Should train driving be a graduate profession?

[Fleetmaster]

It's yes and no.

No because train driving isn't yet a degree subject (but certainly could be, like nursing, criminology, transport planning etc).

Yes because degrees generally are a sign you are a smart cookie who will bring value to the business far beyond the minimal proven expectation of diligence and integrity and maybe even industry specific knowledge, into areas such as flexibility, motivation and innovation.

 

[whoosh]

That’s a different problem, though. Firstly that the industry described above evidently hadn’t given the graduate managers enough of a grounding, and perhaps secondly that it had recruited people with the wrong attitude.

The flip side of the coin is that you can have someone who has been doing a job for very many years but simply can’t get to grips with stuff like report-writing or the analytical skills that management requires.

Where this becomes relevant to train driving is the next level up requires people who are good at both knowing/understanding the job *and* the aforementioned other stuff. My observations suggest finding such people proves extremely difficult. Same with the earlier point about DI’s having to fill out paperwork. As I posted elsewhere, having a mix of backgrounds brings the most to the table. That table needs to be well filled with skills if the setup as a whole is going to function effectively.

Driver Managers are difficult to find because they:

Have to deal with higher up management, who struggle to fully understand the role.

Have to deal with internal politics.

Get paid more than a driver in basic salary - but that's it - drivers can earn more with overtime.

Sometimes are on a 37 hour week, whilst drivers are on 35 - I once got a higher hourly rate than my driver manager even though his basic was more, because of this.

Work their hours over five days instead of four.

Be on call to respond to incidents - when there are uncovered driver manager vacancies, this with come around more often.

No longer get a boost to their 'all service' pension.


The job should be something to aspire to, but it isn't, and the amount of people I've seen become driver managers and then go back driving is huge. They can all read and write perfectly well. They could all do the job, it just isn't worth the hassle.


Then there's Trainer at the training school. "We're slowing down on recruitment now, we don't need as many Trainers any more."
Great - job security's good then?!

These roles are more precarious for not much more reward. That's why there may be difficulties finding people to do them.

 

[43096]

Driver Managers are difficult to find because they:

Have to deal with higher up management, who struggle to fully understand the role.

In which case the Driver Managers aren't articulating it properly. There's lots of specialisms in all industries where that might apply - it's up to those involved to explain things in a way that others can understand and relate to.

Have to deal with internal politics.

There's nothing unique in that; there's plenty of roles where that applies.

 

[Ken H]

Driver Managers are difficult to find because they:

Have to deal with higher up management, who struggle to fully understand the role.

Have to deal with internal politics.

Get paid more than a driver in basic salary - but that's it - drivers can earn more with overtime.

Sometimes are on a 37 hour week, whilst drivers are on 35 - I once got a higher hourly rate than my driver manager even though his basic was more, because of this.

Work their hours over five days instead of four.

Be on call to respond to incidents - when there are uncovered driver manager vacancies, this with come around more often.

No longer get a boost to their 'all service' pension.


The job should be something to aspire to, but it isn't, and the amount of people I've seen become driver managers and then go back driving is huge. They can all read and write perfectly well. They could all do the job, it just isn't worth the hassle.


Then there's Trainer at the training school. "We're slowing down on recruitment now, we don't need as many Trainers any more."
Great - job security's good then?!

These roles are more precarious for not much more reward. That's why there may be difficulties finding people to do them.

Line management is a different skillset to driving a train. Why should a good driver be a good train manager.
Same in IT. Not all developers are cut out to line management. I hated it and went to freelance developing instead.

 

[ComUtoR]

The flip side of the coin is that you can have someone who has been doing a job for very many years but simply can’t get to grips with stuff like report-writing or the analytical skills that management requires.

Again, this is a matter of training. There are plenty of options for on the job training and development. Many TOCs have some kind of training school and there Management apprenticeship options too.

I do agree with skill diversity but that already happens in the industry. We have many graduates who drive trains and some go on to different parts of the business. You then have the problem that changing the role from Train Driving to a more career orientated role means that turnover will increase and potentially squeeze out external applicants from the more back office roles.

 

[Bantamzen]

In theory someone who has a record of achievement is providing *evidence* that they should stand a better chance of getting through the training and ultimately meeting the standard.

Achievement doesn't just come from University degrees. Someone who has worked from 16, demonstrated that they can operate successfully with others, follow instructions, learn new practices methods, and generally do a good job should be equally as capable, if not more so if they have moved through the ranks demonstrating these skills.

