus (myself included).

Well, if you want to leave yourself in the hands of a here today, gone tomorrow bus bandit, that's your look out.

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe a score of millions, maybe not. And the transport isn't just (or even mainly) for people to get to/from the area, it is part of the national network with an important local function.

I’m sorry, surely all transport is for people to get to or from a given place or area. And for this line, being a dead end, it can only be for people to get to or from the area along it. What other end function can it be? Yes it is part of the national network, and yes it has an important local function, and that function is to transport people to, or from, the areas it serves.

Yes. Particularly if the opportunity can be taken to develop a pre-fabricated solution that can be used elsewhere.

If you are saying that spending potentially hundreds of millions on this line, when a decent, better (and much cheaper) alternative exists, is a better use of cash than, say, electrifying from Crewe to Llandudno, or reopening the Caernarfon line, or doubling the service to Holyhead (and having plenty of change in this case), then we will have to disagree.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well, if you want to leave yourself in the hands of a here today, gone tomorrow bus bandit, that's your look out.

But it doesn’t need to be like that. TfW could contract for a bus service in the same way they contract for a rail service - service spec, service standard, integrated ticketing, etc.

I’d be willing to bet that if you surveyed the people who use the line and line in the area, a big majority would much rather have an hourly coach service, with integrated rail ticketing, on the route than a 3 hourly train. It would be quicker, more accessible, more reliable (much), better for the environment (much), and also far far cheaper for taxpayers. What’s not to like?

 

[yorksrob]

I’m sorry, surely all transport is for people to get to or from a given place or area. And for this line, being a dead end, it can only be for people to get to or from the area along it. What other end function can it be? Yes it is part of the national network, and yes it has an important local function, and that function is to transport people to, or from, the areas it serves.



If you are saying that spending potentially hundreds of millions on this line, when a decent, better (and much cheaper) alternative exists, is a better use of cash than, say, electrifying from Crewe to Llandudno, or reopening the Caernarfon line, or doubling the service to Holyhead (and having plenty of change in this case), then we will have to disagree.

When would you rather develop an off the peg solution for regularly washed out embankments. On a comparatively quiet line, or wait until a main line suffers the same problems ?

 

[yorksrob]

But it doesn’t need to be like that. TfW could contract for a bus service in the same way they contract for a rail service - service spec, service standard, integrated ticketing, etc.

I’d be willing to bet that if you surveyed the people who use the line and line in the area, a big majority would much rather have an hourly coach service, with integrated rail ticketing, on the route than a 3 hourly train. It would be quicker, more accessible, more reliable (much), better for the environment (much), and also far far cheaper for taxpayers. What’s not to like?

In answer to your question, it's a bus.

Furthermore, isn't the whole basis of bus deregulation that a private company can swan in and run the service if it thinks there's brass to be made, and drop it like a hot potatoe as soon as the going gets tough ?

I know we'd rather do without bus deregulation, but we have to deal with the world as it is, not how we'd like it to be.

 

[Greybeard33]

But it doesn’t need to be like that. TfW could contract for a bus service in the same way they contract for a rail service - service spec, service standard, integrated ticketing, etc.

I’d be willing to bet that if you surveyed the people who use the line and line in the area, a big majority would much rather have an hourly coach service, with integrated rail ticketing, on the route than a 3 hourly train. It would be quicker, more accessible, more reliable (much), better for the environment (much), and also far far cheaper for taxpayers. What’s not to like?

Barlaston and Wedgwood stations closed many years ago. Yet you can still buy through tickets to those places from any National Rail station. WMT contracts a commercial bus operator to accept tickets on a connecting service between Stoke and Stone, as a requirement of its franchise agreement. The bus schedule is included in journey planner itineraries.

So it can be done.

 

[yorksrob]

Barlaston and Wedgwood stations closed many years ago. Yet you can still buy through tickets to those places from any National Rail station. WMT contracts a commercial bus operator to accept tickets on a connecting service between Stoke and Stone, as a requirement of its franchise agreement. The bus schedule is included in journey planner itineraries.

So it can be done.

Those aren't 'closed' stations though.

Plus, is it an attractive service to potential rail passengers ?

 

[Bald Rick]

In answer to your question, it's a bus.

