Should trains from the South West of England call at Old Oak Common?

[cle]

I really don't think only 5% of people will use OOC, vs 95% to Paddington. And how many new journeys might there be. Or how demand to there grows (lots of housing, offices - I could see company relos happening)

Yes Crossrail is at Paddington too, and HS2 is a bit niche / won't be quicker for all - and it's more handy for a double back to Heathrow - but if other (unfunded but not crazy to imagine) - NLL and even WLO services join the fray, it will become much more of a hub in each direction, more of a Stratford. WLL would be the best, but seems the least likely.

HS2 will have TONS of capacity to Birmingham. To a point where it might be incentivized to route that way vs XC from Bristol or Reading. So I think that'll be interesting to watch.

 

[MarkyT]

No, you couldn't, because you were making one train journey using two tickets, and therefore the second ticket would be valid on the next available* train and Delay Repay would be claimable on the full value of both tickets. It's not Eurostar. It'll be exactly the same as Advances are now.

Does this require both tickets are purchased in the same transaction with a common booking reference. If I bought the two tickets separately, how is there any proof I intended to use them sequentially.

* If HS2 enforces actual compulsory reservations then this might involve rebooking, of course, but that would be at no cost to you.

That could be difficult at a busy time through normal channels perhaps.

There is a small chance HS2 runs totally standalone like Eurostar, but I'd be surprised if it did. Most likely it'll all be GBR by then.

Maybe, though a change of Government could alter such a policy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does this require both tickets are purchased in the same transaction with a common booking reference.

No.

If I bought the two tickets separately, how is there any proof I intended to use them sequentially.

You don't need to prove you intended to use them sequentially. You just need to board the train, and when the guard comes along show both tickets and explain why you aren't on the booked train, and that's it, they will scan your ticket and mark it as accepted. If you prefer you can go to a booking office and have it endorsed there but you don't have to.

There are a small number of staff who don't know that this is the rule and cause trouble. If you encounter one, the best approach is to pay the fare requested and pursue a refund via customer services which should be forthcoming fairly easily.

That could be difficult at a busy time through normal channels perhaps.

Perhaps, but no different to a through ticket.

Maybe, though a change of Government could alter such a policy.

They could, but it's unlikely we will end up with HS2 fully standalone.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If the proposed London Overground stations are not built then I can understand this, however for the sake of what, 3 minutes, it’s not exactly a big deal to stop.
Those celebrating this seem to think adding a few minutes to a journey to/from the South West is a huge issue. It’s not and no passenger is going to notice. There are plenty of ways to save time, such as the 5 minutes at Reading.

It's about capacity. Trains to and from the South West to OOC will be rammed if all GWR services stop there (especially for the period that HS2 may be open to OOC, but not Euston). Outbound from Paddington, this would prevent many South West bound passengers boarding.

Really the issue is with capacity OOC to Paddington - only some Elizabeth Line services will be extended from Paddington, due to capacity issues further west/lack of destinations, and with HS2 opening to OOC initially, and a lot of HS2 passengers heading to Central London, the GWML is going to take the lion's share of the passengers whether Elizabeth Line, Heathrow Express or GWR.

One solution could also be to restrict the GWR services (apart from perhaps the outer suburban Didcot Parkway services) to pick up at OOC westbound/set down eastbound, in order to still permit long and medium distance GWR passengers to use services, but not short hop travellers, who will crowd out those medium/long distance passengers with no choice but to use GWR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because Paddington is in the sticks I'd be very surprised if there was a lot of traffic doing what you say. People will prefer the Liz as it goes to/near the part of London they are going to. Though I think most long distance passengers will stick with the existing services to/from Euston in that early phase anyway, unless HS2 really price-dumps (i.e. cheaper than WMT and Chiltern).

It's not like Reading which is so far out that you save a lot of time by taking a fast to Paddington and changing.

 

[Class15]

Because Paddington is in the sticks I'd be very surprised if there was a lot of traffic doing what you say. People will prefer the Liz as it goes to/near the part of London they are going to. Though I think most long distance passengers will stick with the existing services to/from Euston in that early phase anyway, unless HS2 really price-dumps (i.e. cheaper than WMT and Chiltern).