What someone has a degree in isn’t really what counts, except in certain specialised industries. However it does show certain things.

Frankly it should, otherwise why are we educating people in a field for them then not to utilise that learning productively? Higher education should not be simply a quicker route to the best jobs.

It may well be argued that someone aged 24 is a bit young for some of these roles, but to be brutally honest I’d take a 24-year-old sharp graduate any day of the week over some late middle-aged simpleton of whom the only thing they’re good at is winding desk lamp cables round table legs - and I’m sorry to say that’s a real example!

And the reverse can also be true, I've seen it myself. University graduates arriving full of confidence that they can do better, then falling flat on their faces through a combination of few work experience skills and inability to operate with others.

There may well be people who wonder themselves, or have other wondering on their behalf, “did I really need a degree to do this?”, however should they decide to go for something else they will still likely find they have elements of advantage, even many years after.

And again, this should not always be the case. Especially given that as a country we seem to lack skilled people in many sectors, with graduates preferring to chase the money wherever they can rather than pursuing careers where they can build on their education. But all of this is probably for another debate, as far as train drivers go I would much prefer to see good, experienced rail staff with a working knowledge of the industry being the ones heading for the cabs than some fresh faced graduate with a degree in computer science any day of the week!

 

[Stigy]

Driver Managers are difficult to find because they:

Have to deal with higher up management, who struggle to fully understand the role.

Have to deal with internal politics.

Get paid more than a driver in basic salary - but that's it - drivers can earn more with overtime.

Sometimes are on a 37 hour week, whilst drivers are on 35 - I once got a higher hourly rate than my driver manager even though his basic was more, because of this.

Work their hours over five days instead of four.

Be on call to respond to incidents - when there are uncovered driver manager vacancies, this with come around more often.

No longer get a boost to their 'all service' pension.


The job should be something to aspire to, but it isn't, and the amount of people I've seen become driver managers and then go back driving is huge. They can all read and write perfectly well. They could all do the job, it just isn't worth the hassle.


Then there's Trainer at the training school. "We're slowing down on recruitment now, we don't need as many Trainers any more."
Great - job security's good then?!

These roles are more precarious for not much more reward. That's why there may be difficulties finding people to do them.

This is probably at least partially why some TOCs recruit driver managers who aren’t drivers and/or have never been drivers (they’re cheaper, and because they’re not former train drivers, easier to recruit because of the reasons you mentioned).

It’s not something I agree with really for a role such as train driving, as I believe you should have experience in the job if you’re going to be advising staff on east practice etc. There are certain jobs whereby prior experience doesn’t matter, but in my opinion, a job like this should require managers who hold the same competencies as those they’re managing.

Where I work, the previous Head of Drivers had worked his way up, which is admirable, but had never driven a train.

 

[Sifyu]

I don't think having a degree should be a stringent requirement either. The role of Train Driver is great and brings so many varying groups together. Different ages, different backgrounds and different occupuations! We have graduates, people that used to work in the force, military personnel, chefs, cleaners, accountants etc.

I'd argue the role of Train Driver is the great equaliser in that regardless of your background, anyone can have a go (so long as you are able to get through the assessments and training). I'm a graduate myself and wouldn't want the role to be restricted to graduate only applications because I do think it would restrict capable people in getting the role. Now what I do think (and this has already been happening) is that apprenticeship based schemes should be opened alongside the standard application process for Train Drivers. That's the way forward and throw in a qualification at the end of it.
Going off topic, I have noticed that loads more graduates have got into the profession though as of late. Which is great of course.

 

[dk1]

This is probably at least partially why some TOCs recruit driver managers who aren’t drivers and/or have never been drivers (they’re cheaper, and because they’re not former train drivers, easier to recruit because of the reasons you mentioned).

It’s not something I agree with really for a role such as train driving, as I believe you should have experience in the job if you’re going to be advising staff on east practice etc. There are certain jobs whereby prior experience doesn’t matter, but in my opinion, a job like this should require managers who hold the same competencies as those they’re managing.

Where I work, the previous Head of Drivers had worked his way up, which is admirable, but had never driven a train.

