Sleepers trains from London to Europe.

[paul1609]

The 'route' I referred to was for passengers to circulate at St Pancras. But since when as the NLL beyond Willesden Junction been 5 minutes between Overground services? There always used to be regular freight paths through the day that for 1 slot could given over to passenger trains.

I never said it was practical, just that it was more worth it than a Scottish service, given the relative distance between Paddington and St Pancras as compared to King's Cross or Euston. I agree with other comments - the best way to do this is to run a late London-Brussels day train and connect into sleepers there.

I Believe that the freight routes on the North london Line are between the WCML via Primrose Hill to Camden Rd and from the GW Main line via Gospel Oak but that there isn't any capacity from St Pancras through to the Western region as a combination of the flat junctions and the London Overground frequency. Obviously there are better qualified persons than me on this forum to say.

 

[zwk500]

I Believe that the freight routes on the North london Line are between the WCML via Primrose Hill to Camden Rd and from the GW Main line via Gospel Oak but that there isn't any capacity from St Pancras through to the Western region as a combination of the flat junctions and the London Overground frequency. Obviously there are better qualified persons than me on this forum to say.

If you can get from the GWML to Gospel Oak, you can keep running to Camden Road to access the North London Incline. I last timetable trains in the Dec19 timetable, but I could usually find paths from Southall to Finsbury Park and vice versa. Not easy, and it was a case of picking the freight that didn't run (STP), but they were there with the NLL running at a 7/8 minute frequency. If you can get to the North London Incline, you can get to St Pancras.

Either way, it's academic as the economics and logistics of such a service would kill it well before questions of timings.

As an aside, does anybody know when HS1 and LGV Nord shut for overnight maintenance? I presume the tunnel switches to 1-track operation to maintain shuttles through the night when required?

 

[miklcct]

Forget about tip up seats and that nonsense. To all intents and purposes it is like an aeroplane - the seating capacity is the seating capacity.

If Eurostar behaves like an aeroplane there is no advantage in taking Eurostar at all compared to taking a real aeroplane.

Remember that the main thing distinguishing train travel from aeroplane is the ability to have standing passengers, i.e. if a train can run you are unlikely to be stranded due to it being full of capacity, and you can also pay the walk-up fare to travel immediately without the fear of selling out.

 

[zwk500]

If Eurostar behaves like an aeroplane there is no advantage in taking Eurostar at all compared to taking a real aeroplane.

Remember that the main thing distinguishing train travel from aeroplane is the ability to have standing passengers, i.e. if a train can run you are unlikely to be stranded due to it being full of capacity, and you can also pay the walk-up fare to travel immediately without the fear of selling out.

No, the main thing distinguishing train travel from aeroplanes is the centre-to-centre times. London and Paris's main airports require lengthy landside journeys to reach the city centre once you've landed. The train does not. Brussels and Amsterdam face this problem to a lesser degree because they are smaller cities, but even so this is why all 4 cities have significant business districts on the edge of the city - Hayes is awash with business parks, Paris has La Defense, Amsterdam-Zuid etc,.

Plenty of train services across the world operate on a reservations-only business model, and do so perfectly well. There is no risk of being stranded as you were never offered a ticket for a train that's full.

 

[ShadowKnight]

Didn't the original Nightstar coaches have a portable customs post? Could something like that be done as a general point?

 

[dutchflyer]

If Eurostar behaves like an aeroplane there is no advantage in taking Eurostar at all compared to taking a real aeroplane.

Remember that the main thing distinguishing train travel from aeroplane is the ability to have standing passengers, i.e. if a train can run you are unlikely to be stranded due to it being full of capacity, and you can also pay the walk-up fare to travel immediately without the fear of selling out.

Yes, but as such there is-at least in EUR, plus also in that in a few yrs grown to be the very largest such network in this world, China-mainland, on all hi-speed/superfast lines this is simply not allowed. On what are best thought of as ´semi-hi-speed´by DB in Germany they also offload pax when some rules about nr of standees are passed over. So I assume there must be some overwhelming reason due to security to it. It -AFAIK-can only still happen in Japan, but even there not on the very fastest new breed (the old style ShinKanSen have sections for RES and NON-RES, except very logical for the very last sector of any trip).
Also remember from long ago that on some very heavy use ´shuttle´ flight routes in USA it was a matter of walk-up till plane was fully seated-then you were herded to next one-and pay on board! Routes like NYC-WAS or BOS or perhaps SFO-LAX. So no really fixed timings, but you were sure to be on the way in 60 mins after arrival at airprot. But do not know if that is still so, I guess not. Trains are not possible even to follow that model........