It's not like Reading which is so far out that you save a lot of time by taking a fast to Paddington and changing.

Paddington is not ‘in the sticks’. It also offers a direct connection to the Bakerloo, Circle, District and Hammersmith & City lines. I don’t know why everyone is saying Paddington is badly placed, it really isn’t. Oh and plus there are loads of Lizzie line trains starting at Paddington which will not only not serve OOC but also will be empty coming into Paddington.

Great decision. Hope it lasts.

 

[A S Leib]

Oh and plus there are loads of Lizzie line trains starting at Paddington which will not only not serve OOC but also will be empty coming into Paddington.

I thought that the plan was for all of those services to go through to Old Oak Common, but I might be wrong on that.

 

[Class15]

I thought that the plan was for all of those services to go through to Old Oak Common, but I might be wrong on that.

I think the plan was for some? I’m not convinced you can fit all of them through without some major interventions between Paddington and Old Oak.

 

[camflyer]

Seems to be a very strange and short-sighted decision, especially one that the minister is "glad" to announce. So, passengers from the SW have journeys extended by a few minutes but it opens up many other connections (not just Heathrow!) in west London, Overground and Elizabeth Line not to mention the people from those areas heading west.

I though the point of OOC is that it would be a mega-hub taking pressure off the central London terminals

 

[MarlowDonkey]

If the timetable remains where most if not all trains stop at Reading, it may not be so difficult to hop off the non-stop 80x to Paddington and catch the next 80x stopping at OOC. It's an extra change for those doubling back on Heathrow.

 

[Bald Rick]

OOC would be 7 ish minutes difference for 95% of passengers versus 15 minutes benefit for 5%.

OOC would be 4 minutes for the stop.

 

[I'm here now]

I might use it if it works out cheaper than going to Paddington w/ Liz fare.

 

[fishwomp]

OOC would be 4 minutes for the stop.

Do you mean at the platform - or with deceleration and acceleration included?!

 

[Class15]

Do you mean at the platform - or with deceleration and acceleration included?!

I very much doubt it’s the latter. You need quite a bit of time there.

 

[The Planner]

I very much doubt it’s the latter. You need quite a bit of time there.

4 is normal for a stop with a 2 minute dwell.

 

[fishwomp]

4 is normal for a stop with a 2 minute dwell.

"username checks out"..

 

[CW2]

If you have a common, consistent stopping pattern i.e.all FL trains call at OOC then you make the best possible use of route capacity. Conversely, if (say) 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 trains miss OOC then you lose several paths per hour. So the journey time gain for a select number of passengers has to be measured against the loss of service frequency for all route users.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you mean at the platform - or with deceleration and acceleration included?!

including acceleration and deceleration. 1 minute for each and 2 mins dwell. That is the standard timing for a class 80x stop on otherwise 125mph railway. As this is a 100mph railway at that point, it’s likely that the time loss will ben less than 4 mins with a 2 minute dwell, but I suspect it will be timed at 4 minutes for a bit of security.

 

[irish_rail]

including acceleration and deceleration. 1 minute for each and 2 mins dwell. That is the standard timing for a class 80x stop on otherwise 125mph railway. As this is a 100mph railway at that point, it’s likely that the time loss will ben less than 4 mins with a 2 minute dwell, but I suspect it will be timed at 4 minutes for a bit of security.

OK there is absolutely no way that GwR drivers (the majority anyway, especially the "desirable " new breed) brake from 125mph to a stand in one minute. That just isn't how drivers are trained to drive these days. It simply isn't realistic. Also, especially in the up direction you will find trains running on restrictive signals way way before Old Oak. At the minute the restrictive signals start around Ealing on a good day, much earlier on a bad day. Add OOC into the mix and those restrictive signals are going to kick in even earlier. 4 minutes may work theoretically, though in practice , not a chance.
There is also the question of certain busy trains that tend to leave Paddington full. Will take an age to board the OOC passengers when there are already passengers stood in the doorways. Remember these aren't metro trains with a wealth of doors, they are intercity trains with end of carriage doors. Passengers for the south west will be laden with luggage too in a way that is only comparable with Anglo Scottish stuff. I suspect the 4 minute suggestion would privately be being laughed at in the corridors of Western Towers in Swindon.....