All 5 driver managers & lead driver manager at my depot were all drivers themselves and a good relationship is achieved with us aswell as the union reps.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

I joined the railway in 1973 along with another school leaver. Because I had a smattering of GCEs I was told I would be joining t.he clerical grades. My mate had no qualifications and wa given a junior railman role before transferring to the footplate. I asked for a similar transfer and was old it wasn't possible as I had "qualifications". How times have changed!

 

[alf]

It is a job equivalent to the old machine minder.
I read somewhere, maybe here at UK rail forums, that the London & South Western Railway converted station porters to electric train motormen in 4 weeks from 1919 onward.

They trained at Strawberry Hill depot.

They were driving 6 or 8 car trains packed with commuters into & out of Waterloo to Shepperton, Hampton Court & round to Hounslow
after 24 days training on the new electric lines.

There would have been an outcry if it had caused a spike in accidents so presumably 24 days did the job.
Being a motorman can’t have been hard.

 

[Dieseldriver]

It is a job equivalent to the old machine minder.
I read somewhere, maybe here at UK rail forums, that the London & South Western Railway converted station porters to electric train motormen in 4 weeks from 1919 onward.

They trained at Strawberry Hill depot.

They were driving 6 or 8 car trains packed with commuters into & out of Waterloo to Shepperton, Hampton Court & round to Hounslow
after 24 days training on the new electric lines.

There would have been an outcry if it had caused a spike in accidents so presumably 24 days did the job.
Being a motorman can’t have been hard.

What’s your point?

 

[Fleetmaster]

Especially given that as a country we seem to lack skilled people in many sectors, with graduates preferring to chase the money wherever they can rather than pursuing careers where they can build on their education.

That's not even close to the problem.

An engineering/science/technical degree is most valuable in an engineering/science/technical sector. The easiest route to more money for an engineering graduate, is to move into management (a high proportion of managers are former engineers for very good reasons).

Nobody in their right mind leaves a science/engineering/technical career that they entered as a graduate and progressed through with Continuing Professional Development, just to take early retirement or stack supermarket shelves.

The problem is the dearth of school pupils being funelled into these degrees in the first place.

I asked for a similar transfer and was old it wasn't possible as I had "qualifications". How times have changed!

Indeed. Shortly into my engineering career I applied to be a coach driver, inspired by an open day that was little more than a recruitment drive. It was no more than a whim at first, but given my love of buses (their company being a favourite of mine) and travel, it seemed a pretty fair bet to me at least, that I would have been the best driver they ever had, and would have reached my goal of working up through the ranks from lowly commuter services, to become one of their Top Link (high end continental tours). I was young, I had the years to spare.

They rejected me outright, baffled that anyone with a degree would see this as a career. Even though I had no family of my own and was already pretty sure I was not the settling down type. Perfect for long distance coach travel.

Given the area in which the were based and paltry starting salary, it was a fair bet the guy (not girls at the time) who got the job most likely went on to get fired for stealing. I've never so much as brought a library book back late. Plenty of arrests for drunken disorderly, but you don't need to be a qualified therapist to know that was because I was deeply unhappy in my chosen career.

But at the time they interviewed me, I was yet to become a lawless ruffian, and was an upstanding citizen of good character. It was definitely my passion, since I did eventually get to see the Alps and the great continental capitals, and have always ascribed to the view that money can't buy you happiness, that only comes from doing a job that feeds your passion.

Not unhappy due to the engineering, my other passion, but, as people here should take note of, the often vicious and yet totally undeserved daily steaming pile of crap I got for having been promoted into management above men thirty years my junior, felt like a slap in the face, like I had been cheated out of the promise of a degree that this working class lad made good had been sold.

I evidently lacked the social skills it apparently takes to deal with men of that age/stock, even though all I was doing was asking them to work in a way that was proven to be more efficient and more likely to keep them in a job in the globalised world we had now entered. It baffled me that my "betters" could be such literal babies in how they manifested their grievances. It is of note that this working class lad raised in the 80s has no such weaknessss. Plenty of others, but not that.

My dad was a soldier. So perhaps it's not so unusual to me that educated and qualified men in their twenties can lead men in their thirties and forties into battle. Men who, If they think their boss is making a mistake, will deal with it like men, not babies.

This is perhaps what frightens train drivers of a certain vintage. Making their job a degree level post means their peers and even their juniors might end up being their managers, and until such time, as a mere worker, will perhaps never be as attracted to the mindset of a unionised worker, and even perhaps more than them, know the difference between being working class lad made good, and "working class" man earning 60k.