 

[popeter45]

Didn't the original Nightstar coaches have a portable customs post? Could something like that be done as a general point?

no they didnt as far as i know
did look at a similar idea but you would have issues with thruput, segragation of checked/non-checked, how to handle issues and PRM issues of how to get a wheelchair past a bag scanner in a UK gauge van and once thru how to get to disabled rooms if having to go thru the train to get to rooms (similar to situation with 2 of the 2 disabled rooms on the cally), current idea ive toyed with would be a 3 carriage customs portion, one just a standard TSO setup as waiting abiet with extra luggage space, one thats a customs setup with passport check and bag checks and finally a lounge car to provide dining as well as a waiting area for disabled passengers so once at a secure station like st pancreas can be transfered via platform to disabled room

 

[ShadowKnight]

no they didnt as far as i know
did look at a similar idea but you would have issues with thruput, segragation of checked/non-checked, how to handle issues and PRM issues of how to get a wheelchair past a bag scanner in a UK gauge van and once thru how to get to disabled rooms if having to go thru the train to get to rooms (similar to situation with 2 of the 2 disabled rooms on the cally), current idea ive toyed with would be a 3 carriage customs portion, one just a standard TSO setup as waiting abiet with extra luggage space, one thats a customs setup with passport check and bag checks and finally a lounge car to provide dining as well as a waiting area for disabled passengers so once at a secure station like st pancreas can be transfered via platform to disabled room

I know that these was a service coach that had "customs accommodation" if not having a travelling border post there certainly was plans to take border staff onboard.

I have been recently trying to find the British rail report in the 1980s discussing passenger services to Europe including the sleeper. I have forgotten the name however if someone had this report somewhere I am sure there would be some interesting information there

 

[zwk500]

I know that these was a service coach that had "customs accommodation" if not having a travelling border post there certainly was plans to take border staff onboard.

I have been recently trying to find the British rail report in the 1980s discussing passenger services to Europe including the sleeper. I have forgotten the name however if someone had this report somewhere I am sure there would be some interesting information there

Regardless of if it was planned or not, it would no longer be suitable for political theatre reasons.

 

[Chester1]

When we join Schengen in a few years time, as a condition of rejoining the EU, most of these constraints will disappear!

Bit late noticing this post! Guy Verhofstadt wrote in the Independent this week that the UK will eventually rejoin. The most significant aspect was that he said privately the influential people in the EU are aware that the UK will need to be offered a special deal for it to be viable. Although no longer President of EU Parliament he is still extremely well connected within EU, so its quite an important comment. Most people who support rejoining stop doing so if its reliant on joining Euro and Schengen. Full participation in European project has maybe 20-25% support. Rejoining if offered opt outs is consistently on over 50%. I can't see it happening for at least 15 years. I wouldn't bet on rejoining enabling easy international services!

 

[Roast Veg]

Bit late noticing this post! Guy Verhofstadt wrote in the Independent this week that the UK will eventually rejoin. The most significant aspect was that he said privately the influential people in the EU are aware that the UK will need to be offered a special deal for it to be viable. Although no longer President of EU Parliament he is still extremely well connected within EU, so its quite an important comment. Most people who support rejoining stop doing so if its reliant on joining Euro and Schengen. Full participation in European project has maybe 20-25% support. Rejoining if offered opt outs is consistently on over 50%. I can't see it happening for at least 15 years. I wouldn't bet on rejoining enabling easy international services!

I suspect we will rejoin in all but name. Our own very special deal, that just so happens to look like what we had before.

 

[Chester1]

I suspect we will rejoin in all but name. Our own very special deal, that just so happens to look like what we had before.

That would be very embarrassing for UK but it would also be a (lesser) embarrassment for EU, formalising "British exceptionalism."

Verhofstadt proposed "associate membership" in 2015. This is essentially membership of single market only but unlike Norway/Swiss would include some representation in EU institutions. Under his proposal all new members would have to become associate members first and would need to join Euro and Schengen at the same time that they became full members (although presumably if already in Schengen they could stay in it). I think Verhofstadt wants any future offer to the UK to be appealing to Norway, Switzerland and Iceland.

Schengen is a deal breaker for many EU supporting Brits. The other European island nations are in a different position. Cyprus and Ireland don't currently have a choice, Malta didn’t have a choice but to join and Iceland gets very little illegal migration. Illegal migration is a hot button topic already, proposing scrapping passport controls is unlikely to be popular. What we need is fast competent roll out of the most efficient security systems and checks to make the border for British and EU citizens almost seemless.

 

[Struner]

you mean EFTA

 

[StephenHunter]

Midnight Trains, who still seem to want to do Edinburgh-Paris as the graphic on their website is still showing it, actually dropped an email update that wasn't just a discussion about railway history or culture - they say they've got a contract with an unnamed manufacturer for new build rolling stock.

 

[telstarbox]

Oh aye

 

[popeter45]

Midnight Trains, who still seem to want to do Edinburgh-Paris as the graphic on their website is still showing it, actually dropped an email update that wasn't just a discussion about railway history or culture - they say they've got a contract with an unnamed manufacturer for new build rolling stock.

my money would be on such carriages not to be for a Edinburgh-Paris, they seem to want to offer other routes that i suspect would be the primary objectives for now

 

[Cheshire Scot]

If they are serious about Edinburgh to Paris I would have thought Newcastle and York would be desirable as traffic generators and they would therefore require facilities at all three. On the French side, although not the direct route to Paris, perhaps Lille for connections to Brussels - and other cities.