 

[Bald Rick]

OK there is absolutely no way that GwR drivers (the majority anyway, especially the "desirable " new breed) brake from 125mph to a stand in one minute.

I didn’t say they did brake from 125 to a stand in one minute.
I said the time loss is one minute, compared to running from the braking point to the end of the platform at 125mph. It is timetabled as such at Didcot about 100 times a day, along with probably another 500 or more examples daily at Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stevenage, Peterborough, Newark, Retford, Northallerton, Darlington and, err, Chippenham.

There is also the question of certain busy trains that tend to leave Paddington full.

Perhaps they wont be so full if some people who currently board at Paddington are boarding at OOC instead?

 

[The Planner]

OK there is absolutely no way that GwR drivers (the majority anyway, especially the "desirable " new breed) brake from 125mph to a stand in one minute. That just isn't how drivers are trained to drive these days. It simply isn't realistic. Also, especially in the up direction you will find trains running on restrictive signals way way before Old Oak. At the minute the restrictive signals start around Ealing on a good day, much earlier on a bad day. Add OOC into the mix and those restrictive signals are going to kick in even earlier. 4 minutes may work theoretically, though in practice , not a chance.
There is also the question of certain busy trains that tend to leave Paddington full. Will take an age to board the OOC passengers when there are already passengers stood in the doorways. Remember these aren't metro trains with a wealth of doors, they are intercity trains with end of carriage doors. Passengers for the south west will be laden with luggage too in a way that is only comparable with Anglo Scottish stuff. I suspect the 4 minute suggestion would privately be being laughed at in the corridors of Western Towers in Swindon.....

As @Bald Rick and I have noted plenty of times before, how does it work at Didcot then?

 

[irish_rail]

As @Bald Rick and I have noted plenty of times before, how does it work at Didcot then?

Quite simply it doesn't. At Didcot on the Up the driver is always checked down due to a red signal on the end of the platform and thus braking begins at the double yellow signal at Milton, just after Steventon. Takes about 3 minutes to come in I reckon, and I hasten to add I'm one of the old school who drive a little harder, ATP warbling, doesn't phase me in a way it does newer drivers, so I suspect they take a little longer.

 

[irish_rail]

Perhaps they wont be so full if some people who currently board at Paddington are boarding at OOC instead?

So who will be boarding at OOC? Those coming from Heathrow perhaps, thats about it. I genuinely cant see why anyone would choose to stay on the Elizabeth line longer, and probably miss out on a seat, when they can just board at Paddington in good time and have a better chance of a good seat..... so Heathrow passengers heading to the far south west, I'd estimate that's about 1 percent of our trainload.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Because Paddington is in the sticks I'd be very surprised if there was a lot of traffic doing what you say. People will prefer the Liz as it goes to/near the part of London they are going to. Though I think most long distance passengers will stick with the existing services to/from Euston in that early phase anyway, unless HS2 really price-dumps (i.e. cheaper than WMT and Chiltern).

It's not like Reading which is so far out that you save a lot of time by taking a fast to Paddington and changing.

I have mentioned that Paddington now has a lot of high quality office space within 10 mins walk in another thread, and I think a lot of the initial HS2 traffic will be business-orientated.

 

[Bald Rick]

So who will be boarding at OOC? Those coming from Heathrow perhaps, thats about it. I genuinely cant see why anyone would choose to stay on the Elizabeth line longer, and probably miss out on a seat, when they can just board at Paddington in good time and have a better chance of a good seat..... so Heathrow passengers heading to the far south west, I'd estimate that's about 1 percent of our trainload.

So no one is boarding at OOC, therefore they can be shorter dwell times, thereby the time loss is even less!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Because Paddington is in the sticks I'd be very surprised if there was a lot of traffic doing what you say. People will prefer the Liz as it goes to/near the part of London they are going to. Though I think most long distance passengers will stick with the existing services to/from Euston in that early phase anyway, unless HS2 really price-dumps (i.e. cheaper than WMT and Chiltern).