Fast forward to now, in contented middle age, and apparently I could walk into the Stagecoach bus depot up the road and get hired immediately, even if I gave them a fully honest CV that stated my qualifications and current salary. And perhaps I might, my love of buses still extant, my suitability for shift work still present, my finances in a place where I can afford to live on what is quite a princely salary for my area, until early retirement.

I'd do it, if it weren't for the fact that in the eyes of all too many a driver standing outside for their smoke break, I see the same old fears and resentments, insecurities and jealousies. The downsides of being working class, unions doing their damndest to keep everyone in their place.

 

[12LDA28C]

It's yes and no.

No because train driving isn't yet a degree subject (but certainly could be, like nursing, criminology, transport planning etc).

Yes because degrees generally are a sign you are a smart cookie who will bring value to the business far beyond the minimal proven expectation of diligence and integrity and maybe even industry specific knowledge, into areas such as flexibility, motivation and innovation.

More no, I would say.

In my experience the more 'intelligent' you are academically, the less suited you are to being a train driver.

Driving trains is often boring, monotonous and repetitive and anyone with a highly developed and active brain could very quickly become bored, distracted and thinking about other things instead of concentrating on the job. Some of the best drivers I know may not be the 'sharpest tool in the box' which is exactly why they make good drivers as they don't have so much excess mental capacity and hence don't get distracted when driving trains.

 

[Fleetmaster]

anyone can have a go (so long as you are able to get through the assessments and training).

A degree doesn't stop this. Theoretically, a degree course is open to all. We certainly have the capacity, If the explosion in student accommodation building is any guide.

For an industry with a skills shortage, making train driving a graduate career could and should (but perhaps not would) come with schemes that allow future earnings to go towards paying off the costs associated in getting a degree. Career switching, part time study and mature study are also things that are well established, easily transferable to a nominal train driver career.

And if the degree does end up showing that, for whatever reason, the student would be unsuitable for train driving, it's still likely to give them a better idea and a better chance of finding the career they are suited for than a failed here exam, and benefits everyone given the would most likely still be something railway related.

More no, I would say.

In my experience the more 'intelligent' you are academically, the less suited you are to being a train driver.

Driving trains is often boring, monotonous and repetitive and anyone with a highly developed and active brain could very quickly become bored, distracted and thinking about other things instead of concentrating on the job. Some of the best drivers I know may not be the 'sharpest tool in the box' which is exactly why they make good drivers as they don't have so much excess mental capacity and hence don't get distracted when driving trains.

And yet some might say that the ability to concentrate on a job that has aspects most might seem to think are boring, is the height of intelligence and mental ability. Surgeons, accountants, police, are all degree level jobs.

You can train high functioning minds to do this, and do it better than the industry average (pilots during autopilot mode, for example). Planes crash often when a moderately competent pilot forgets that the leeway to chit chat in these times of low mental activity does not carry with it an expectation you lose all situational awareness.

A high functioning mind can be trained to use any mental downtime to look out for the tiniest and most infrequently seen issue that might carry huge importance, as well as things which can help the company in other ways. It helps if the person is sitting in that seat because their commitment to the industry and the safety of their passengers had been shown to derive from something higher than the fear they themselves might get fired or even die if they don't approach the role with absolute professionalism. A degree shows that pretty well.

And if anything, it's the easily bored and distracted that fare badly in an academic environment, as well as those who are simply not smart enough to produce work of sufficient quality. In the latter years, it necessarily takes a lot of concentration and commitment.

 

[12LDA28C]

And yet some might say that the ability to concentrate on a job that has aspects most might seem to think are boring, is the height of intelligence and mental ability. Surgeons, accountants, police, are all degree level jobs.

Some might well say that. My post was related to many actual drivers I know, if the people you quote can say the same then fair enough.

 

[PupCuff]

It's an interesting question and with some good points raised.

I'm not so sure it should be a graduate profession, purely on the basis that I don't think that would necessarily solve the issues with skill that currently exists.

One example - comprehension. Across the industry, not just drivers to be fair, standards of comprehension of written English are poor. Whether that is when actually doing the writing (eg writing a report and you think what you have written says one thing but actually it reads as something else) or interpreting, say, a notice or working instruction (eg I have seen many cases where someone is told you must do x, y and z, and they have read this as as long as you do one of them, this is acceptable).

