Should Every Station (& every Platform) Have a Ticket Machine?

[Paul Jones 88]

Some stations are located in very isolated places so those machines could be liable to be opened up by thieves.

 

[robbeech]

Some stations are located in very isolated places so those machines could be liable to be opened up by thieves.

What would they gain? Most ticket machines we see do not accept cash anyway. Vandalism, perhaps.

 

[AM9]

When you can buy in advance and either on a smart phone that the majority of people have (and a trend that will only increase), yes. And in some places, you aren't required to buy a ticket before you board.

As usual, there the calls from those that use their smartphones extensively for everyone to be forced to do likewise. Smartphone use is concentrated on those under 50 and to a lesser extent those still at work. However, in the over 65 group*, that figure drops to 40% which means that most of travellers in that group aren't making regular journeys on season tickets etc., so measures taken for the convenience of the many could make travel for a sizeable minority much more difficult if not impossible.
* Although I am now in my '70s, I use my phone for many travel related functions - (I'm actually typing this post on it), but that is far from typical in my age group.

 

[Crossover]

Best one for most badly sited TVM I've come across is at Marsden where the single Northern touchscreen TVM is located on platform 3, the platform serving the loop, which I believe only sees no booked passenger use anymore. It's a good couple minute walk from the stairs down to Platforms 1 or 2 to that entrance (and the TVM is hidden away so you can barely see it if standing on the other 2 platforms.

Yes, p3 doesn't currently see a service, somewhat stupidly given it is the only step-free platform.

Mirfield is also a bit of a daft setup, with the machine on p3, but if you need to go in the direction of Leeds/Wakefield, it is quite the trek to use the machine then go back again. It is stations like this that should really have machines on each platform, given the gap between them is akin to separate stations (distance wise it can't be much different to the two Wigan stations!)

 

[Horizon22]

As usual, there the calls from those that use their smartphones extensively for everyone to be forced to do likewise. Smartphone use is concentrated on those under 50 and to a lesser extent those still at work. However, in the over 65 group*, that figure drops to 40% which means that most of travellers in that group aren't making regular journeys on season tickets etc., so measures taken for the convenience of the many could make travel for a sizeable minority much more difficult if not impossible.
* Although I am now in my '70s, I use my phone for many travel related functions - (I'm actually typing this post on it), but that is far from typical in my age group.

That’s why as I said, it’s a trend likely to only go up. Of course there are some that do not have access (which is why I haven’t suggested removing any), but there are other options that are not a smart phone (on-board, any ticket office, on a desktop etc.) so I don’t think the railway will be going the other way either.

 

[Spartacus]

What would they gain? Most ticket machines we see do not accept cash anyway. Vandalism, perhaps.

Scrap metal, people have stolen for far less metal; road signs, manhole covers..... If there's something left unattended you can guarantee someone'll steal it.

Mirfield is also a bit of a daft setup, with the machine on p3, but if you need to go in the direction of Leeds/Wakefield, it is quite the trek to use the machine then go back again. It is stations like this that should really have machines on each platform, given the gap between them is akin to separate stations (distance wise it can't be much different to the two Wigan stations!)

Isn't it in the shelter, which is set back from the platform? My friends and I had been using Mirfield for ages before we realised it even had a ticket machine. Off on platform 3, usually at the front, then straight down the steps, not passing the shelter with machine inside, or if we passed it not realising the machine was inside, then returning from platform 1.

 

[AM9]

That’s why as I said, it’s a trend likely to only go up. Of course there are some that do not have access (which is why I haven’t suggested removing any), but there are other options that are not a smart phone (on-board, any ticket office, on a desktop etc.) so I don’t think the railway will be going the other way either.

It will be quite a few years before this sizeable minority can be ignored so it looks like the on-board option is the only one that is really acceptable, (many people in the over 65 group don't themselves have access or ability to use even a desktop, and except where there is a manned ticket office/working TVM at a relatively near alternative station, may not be able to get to another station for the sole [urpose of buying a ticket) so they would effectively be barred from travelling legally unless they don't need to use any DOO on trains at the start of their journeys.

 

[Crossover]

Isn't it in the shelter, which is set back from the platform? My friends and I had been using Mirfield for ages before we realised it even had a ticket machine. Off on platform 3, usually at the front, then straight down the steps, not passing the shelter with machine inside, or if we passed it not realising the machine was inside, then returning from platform 1.

It is, yes. The last time I was there, it had a very broken screen and was out of service!

 

[robbeech]

My friends and I had been using Mirfield for ages before we realised it even had a ticket machine.

This sort of comment proves the ongoing point we regularly try to make about consistency. It’s possible you always have tickets purchased before or use e-tickets but there are many locations where the ticket machine is hidden away with no real signage and people can travel for months without knowing about it and get along just fine because they buy it from the guard. Until one day they suddenly have anything from a £20 penalty fare to a failed teaching career.