It's not like Reading which is so far out that you save a lot of time by taking a fast to Paddington and changing.

Except that Paddington is not "in the sticks".
It is better placed for connections to a lot of London than OOC / the Liz line is (basically anything on the north or south of the circle, and west back towards Hammersmith etc).
And even in itself Paddington has an awful lot of offices and other amenities to make it a destination in and of itself these days too.

 

[Class15]

Except that Paddington is not "in the sticks".
It is better placed for connections to a lot of London than OOC / the Liz line is (basically anything on the north or south of the circle, and west back towards Hammersmith etc).
And even in itself Paddington has an awful lot of offices and other amenities to make it a destination in and of itself these days too.

Exactly, Paddington has more connections than OOC and nowadays there are quite a lot of retail outlets etc. along the canal. It’s way better for most people than OOC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except that Paddington is not "in the sticks".
It is better placed for connections to a lot of London than OOC / the Liz line is (basically anything on the north or south of the circle, and west back towards Hammersmith etc).
And even in itself Paddington has an awful lot of offices and other amenities to make it a destination in and of itself these days too.

This really isn't true. The best way from OOC to most of central London is to take the Liz to an appropriate interchange and then the Tube from there, because the Liz is so fast and the shallow Tube is so excruciatingly slow. The only exception to that is areas around Paddington.

This isn't the same issue as whether HS2 should go to Euston - it should, because an extra change is a faff if you were going onward from Euston on foot or by bicycle, e-scooter, bus or taxi. If you're going to the City by Tube, OOC is likely to be far better because of the Liz.

Taking a GWR train from OOC to Paddington then connecting onwards from there is something an enthusiast would do because they want a ride on the big train, not something a normal passenger would do. That same debate has been had over Heathrow Express, but that's subject to huge marketing that pushes people onto it even where it's not the best option for them and even then doesn't load particularly heavily these days.

 

[Class15]

This really isn't true. The best way from OOC to most of central London is to take the Liz to an appropriate interchange and then the Tube from there, because the Liz is so fast and the shallow Tube is so excruciatingly slow. The only exception to that is areas around Paddington.

This isn't the same issue as whether HS2 should go to Euston - it should, because an extra change is a faff if you were going onward from Euston on foot or by bicycle, e-scooter, bus or taxi. If you're going to the City by Tube, OOC is likely to be far better because of the Liz.

Taking a GWR train from OOC to Paddington then connecting onwards from there is something an enthusiast would do because they want a ride on the big train, not something a normal passenger would do. That same debate has been had over Heathrow Express, but that's subject to huge marketing that pushes people onto it even where it's not the best option for them and even then doesn't load particularly heavily these days.

That’s not what’s being said. If I’m on a train from Devon, and want Central London, I’d always get off at Paddington. Unless the North London line station is built, HS2 will be the only interchange at OOC that won’t exist at Paddington, and as has been said earlier, there are direct trains from much of GWR land to Birmingham anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s not what’s being said. If I’m on a train from Devon, and want Central London, I’d always get off at Paddington. Unless the North London line station is built, HS2 will be the only interchange at OOC that won’t exist at Paddington, and as has been said earlier, there are direct trains from much of GWR land to Birmingham anyway.

Nobody is saying you would get off at OOC if you were coming in on a GWR service unless you wanted to go to the local area around that station. My original reply related to a post discussing what people would do when they get off HS2 when it initially terminates at OOC for a few years, and whether GWR services should carry those passengers between OOC and Paddington, to which my answer was that even if they do hardly anyone will choose that option because getting straight on the Liz at OOC will be preferable over the additional change and possibly quicker too because that change wastes time.

Of course a passenger coming in on GWR will change to the Liz at Paddington instead, that wasn't what I was disputing.

Edit: Reading is different because it's a much longer distance to London than OOC is, so taking the fast and changing rather than taking a through Liz does save a fair bit of time.