Sleepers trains from London to Europe.

[popeter45]

Is the Regiojet bit confirmed even with the bit into CZ binned? That should make resourcing it, let alone servicing, somewhat complicated.

CZ bit isn't binned just delayed due to being too late in this timetable period to secure paths

 

[StephenHunter]

CZ bit isn't binned just delayed due to being too late in this timetable period to secure paths

There's engineering work on the Dresden-Prague section limiting paths.

 

[AlbertBeale]

They used to do exactly that with Deutsche Bahn so I don't see why not.

I don't understand the fuss about promoting this as a London - Berlin solution though.
The poor connection times with E* and the trains circuituous route mean that you can actually use a daytime ICE train and still meet the same E* service.

I also have doubts if this tiny company can reliably run whatever old stock they cobbled together six days a week, every week.

Going eastbound London-Berlin, it could make sense to get a train from London to Amsterdam, and pick up the sleeper there, since the London train does the Brussels-Amsterdam leg of the journey faster than the sleeper does. But on current schedules the last Eurostar of the day gets to Amsterdam a bit too late for the sleeper.

 

[DanielB]

The last Eurostar arrives at Amsterdam Central at 21.57 hrs, the European Sleeper night train departs 22.34 hrs. So that would be doable.

Although arriving 2 hours earlier and taking some time for dinner might be a bit more relaxed.

 

[StephenHunter]

The last Eurostar arrives at Amsterdam Central at 21.57 hrs, the European Sleeper night train departs 22.34 hrs. So that would be doable.

Although arriving 2 hours earlier and taking some time for dinner might be a bit more relaxed.

I did that for the Nightjet. Had a walk around the city, had a rather expensive dinner at the restaurant that used to be the First Class lounge.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Going eastbound London-Berlin, it could make sense to get a train from London to Amsterdam, and pick up the sleeper there, since the London train does the Brussels-Amsterdam leg of the journey faster than the sleeper does. But on current schedules the last Eurostar of the day gets to Amsterdam a bit too late for the sleeper.

The last Eurostar arrives at Amsterdam Central at 21.57 hrs, the European Sleeper night train departs 22.34 hrs. So that would be doable.

Although arriving 2 hours earlier and taking some time for dinner might be a bit more relaxed.

But the schedules I've seen show the London train arriving in Amsterdam at 23.11 ...... hence missing the sleeper.

Is this expected to be brought forward?

 

[DanielB]

But the schedules I've seen show the London train arriving in Amsterdam at 23.11 ...... hence missing the sleeper.

Well, I actually scheduled a trip via the Eurostar website resulting in that 21.57 arrival. But for some reason planning again for the same day results in the 23.11 arrival you're mentioning.

 

[30907]

Well, I actually scheduled a trip via the Eurostar website resulting in that 21.57 arrival. But for some reason planning again for the same day results in the 23.11 arrival you're mentioning.

2311 is the regular time, 1804 from London - 2157 would mean an hour start (it is, coincidentally, the arrival time of the evening train TO London).
I certainly wouldn't risk 2311 for 2334 unless I was certain the sleeper would wait.

 

[Flavio Bassi]

I hope that long day and night routes will connect the UK to the continent, as seems to be in the air somewhere. As for the technical problems with the tunnel section, there would be the possibility of a train ferry. The timescale is longer, but if the train is well designed to be comfortable and interesting it might not be a problem at all.

 

[D6130]

I hope that long day and night routes will connect the UK to the continent, as seems to be in the air somewhere. As for the technical problems with the tunnel section, there would be the possibility of a train ferry. The timescale is longer, but if the train is well designed to be comfortable and interesting it might not be a problem at all.

Ciao Flavio! Benvenuto al forum! For many years in the past there were regular train ferry connections between England and France for both passenger and freight services, but they were made redundant by the opening of the Channel Tunnel. I believe that the relevant port infrastucture on both sides of the Channel has been removed since 1994 and it would be extemely expensive to reinstate them for such a small number of overnight passengers. I would prefer the reinstatement of the overnight sleeper and couchette services from Paris - or possibly Brussels - to Milano, Verona, Venezia and Bologna, Firenze and Roma....if a private operator is willing to take the necessary financial risk.