Using that issue as an example, unless you're only taking on an English graduate, which would severely limit the talent pool, a degree in a niche subject from a minor university will look good but won't really help address the issue.

It almost to me feels like the psychometrics should be refocused to prioritise less on crossing out dots and more on general 'intelligence' - for want of a better word; the RAAT is a good example of a test which would help with this but afaik it isn't generally used for Drivers.

 

[Turtle]

It is a job equivalent to the old machine minder.
I read somewhere, maybe here at UK rail forums, that the London & South Western Railway converted station porters to electric train motormen in 4 weeks from 1919 onward.

They trained at Strawberry Hill depot.

They were driving 6 or 8 car trains packed with commuters into & out of Waterloo to Shepperton, Hampton Court & round to Hounslow
after 24 days training on the new electric lines.

There would have been an outcry if it had caused a spike in accidents so presumably 24 days did the job.
Being a motorman can’t have been hard.

Can you quote a reliable source for this statement? From what I have read there was a large number of passed firemen available at that time who were qualified for conversion to electric traction due to their routes and rule knowledge. I think these individuals would have been given priority over porters.

 

[paddy1]

I hope they don't go down this road of 'graduate only'. Unnecessary elitism and snobbery that tries to make something more of a 'white collar' only profession than what it actually is (as with the police). They did this with the police and it effectively excluded lots of potentially suitable candidates (e.g. ex- military service personnel or those who 'don't tick enough boxes' ) and allowed through lots of highly unsuitable ones that simply can't 'hack it' in many situations on the front line. Thankfully this is now being reversed in some police forces and they are welcoming ex-military and non-graduates once again. Being a graduate doesn't suddenly endow you with a 'gravitas' or highly articulate written, verbal, grammatical and inter-personal communication skills over and above people who don't have, or chose not to study for, a degree. You don't need a degree to be a police officer, you don't need a degree to be a train driver. There is room for applicants with a wide range of education and/or life and work experience in both.

 

[dk1]

I hope they don't go down this road of 'graduate only'. Unnecessary elitism and snobbery that tries to make something more of a 'white collar' only profession that what it actually is (as with the police). They did this with the police and it effectively excluded lots of potentially suitable candidates (e.g. ex- military service personnel or those who 'don't tick enough boxes' ) and allowed through lots of highly unsuitable ones that simply can't 'hack it' in many situations on the front line. Thankfully this is now being reversed in some police forces and they are welcoming ex-military and non-graduates once again. Being a graduate doesn't suddenly endow you with a 'gravitas' or highly articulate written, verbal, grammatical and inter-personal communication skills over and above people who don't have, or chose not to study for, a degree. You don't need a degree to be a police officer, you don't need a degree to be a train driver. There is room for applicants with a wide range of education and/or life and work experience in both.

I don't think there is any chance they will. Nothing to worry about on that score.

 

[Archvile]

I hope they don't go down this road of 'graduate only'. Unnecessary elitism and snobbery that tries to make something more of a 'white collar' only profession than what it actually is (as with the police). They did this with the police and it effectively excluded lots of potentially suitable candidates (e.g. ex- military service personnel or those who 'don't tick enough boxes' ) and allowed through lots of highly unsuitable ones that simply can't 'hack it' in many situations on the front line. Thankfully this is now being reversed in some police forces and they are welcoming ex-military and non-graduates once again. Being a graduate doesn't suddenly endow you with a 'gravitas' or highly articulate written, verbal, grammatical and inter-personal communication skills over and above people who don't have, or chose not to study for, a degree. You don't need a degree to be a police officer, you don't need a degree to be a train driver. There is room for applicants with a wide range of education and/or life and work experience in both.

I agree with everything you say. In a perfect workforce, there will be a healthy mixture of different backgrounds who all learn from and respect each others' respective experiences. You can add 'paramedic' to that list - friend of the family is a paramedic inspector (yes, they exist!) and told us that whilst it's not always the case, there's definitely a demographic of paramedics these days who can quote the theory to the letter, but have no idea how to calm down somebody high on drugs and convinced that they're dying!

 

[paddy1]

I agree with everything you say. In a perfect workforce, there will be a healthy mixture of different backgrounds who all learn from and respect each others' respective experiences. You can add 'paramedic' to that list - friend of the family is a paramedic inspector (yes, they exist!) and told us that whilst it's not always the case, there's definitely a demographic of paramedics these days who can quote the theory to the letter, but have no idea how to calm down somebody high on drugs and convinced that they're dying!