 

[D365]

Apologies if I've missed this - when will tickets for London-Berlin be available? I'm thinking of trying this out in September, in conjunction with a Germany Interrail ticket.

 

[StephenHunter]

Apologies if I've missed this - when will tickets for London-Berlin be available? I'm thinking of trying this out in September, in combination with a Germany Interrail ticket.

February for the May launch.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Verhofstadt wan't the President of the Parliament, but he was a leader of the Liberal grouping and also chair of the Parliament's Brexit committee so I can see where the misunderstanding arose. He's a really sensible individual and, like many European policitians from the centre, is by all accounts a huge Anglophile. And, having managed to be Prime Minister of Belgium for almost a decade (not easy job), he knows how to get things done...
That said, the UK is miles off rejoining the EU and certainly from joining Schengen. The UK has always had its own frontier controls and joining Schengen would mean they were only a strong as the weakest link of the Schengen frontier.... The Home Office would always object to relying on that eg. from a security perspective. What might perhaps be possible is some move towards freer movement eg. stays of 180 days permitted rather than 90 as now???

 

[Bald Rick]

Midnight Trains, who still seem to want to do Edinburgh-Paris as the graphic on their website is still showing it, actually dropped an email update that wasn't just a discussion about railway history or culture - they say they've got a contract with an unnamed manufacturer for new build rolling stock.

Edinburgh - Paris isn’t going to happen, for all the reasons set out in the thread on the subject.

Not least that if even half the Edinburgh - Paris air passengers decided they would much rather prefer a £300-£500 one way trip taking 10hours+ over a flight costing £25-£100 taking 2hours, they would barely fill a sleepr train.

 

[rvdborgt]

Apologies if I've missed this - when will tickets for London-Berlin be available? I'm thinking of trying this out in September, in combination with a Germany Interrail ticket.

On 20 February:

The Train | European Sleeper

Book a comfortable sleeper train and travel throughout Europe. Read about timetables and options for seats and sleeping compartments at European Sleeper.

www.europeansleeper.eu

It also says: "Currently, we are unable to accept Interrail/Eurail Passes on our trains. We will inform you as soon as that changes."
I read elsewhere they're still negotiating with Eurail BV so I hope they will come to an agreement soon.

 

[popeter45]

i dont think we will see thru tickets between european sleeper and eurostar but defintly gonna book a cabin on this for the summer once booking open

 

[D365]

i dont think we will see thru tickets between european sleeper and eurostar but defintly gonna book a cabin on this for the summer once booking open

The Guardian is reporting that Eurostar will offer connecting tickets.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Unlikely, they would need to agree an appropriate discount structure to make the fare competiive eg. £125 one way in a couchette implies c. £30 for Eurostar and £95 to the new operator? And the Grauniad is only musing about the possibility of connecting from Eurostar rather than saying it's a definite.....

 

[Fragezeichnen]

They used to do exactly that with Deutsche Bahn so I don't see why not.

I don't understand the fuss about promoting this as a London - Berlin solution though.
The poor connection times with E* and the trains circuituous route mean that you can actually use a daytime ICE train and still meet the same E* service.

I also have doubts if this tiny company can reliably run whatever old stock they cobbled together six days a week, every week.

 

[StephenHunter]

I did London to Berlin by day trains in 2016 via Brussels and Cologne, but it took me around 12 hours.

Also, this company has RegioJet support.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Even if we committed to rejoining the EU tomorrow, we wouldn't rejoin in 'a few years' time...
Of course, we aren't going to be seeking to rejoin the EU for the next 15 years for political reasons.

And being in Schengen wouldn't solve the Channel Tunnel safety/security regime or the specialised rolling stock issue.
It would just avoid passport/customs checks.
Remember also that outside the EU the EES and ETIAS electronic systems will come in later this year.

 

[Austriantrain]

Unlikely, they would need to agree an appropriate discount structure to make the fare competiive eg. £125 one way in a couchette implies c. £30 for Eurostar and £95 to the new operator?

Airlines routinely offer their flights for much less on connections than on point-to-point trips in order to fill the planes. It’s nothing special and makes economic sense as long as the marginal costs are covered.

Of course, E* might not do it if they think they can fill every seat on their Brussels trains with higher-fare paying point-to-point passengers, but that in itself would be a strong sign of a very unhealthy, strongly oligopolistic market position.

 

[87015]

I did London to Berlin by day trains in 2016 via Brussels and Cologne, but it took me around 12 hours.

Also, this company has RegioJet support.

Is the Regiojet bit confirmed even with the bit into CZ binned? That should make resourcing it, let alone servicing, somewhat complicated.