 

[DJ_K666]

The other week-just after travel restrictions had been eased in Wales-the ticket machine at Cwmbran only issued me the ticket for the outward half of my journey.Fortunately the ticket office was open and the lady on duty got me to fill in a form and issued replacement tickets.
The machine in question has a habit of doing this I was informed.
Ticket machines are great if they actually work....and try convincing a conductor or station staff why you don’t have a return tickert..but I think ones that accept cash are non starters in some places.They wouldn’t last two minutes in Cwmbran!
And they have to be easy to use.The new ones at Cwmbran are so badly designed you have to bend over to be able to read the card key pad!Wasn’t the case with old ones.

Ah Cwmbran. What a lovely 80s windswept hell hole of a station. Or at least, it was when I last used it. The ticket window was some random hatch in the end of the building.

 

[Kryten2340]

I don't know what it's like now but several years ago there never used to be any ticket machines at Metrocentre Station in Gateshead if you were arriving from the Coach Park side. You would either have to board and hope the guard came along to sell tickets or cross the bridge and go into the MetroCentre itself to buy your ticket and head back. That's quite a trek.

 

[billio]

I don't know how much the Northern ticket machines cost but it must be tens of thousands of pounds - the huge screen, computer, network connection, installation, maintenance, any staion building alterations, signage etc- . I just wonder how many tickets you need to sell before the costs are covered.

 

[alistairlees]

I don't know how much the Northern ticket machines cost but it must be tens of thousands of pounds - the huge screen, computer, network connection, installation, maintenance, any staion building alterations, signage etc- . I just wonder how many tickets you need to sell before the costs are covered.

Close. Plus large annual costs of course. I can’t see the one on the saltburn-bound platform of Redcar East paying for itself in 100 years (I’ve never even seen it being used).

 

[Philip]

Perhaps a smarter idea would be to remove TVMs from most stations with ticket offices and reinstall them at stations without ticket offices, saving the cost of new machines and helping to increase ticket office usage again.

 

[AM9]

Perhaps a smarter idea would be to remove TVMs from most stations with ticket offices and reinstall them at stations without ticket offices, saving the cost of new machines and helping to increase ticket office usage again.

That's fine as long as every ticket office is manned throughout train service hours.

 

[Philip]

That's fine as long as every ticket office is manned throughout train service hours.

I'm sure guards would appreciate the chance of a bit of commission at either ends of the day!

 

[Ianno87]

Perhaps a smarter idea would be to remove TVMs from most stations with ticket offices and reinstall them at stations without ticket offices, saving the cost of new machines and helping to increase ticket office usage again.

But annoying passengers at busier staffed stations who now need to join a queue for the ticket office.

 

[Philip]

But annoying passengers at busier staffed stations who now need to join a queue for the ticket office.

Passengers have coped with this arrangement for the past 150 years, so why is this all of a sudden a problem? There is good reason for the advice for passengers to arrive at the station in plenty of time to buy a ticket and board the train.

Ticket machines can be unreliable (yes I know so can ticket office staff) and a fair portion of users end up needing to ask for help at the ticket office, or end up collecting their pre-paid tickets at the office, defeating the purpose of the machine.

 

[Ianno87]

Passengers have coped with this arrangement for the past 150 years, so why is this all of a sudden a problem? There is good reason for the advice for passengers to arrive at the station in plenty of time to buy a ticket and board the train.

Because it's not the 19th century any more, and TVMs serve the majority of passengers faster and more efficiently (especially for collecting pre-booked tickets)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because it's not the 19th century any more.

Though to be fair because it's not the 19th century any more, anyone bothered by a small queue for a ticket or the uncertainty it may cause can avail themselves of a smartphone and avoid the queue entirely (backward looking TOCs like Merseyrail and Southeastern excepted).

 

[kevjs]

Potentially, if you gave everyone a rail smartcard. Stick it on a reader, choose your product, upload it and you're away. No physical ticket to issue and they won't take cash so the units could be quite small.

Given how long it's taken ITSO to get where it is now I'm guessing this is a non-starter, so; they should be on any platform that means passengers don't have to make a there-and-back trip to the wrong platform. And they will need checking for vandalism, even in rural areas.

The ticket vending machines next to a number of bus stops in Nottingham dispense the smart cards so you can buy them and top them up - IIRC these don't take cash either - it's all Chip & PIN. With a bit of planning you could ensure the same machines could dispense local bus tickets in addition to rail tickets making them more attractive at smaller stations with bus stops.

 

[Philip]

Because it's not the 19th century any more, and TVMs serve the majority of passengers faster and more efficiently (especially for collecting pre-booked tickets)

I would dispute that TVMs serve both faster and more efficiently. Yes when everything is working ok and no issues with the person's card or booking, then the TVM is quicker. Any problems however (which happens a lot without exaggeration) and they go straight to the ticket office. Saying "it isn't the 19th century anymore", what exactly do you mean by that?

Though to be fair because it's not the 19th century any more, anyone bothered by a small queue for a ticket or the uncertainty it may cause can avail themselves of a smartphone and avoid the queue entirely (backward looking TOCs like Merseyrail and Southeastern excepted).

Again, why are those TOCs 'backward looking' for not having the smart technology?

 

[Crossover]

This sort of comment proves the ongoing point we regularly try to make about consistency. It’s possible you always have tickets purchased before or use e-tickets but there are many locations where the ticket machine is hidden away with no real signage and people can travel for months without knowing about it and get along just fine because they buy it from the guard. Until one day they suddenly have anything from a £20 penalty fare to a failed teaching career.