Thanks. When I was in the job, there was certainly a proportion of the new intake of graduate police probationers who felt they had little or nothing to learn from more experienced front line officers.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I wasn’t nearly clever enough to go to university, I scraped some GCSEs but have no A Levels.

Thank goodness for train driving allowing me to earn a decent salary with no need for a degree. I don’t think there are many other places I could earn what I do now (unless I happened to be exceptionally good at football or motor racing or singing). Restricting the role to graduates only would be awful for us thickies, and having a degree certainly doesn’t (automatically) make you a good train driver.

 

[Stigy]

I wasn’t nearly clever enough to go to university, I scraped some GCSEs but have no A Levels.

Thank goodness for train driving allowing me to earn a decent salary with no need for a degree. I don’t think there are many other places I could earn what I do now (unless I happened to be exceptionally good at football or motor racing or singing). Restricting the role to graduates only would be awful for us thickies, and having a degree certainly doesn’t (automatically) make you a good train driver.

You can work your way up in many industries without the need for a degree, by upskilling or gaining vocational qualifications etc, however the fact remains (and I’ve see it first hand), that graduates are usually preferred, no matter what the discipline.

 

[AlterEgo]

You can work your way up in many industries without the need for a degree, by upskilling or gaining vocational qualifications etc, however the fact remains (and I’ve see it first hand), that graduates are usually preferred, no matter what the discipline.

It’s hard to see why. Take a look at how many students and graduate students populate the D+P area of the forum. Many of them can’t even write in meaningful English. One was unable to even write a letter without being prompted.

A degree is meaningless unless it’s relevant. A lot of graduates are extremely dull.

 

[Huntergreed]

I think the societal idea that all “respectable” jobs (and train driving absolutely is a respectable profession) should be carried out by degree-holders is a very misguided perception.

Many people seem to have the view today that all school leavers who can pursue study in a higher education institution should/must do so to be “successful”, and I think this is a very dangerous view.

We must ask ourselves, what does a degree actually mean? It certainly isn’t, in my view, a measure of intelligence, as many who hold a degree (or indeed several degrees in my experience!) are often unable to apply even basic common sense or problem solving skills, less so the more complex skillset required in the train driving profession.

A degree is simply a measure of one’s level of study into a specific field, nothing more. It is not a measure of intelligence, it is not a measure of aptitude, and it certainly isn’t a measure of overall suitability for a particular job role (in most cases).

There are a small number of exceptions to this rule (as with every rule of course). Medicine, nursing and teaching degrees are, to a certain extent, a measure of suitability for those roles (only as job-specific training and the assessment of competency based upon this training is integrated into these programmes).

Certainly, train driving could become a graduate profession if a degree was specifically designed to include the entire training programme (and likely additional study into different related aspects to ensure an adequate number of credits). There would, however, be no merit in doing this and, in my view, the only consequence would be that it would attract and accept into the profession a wider range of candidates less suitable for the role.

 

[pethadine82]

A person's ability should not be solely be based on academia. These days there is so much neurodiversity and people are mismatched . If someone was passionate and had the capabilities to pass the assessment then don't see why not? Is Asperger's and dyslexia a bar , so many kids these days have this diagnosis.

 

[dk1]

Is Asperger's and dyslexia a bar , so many kids these days have this diagnosis.

Is it true so many suffer these nowadays or has it always been but less diagnosed/accepted?

 

[Stigy]

Is it true so many suffer these nowadays or has it always been but less diagnosed/accepted?

I think it’s only now being diagnosed. When I was at school in the nineties, if you were struggling with certain things, it was just he way it was and you were put in the lower groups for that subject. Now, it’s far different and teachers and teaching assistants are far better trained and equipped to deal with and even test for things like dyslexia.

 

[dk1]

I think it’s only now being diagnosed. When I was at school in the nineties, if you were struggling with certain things, it was just he way it was and you were put in the lower groups for that subject. Now, it’s far different and teachers and teaching assistants are far better trained and equipped to deal with and even test for things like dyslexia.

Yes at my high school in the 80s they just got put into the ‘special’ class until they eventually stopped attending altogether. When I joined the railway one of those a couple of years behind me managed to gain employment without anyone knowing he couldn’t properly read or write. BR paid for him to attend evening classes.