Furthermore, isn't the whole basis of bus deregulation that a private company can swan in and run the service if it thinks there's brass to be made, and drop it like a hot potatoe as soon as the going gets tough ?

I know we'd rather do without bus deregulation, but we have to deal with the world as it is, not how we'd like it to be.

But there isn’t brass to be made, otherwise there would already be an hourly service down the valley. And, if the service was specified by TfW in the Wales franchise, it would be absolutely irrelevant what other bus operators do. This is the point - it is entirely in the hands of TfW.

 

[yorksrob]

But there isn’t brass to be made, otherwise there would already be an hourly service down the valley. And, if the service was specified by TfW in the Wales franchise, it would be absolutely irrelevant what other bus operators do. This is the point - it is entirely in the hands of TfW.

I'm not sure I'd go for it.

Who'd want to be the first Council to sacrifice its railway in forty years.

Sure sign of being dead-end of nowhere surely?

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not sure I'd go for it.

Who'd want to be the first Council to sacrifice its railway in forty years.

Sure sign of being dead-end of nowhere surely?

You would if you were promised half the savings, to spend on schools, social care, healthcare, etc. Local politics in action.

‘The railway’ is very important to me, but there comes a time when you realise that you have to let go.

 

[yorksrob]

You would if you were promised half the savings, to spend on schools, social care, healthcare, etc. Local politics in action.

‘The railway’ is very important to me, but there comes a time when you realise that you have to let go.

We've had the promises that "there's a replacement bus and it's equivalent to the railway that's just been torn up" before.

Do people believe it.

Also, do people genuinely believe that the money to run their railway in the area, will go to local schools, social care etc, or will the saving just be lost in the next round of Council grant cuts.

I wonder ?

 

[edwin_m]

We would have to get rid of bus deregulation and have a completely different attitude to funding buses to achieve something like this. While it might lead to a railway closure here, there are other places where railways would benefit if buses were re-shaped to feed rather than compete.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We would have to get rid of bus deregulation and have a completely different attitude to funding buses to achieve something like this. While it might lead to a railway closure here, there are other places where railways would benefit if buses were re-shaped to feed rather than compete.

Yes, this. I would support closure to be replaced with a Swiss style Postauto on a regular interval timetable. Not, as would happen, a single rotting old Dennis Dart being driven up and down in a reckless manner, which is what it would be (and is what the X1 was).

 

[yorksrob]

I still wouldn't support closure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still wouldn't support closure.

Even given that the damage this time is very bad and will involve a near rebuild of some parts? I drove down the main road today and for instance the end of Dolwyddelan platform appears to have collapsed.

It'll happen again in 2-3 years...

 

[yorksrob]

Even given that the damage this time is very bad and will involve a near rebuild of some parts? I drove down the main road today and for instance the end of Dolwyddelan platform appears to have collapsed.

It'll happen again in 2-3 years...

I'd rather a long term solution was found.

If we go back to closing lines whenever there's a major infrastructure cost, I fear another sort of flood gate opening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd rather a long term solution was found.

If we go back to closing lines whenever there's a major infrastructure cost, I fear another sort of flood gate opening.

The question is is there one? Short of rebuilding it higher up so it's not on the flood plain...

 

[AndrewE]

It's not the height that's the issue, but the fact that the embankments dam the water flows. Cowley Bridge Jct rail is still at the same height, and if the Conwy valley line was on stilts instead of embankments in strategic places then flood water would just pass underneath.
Moving it to the side and nearer some villages (if not higher up ) might not be a bad idea though.
The Cowley Bridge Jct scheme does seem to have been a well-though out job, integrated with other interested parties.

 

[Kite159]

It's not the height that's the issue, but the fact that the embankments dam the water flows. Cowley Bridge Jct rail is still at the same height, and if the Conwy valley line was on stilts in strategic places then flood water would just pass underneath.
Moving it to the side and nearer some villages (if not higher up ) might not be a bad idea though.
The Cowley Bridge Jct scheme does seem to be a well-though out job though, integrated with other interested parties.

And how much would that cost?

 

[AndrewE]

And how much would that cost?

It wasn't me who suggested moving the line... but
How much is a national network worth? And how much has been spent to buy the votes of the DUP? (and in contingency planning for something that any rational country would not be allowing to happen?)