Indeed. There are PF signs around as well, though I couldn't tell you where as I have never really looked out for them!

I don't know how much the Northern ticket machines cost but it must be tens of thousands of pounds - the huge screen, computer, network connection, installation, maintenance, any staion building alterations, signage etc- . I just wonder how many tickets you need to sell before the costs are covered.

I would imagine the screen on them is the most expensive element. From experience in IT, the cost of the computer element I would imagine to be minimal

 

[ALEMASTER]

Every station that is part of a penalty fares scheme should have adequate ticket retailing facilities. If the railway is fining people boarding without a ticket, they should be making every effort to make it quick and easy to buy a ticket at the station. To not do so is very poor customer service.

In the past most unstaffed stations had no facilities but adequate and user friendly conductor service on board.

 

[cuccir]

It is the case that if you end up at an unfamiliar station you really have to hunt around for machines. I remember finding myself having to get home from Mansfield station a few years ago after unexpectedly ending up there because my grandmother fell ill while were out and had to be rushed to the hospital... there was no indication when I arrived as to whether or not there were ticket machines at the station, and I had to hunt around to find them. If I wasn't quite so aware of railway law and custom, I wouldn't have serached around in the way that I did.

 

[robbeech]

It is the case that if you end up at an unfamiliar station you really have to hunt around for machines. I remember finding myself having to get home from Mansfield station a few years ago after unexpectedly ending up there because my grandmother fell ill while were out and had to be rushed to the hospital... there was no indication when I arrived as to whether or not there were ticket machines at the station, and I had to hunt around to find them. If I wasn't quite so aware of railway law and custom, I wouldn't have serached around in the way that I did.

If you’re travelling to Nottingham from Mansfield and you use the car park on the up platform there is no penalty fare sign between you and the train. There is no indication that there is a ticket machine (particularly when the ticket office is closed). I have pointed this out to EMR, and reminded them that any penalty fare they issue at the very least in that direction from Mansfield is likely issued unlawfully. Unfortunately (haven’t been for a year, but unlikely to have been fixed) nothing changed and revenue staff still do this. Of course most of the guards just sell a ticket, there’s an argument to suggest this makes the situation worse if they don’t mention that they should buy it before they board. To arrive at Mansfield at that entrance, buy a ticket and get back to the platform will take you at least 7 or 8 minutes, maybe more. Whilst I’m happy to do it myself I don’t consider this acceptable for many people.

 

[david1212]

Because it's not the 19th century any more, and TVMs serve the majority of passengers faster and more efficiently (especially for collecting pre-booked tickets)

OK for collecting pre-booked tickets presuming no issues but this totally disregards the time spent online creating and paying for the tickets.

For even the simplest purchase a booking office clerk ought to always be faster. While as advised elsewhere at least some TVMs can now sell tickets from any station not just the one they are situated the time to enter and add e.g. the three parts of a split ticket will be far longer than asking a booking office clerk for the tickets.

As yet I've not seen any indication of the cost of a TVM but just the vandal & weather resistant frame must be thousands of £££ then there is the touch screen ( I presume now no machine has a keyboard other than for the payment card ). Add on to this ongoing maintenance and the expected life before replacement. I do wonder how much the saving is compared to a member of staff ?

 

[Rail Blues]

Was there not a time where most stations had only one ticket office, no ticket machines and no mobile or internet ticket facilities? People managed then. I would agree with machines on both platforms where level crossings are involved. Also the machines should be on the platform where they would be most frequently used and there should be adequate signage from each station entrance to the machine. No machines should be hiding out of easy sight.

I don't know about 'managed'. It was a pain on the backside. When I used the cross city line regularly, you'd turn up for a train with 20 minutes to spare to find someone making a meal of trying to renew a Railcard with one member of.staff on tickets taking an age to cut out the photo and queue of people seething behind them, leading to plenty of missed trains.

With smart cards and etickets close to becoming the norm, the ticket machine will go the way of the phone box, serving an ever dwindling number of people. I would expect the number to remain static or decline.

 

[Rail Blues]

It will be quite a few years before this sizeable minority can be ignored so it looks like the on-board option is the only one that is really acceptable, (many people in the over 65 group don't themselves have access or ability to use even a desktop, and except where there is a manned ticket office/working TVM at a relatively near alternative station, may not be able to get to another station for the sole [urpose of buying a ticket) so they would effectively be barred from travelling legally unless they don't need to use any DOO on trains at the start of their journeys.

I think you do the over 65s a disservice. A 65 year-old would have been born on 1956 and would have been in their early 40s when home internet became mainstream. I'm guessing that those in the 65 plus bracket who don't have access to a computer or a smartphone are skewed towards the older end of that age bracket. By the nature of things they are dwindling and I can't see a massive investment in ticket machines or offices for something that will cease to be an issue in about 5 to 10 years.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

What would they gain? Most ticket machines we see do not accept cash anyway. Vandalism, perhaps.

But, you can't mandate people buy before they board when they only have the option to use a card tvm.