 

[StephenHunter]

Ciao Flavio! Benvenuto al forum! For many years in the past there were regular train ferry connections between England and France for both passenger and freight services, but they were made redundant by the opening of the Channel Tunnel. I believe that the relevant port infrastucture on both sides of the Channel has been removed since 1994 and it would be extemely expensive to reinstate them for such a small number of overnight passengers. I would prefer to the reinstatement of the overnight sleeper and couchette services from Paris - or possibly Brussels - to Milano, Verona, Venezia and Bologna, Firenze and Roma....if a private operator is willing to take the necessary financial risk.

That's what Midnight Trains might end up doing. They have a French tech billionaire backing them IIRC.

 

[Austriantrain]

Ciao Flavio! Benvenuto al forum! For many years in the past there were regular train ferry connections between England and France for both passenger and freight services, but they were made redundant by the opening of the Channel Tunnel. I believe that the relevant port infrastucture on both sides of the Channel has been removed since 1994 and it would be extemely expensive to reinstate them for such a small number of overnight passengers. I would prefer to the reinstatement of the overnight sleeper and couchette services from Paris - or possibly Brussels - to Milano, Verona, Venezia and Bologna, Firenze and Roma....if a private operator is willing to take the necessary financial risk.

One of the problems with (night) trains to Italy are the very specific Italian fire protection rules which are much more onerous than the RIC standard. Those are they main reason ÖBB is buying new stock for day and night services into Italy and also mean that refurbished older stock cannot be used (or at least adapting it to those rules, which in particular include a sprinkler system would be prohibitively expensive).

 

[Flavio Bassi]

Ciao Flavio! Benvenuto al forum! For many years in the past there were regular train ferry connections between England and France for both passenger and freight services, but they were made redundant by the opening of the Channel Tunnel. I believe that the relevant port infrastucture on both sides of the Channel has been removed since 1994 and it would be extemely expensive to reinstate them for such a small number of overnight passengers. I would prefer the reinstatement of the overnight sleeper and couchette services from Paris - or possibly Brussels - to Milano, Verona, Venezia and Bologna, Firenze and Roma....if a private operator is willing to take the necessary financial risk.

Thank you for the benvenuto! Do you mean Paris or Brussels as night trains endpoint, plus daytime connection from UK to Paris/Brussels?

That's what Midnight Trains might end up doing. They have a French tech billionaire backing them IIRC.

I heard about Midnight Trains, and there is also European Sleeper as another new company trying similar projects; I hope they will have success in running their new trains. Another new option will be La Dolce Vita Orient Express, which will probably be the first to launch with several fanciful and interesting routes, but it seems only with luxury cruises.

One of the problems with (night) trains to Italy are the very specific Italian fire protection rules which are much more onerous than the RIC standard. Those are they main reason ÖBB is buying new stock for day and night services into Italy and also mean that refurbished older stock cannot be used (or at least adapting it to those rules, which in particular include a sprinkler system would be prohibitively expensive).

I admire OBB because it's the only one which is taking Italy linked to the continent, sleepers speaking.

----------------------

Surprise! I just checked their website, and European Sleeper will be the first, starting on May 2023, Brussels-Berlin!
Instead La Dolce Vita brochure has already their itinieraries, but they are scheduled in 2024 and it seems only inside Italy. They said they wanted to run internationally... I hope they will do in a future.

 

[AlbertBeale]

One of the problems with (night) trains to Italy are the very specific Italian fire protection rules which are much more onerous than the RIC standard. Those are they main reason ÖBB is buying new stock for day and night services into Italy and also mean that refurbished older stock cannot be used (or at least adapting it to those rules, which in particular include a sprinkler system would be prohibitively expensive).

I thought that the fire protection rules applied specifically to the new tunnels into (and in) Italy? If that's the case, then sleepers running on the old tracks in Italy could still use the existing/refurbished stock - if so the traditional Paris-Italy sleeper could be revived without waiting for more new-build rolling stock.

 

[philg999]

Is the Regiojet bit confirmed even with the bit into CZ binned? That should make resourcing it, let alone servicing, somewhat complicated.

An article on a Dutch website a few weeks ago (which I can’t find now) said that Regiojet are not involved with the venture at this stage.

 

[rvdborgt]

An article on a Dutch website a few weeks ago (which I can’t find now) said that Regiojet are not involved with the venture at this stage.

There you go:

Nachttrein Brussel - Amsterdam - Berlijn start op 25 mei 2023

De nachttrein Brussel - Amsterdam - Berlijn van European Sleeper gaat vanaf donderdag 25 mei drie keer in de week rijden. De eerste rit zal zijn vanaf Berl

www.treinreiziger.nl

 

[Austriantrain]

I thought that the fire protection rules applied specifically to the new tunnels into (and in) Italy? If that's the case, then sleepers running on the old tracks in Italy could still use the existing/refurbished stock - if so the traditional Paris-Italy sleeper could be revived without waiting for more new-build rolling stock.

No, it’s a general rule that has nothing to do with the tunnels, which are (until the Brenner tunnel opens) all outside of Italy anyway. Grandfather rights have a sunset clause to them, and while that keeps being extended (mainly so not to stop traffic to Austria, where only the RJ sets in service from Vienna to Venice and Bozen conform to the new rules), it will „bite“ at some point.

——-

Sometimes within the next two years NightJet should also reintroduce Brussels and Paris to Berlin services, so that should give even more travel options. And Vienna services should then run daily.

 

[StephenHunter]

There is also an issue with the lack of control cars on the existing stock, I believe.

 

[D6130]

Thank you for the benvenuto! Do you mean Paris or Brussels as night trains endpoint, plus daytime connection from UK to Paris/Brussels?

Yes. Until its withdrawal due to the pandemic, the Thello overnight service from Paris to Venezia could be conveniently connected into from our house in the North of England by LNER and Eurostar....although it was even more convenient for our house in Italy when it - or its Trenitalia predecessor - also ran from Paris to Firenze and Roma. My hope is that, at some stage, a sleeper service from Northern Europe to Italy may be introduced by a private open-access operator (or even by OeBB) but, given that Brussels seems to be becoming the new Northern European sleeper hub, it may run from there instead of Paris. From the point of view of travellers coming from the UK, that may be more convenient, as it would involve a simple change of trains in the same station, instead of having to cross Paris on the crowded RER from Gare du Nord to Gare de Lyon.

 

[Austriantrain]

There is also an issue with the lack of control cars on the existing stock, I believe.

It’s not yet a huge problem - but apparently it is the reason the Milan sleeper had to serve Porta Garibaldi instead of Centrale even before the extension to La Spezia - but in the middle to long term, there is a risk non-reversible train sets will not be allowed into Santa Lucia, Santa Maria Novella and Roma Termini anymore.

So the control car is future-proofing really.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

In the mid 1990s we travelled in different years by sleeping car on both the Brussels to Venice and the Rome to Brussels services. In both cases there was just one sleeping car in the formation (this might have varied by season although we were travelling in summer), plus couchettes and seating coaches. I do not recall either train being particularly large by the standards of the time. By way of contrast in the same era Paris was dispatching five trains every night to Italian destinations - six in summer - with three of these conveying only sleeping cars (in all cases more than one) and couchettes, the other two/three trains also conveyed seating accommodation. On yet another Italian holiday we joined the Rome to Paris at Pisa, four sleeping cars and nine couchettes.

From this I deduce the market between Paris and Italy was much larger than that from Brussels, and the latter would include passengers from Luxembourg, Metz and Strasbourg, and although around this time Brussels did have a third summer dated train this only ran at weekends.

Whilst acknowledging for Eurostar connections Brussels is more attractive to the British market as an interchange point, my own view is for an operator who can procure suitable rolling stock and a business case that stacks up (Midnight Trains?) Paris to Italy is more realistic as a fairly early start up than Brussels to Italy, perhaps initially a combined Rome and Venice service and hopefully developing from there with in years to come with perhaps a Brussels combined Rome and Venice service following in due course.

Wishful thinking perhaps, we shall have to wait and see.

 

[StephenHunter]

That's been the case for decades. The Summer 1965 CIWL timetable has:

• 6 London-Paris sleepers and 1 London-Brussels on the Night Ferry (the latter might have gone to Schaerbeek, the depot there now being the Belgian national museum)
• 12 Paris-Ventimiglia on the Train Bleu, with no less than six LX16s and an LX20
• 4 Paris-Milan on the Lombardie-Express, although one LX16 was summer only
• Orient-Express had just one Paris-Bucharest, three times a week.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

That's been the case for decades. The Summer 1965 CIWL timetable has:

• 6 London-Paris sleepers and 1 London-Brussels on the Night Ferry (the latter might have gone to Schaerbeek, the depot there now being the Belgian national museum)
• 12 Paris-Ventimiglia on the Train Bleu, with no less than six LX16s and an LX20
• 4 Paris-Milan on the Lombardie-Express, although one LX16 was summer only
• Orient-Express had just one Paris-Bucharest, three times a week.

Interesting,

Does your trusty CIWL timetable list anything from Paris to Rome in that era, or from Brussels to anywhere in Italy?

 

[StephenHunter]

Interesting,

Does your trusty CIWL timetable list anything from Paris to Rome in that era, or from Brussels to anywhere in Italy?

• Three Paris-Rome on the Rome-Express, one July to August only
• One Paris-Rome on the Simplon-Express
• One Brussels-Ventimiglia
• A Brussels-Milan branch of the Riveria Express with two sleepers. That may had a Motorail component

The timetable does not list couchettes. "This is the International Sleeping Car and Great European Express Company, ma'am. We do not do couchettes".

 

[30907]

Sometimes within the next two years NightJet should also reintroduce Brussels and Paris to Berlin services, so that should give even more travel options. And Vienna services should then run daily.

Confirmed today (by Seat61 for example) that these are intended for Dec 2023, with the Vienna services going daily as well.
All they need is the new sets on one of the Italian service groups...

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Confirmed today (by Seat61 for example) that these are intended for Dec 2023, with the Vienna services going daily as well.
All they need is the new sets on one of the Italian service groups...

That is good news but worth noting all of the Italian services operate with 'short' half sets 5,4 or 3 vehicles) so it is not as simple as switching over one of the Italian service groups.

https://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/razeni.php?zeme=OeBB&kategorie=NJ&rok=2023
shows the current vehicle numbers on each service group which, taking into account two sets operate each night (one each way), comes to totals of Vienna/Munich to Rome/La Spezia 8 sleepers, 12 couchettes and 14 seated, and for Vienna/Stuttgart to Venice just 4 sleepers, 4 couchettes and 6 seated.

The alternate night Vienna to Paris and Brussels convey respectively 2 sleepers 3 couchettes and 2 seated, and 1 sleeper, 2 couchettes and 1 seated so to simply double that to run every day and add the same from Berlin every day would take the total requirement (including the listed alternate night 3 sleepers 5 couchettes and 3 seated) to 12 sleepers 20 couchettes and 12 seated, a net increase of respectively 9 sleepers, 15 couchettes and 9 seated. OK Berlin might start up with less capacity than Vienna but on the other side of the coin there could be a desire to increase the Brussels section from Vienna, and once Brussels is removed from the Amsterdam/Hamburg train also to provide additional capacity to either or both destinations.

So unless my calculations have gone awry somewhere on the face of it it would be essential for all of the Italian services to switch over in order to release sufficient vehicles to provide the step up in the services from Vienna and add Berlin to the network for Paris and Brussels.

 

[30907]

That is good news but worth noting all of the Italian services operate with 'short' half sets %,4 or 3 vehicles) so it is not as simple as switching over one of the Italian service groups.

https://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/razeni.php?zeme=OeBB&kategorie=NJ&rok=2023
shows the current vehicle numbers on each service group which, taking into account two sets operate each night (one each way), comes to totals of Vienna/Munich to Rome/La Spezia 8 sleepers, 12 couchettes and 14 seated, and for Vienna/Stuttgart to Venice just 4 sleepers, 4 couchettes and 6 seated.

The alternate night Vienna to Paris and Brussels convey respectively 2 sleepers 3 couchettes and 2 seated, and 1 sleeper, 2 couchettes and 1 seated so to simply double that to run every day and add the same from Berlin every day would take the total requirement (including the listed alternate night 3 sleepers 5 couchettes and 3 seated) to 12 sleepers 20 couchettes and 12 seated, a net increase of respectively 9 sleepers, 15 couchettes and 9 seated. OK Berlin might start up with less capacity than Vienna but on the other side of the coin there could be a desire to increase the Brussels section from Vienna, and once Brussels is removed from the Amsterdam/Hamburg train also to provide additional capacity to either or both destinations.

Thanks for the detail workings.

Yes, you can't simply nearly quadruple the capacity overnight, but I don't think you'd need to do that immediately; certainly Berlin-Paris won't justfy 2 sleepers a night, so I suggest the immediate requirement will be +7 sleepers.
There is also some slack in the fleet of 42 Comfortline cars, and OeBB are I believe converting some existing stock to Couchettes (because the existing ones are pretty ancient AIUI).

Next up I imagine they will want to replace the vintage sleepers on Zurich-Amsterdam, so another 4 cars needed there.

There is also the planned Zurich-Rome (was also Dec 2023, but that may have slipped?), but that will need the new stock anyway - and the Zurich-Barcelona.

By that stage there will be plenty of the new sets in service, and it will be time to replace the 8 double-deckers.... (shame!).

 

[StephenHunter]

OeBB have already converted some surplus seating carriages to couchettes - they demonstrated one for the press back in September 2021 in Salzburg. Those have Wi-Fi in them, which the rest of the current fleet doesn't have.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

It all sounds very encouraging - and I have now edited the erroneous '%' in post 146 to read '5'!

 

[Austriantrain]

That is good news but worth noting all of the Italian services operate with 'short' half sets 5,4 or 3 vehicles) so it is not as simple as switching over one of the Italian service groups.

https://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/razeni.php?zeme=OeBB&kategorie=NJ&rok=2023
shows the current vehicle numbers on each service group which, taking into account two sets operate each night (one each way), comes to totals of Vienna/Munich to Rome/La Spezia 8 sleepers, 12 couchettes and 14 seated, and for Vienna/Stuttgart to Venice just 4 sleepers, 4 couchettes and 6 seated.

The alternate night Vienna to Paris and Brussels convey respectively 2 sleepers 3 couchettes and 2 seated, and 1 sleeper, 2 couchettes and 1 seated so to simply double that to run every day and add the same from Berlin every day would take the total requirement (including the listed alternate night 3 sleepers 5 couchettes and 3 seated) to 12 sleepers 20 couchettes and 12 seated, a net increase of respectively 9 sleepers, 15 couchettes and 9 seated. OK Berlin might start up with less capacity than Vienna but on the other side of the coin there could be a desire to increase the Brussels section from Vienna, and once Brussels is removed from the Amsterdam/Hamburg train also to provide additional capacity to either or both destinations.

So unless my calculations have gone awry somewhere on the face of it it would be essential for all of the Italian services to switch over in order to release sufficient vehicles to provide the step up in the services from Vienna and add Berlin to the network for Paris and Brussels.

Once the new NJ sets get approval, it is certainly the plan for all Italy services to switch over as fast as possible, for the regulatory reasons I have pointed out upthread, and to free the old sets for the planned new and increased services.

As to Amsterdam, Zurich etc with the new sets, these will have to wait until the second series of new NJ are delivered. I would be surprised if these changed over before 2024.