South Wales 'Metro' updates

[GRALISTAIR]

My bold

Not the first time that I have seen this erroneous rubbish posted - the 2019 deadline came from the DDA which is UK legislation and absolutely nothing to do with the EU...

Thank you for stating facts and calling out the erroneous rubbish.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Many thanks for the correction. I had always read reference to the fact that it was an EU requirement. So, where does that leave the Valley lines now - with nothing ordered and the likelihood that the Pacers will still be in service? How much will it cost to modify each Pacer to make it compliant?

They'll make the Class 150 units DDA compliant and derogate the Pacers provided they've got a plan with stock on order, I'd guess.

 

[BantamMenace]

The option put forward by Network Rail in the Wales RUS is for platform extensions to accommodate 6 x 23m vehicles in 3 vehicle formations - essentially Class 323 clones.

The Valley Lines electrification scheme was designed very much on the basis of the Birmingham Cross City scheme with traffic travelling through a central core section (in this case Cardiff Queen Street-Cardiff Central) and then continuing to other destinations, including some where they may be working alongside intercity services (in the case of the Vale of Glamorgan route to Bridgend) and freight services (such as the services to Cwmbargoed Opencast Colliery).

Was this costed and does it mean every single platform to at least 138m?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Was this costed and does it mean every single platform to at least 138m?

Indicative costs of £15m to £35m. Coryton and Cardiff Bay branches only capable of 4 x 23m but every other platform is to be capable of 6 x 23m.

 

[Brian Aylott]

They'll make the Class 150 units DDA compliant and derogate the Pacers provided they've got a plan with stock on order, I'd guess.

As far as I'm aware it is the ROSCOs who are responsible for seeing that their stock is DDA compliant if it is to remain in traffic after 2019
One of the major costs/problems is the fitting of the Universal toilets - one way to get round this is to remove the toilets but I wouldn't expect the Cardiff Valley users to be happy with this solution - although it would allow an increase instead of a decrease in seating capacity
Brian

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One of the major costs/problems is the fitting of the Universal toilets - one way to get round this is to remove the toilets but I wouldn't expect the Cardiff Valley users to be happy with this solution - although it would allow an increase instead of a decrease in seating capacity
Brian

Merseyrail doesn't bother with toilets, for journeys which can be up to an hour (not fitted on 507/508s).
Toilets don't even figure in the list of passenger wants from the new stock, although Merseyrail does provide toilets at at least some stations.

 

[gareth950]

Merseyrail doesn't bother with toilets, for journeys which can be up to an hour (not fitted on 507/508s).
Toilets don't even figure in the list of passenger wants from the new stock, although Merseyrail does provide toilets at at least some stations.

There are still people on the valley lines who would rather travel toilet class between unstaffed stations. :roll:

And if Tram-trains or trams are adopted eventually, there won't be toilets on those will there? So might as well remove toilets for 2020, especially from the Pacers.

 

[PHILIPE]

As far as I'm aware it is the ROSCOs who are responsible for seeing that their stock is DDA compliant if it is to remain in traffic after 2019
One of the major costs/problems is the fitting of the Universal toilets - one way to get round this is to remove the toilets but I wouldn't expect the Cardiff Valley users to be happy with this solution - although it would allow an increase instead of a decrease in seating capacity
Brian

We had to put up without toilets on the Cardiff Valleys with first generation DMUs before the arrival of Sprinters in 1987

 

[HowardGWR]

We had to put up without toilets on the Cardiff Valleys with first generation DMUs before the arrival of Sprinters in 1987

The GWR B sets didn't have them either.

 

[gareth950]

The dates when the Pacers in service with Northern will be released have been published as part of the Northern franchise agreement by the government:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/537465/northern-franchise-agreement.pdf (pages 147 - 148)

Class 142 release profile
10 vehicles released 10.11.2018
38 vehicles released 08.12.2018
18 vehicles released 05.1.2019
20 vehicles released 02.2.2019
16 vehicles released 02.3.2019
2 vehicles released 31.3.2019
10 vehicles released 27.4.2019
4 vehicles released 25.5.2019
12 vehicles released 22.6.2019
8 vehicles released 20.7.2019
8 vehicles released 17.8.2019
8 vehicles released 14.9.2019
4 vehicles released 12.10.2019
(Total vehicles released: 158)

Class 144 (2-car) release profile
10 vehicles released 15.9.2018
4 vehicles released 13.10.2018
8 vehicles released 10.11.2018
4 vehicles released 5.1.2019
(Total vehicles released: 26)

Class 144 (3-car) release
The intention of the Franchisee is that these units will be released on 31 March 2019.

Also, the FGW franchise agreement from last year has GWRs 143s and 153s as going off lease May - July 2017.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...a/file/486668/red-fgw-franchise-agreement.pdf (pages 143 & 144)

Should the WG be telling Angel and Porterbrook now that it wants the 143s and 144s when they become available, and possibly even the 142s to cover for 143s and 144s whilst they are away having DDA mods, to prevent a real capacity crisis on the Valley lines in 2018 - 2020?

 

[Wolfie]

The dates when the Pacers in service with Northern will be released have been published as part of the Northern franchise agreement by the government:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/537465/northern-franchise-agreement.pdf (pages 147 - 148)

Class 142 release profile
10 vehicles released 10.11.2018
38 vehicles released 08.12.2018
18 vehicles released 05.1.2019
20 vehicles released 02.2.2019
16 vehicles released 02.3.2019
2 vehicles released 31.3.2019
10 vehicles released 27.4.2019
4 vehicles released 25.5.2019
12 vehicles released 22.6.2019
8 vehicles released 20.7.2019
8 vehicles released 17.8.2019
8 vehicles released 14.9.2019
4 vehicles released 12.10.2019
(Total vehicles released: 158)

Class 144 (2-car) release profile
10 vehicles released 15.9.2018
4 vehicles released 13.10.2018
8 vehicles released 10.11.2018
4 vehicles released 5.1.2019
(Total vehicles released: 26)

Class 144 (3-car) release
The intention of the Franchisee is that these units will be released on 31 March 2019.

Also, the FGW franchise agreement from last year has GWRs 143s and 153s as going off lease May - July 2017.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...a/file/486668/red-fgw-franchise-agreement.pdf (pages 143 & 144)

Should the WG be telling Angel and Porterbrook now that it wants the 143s and 144s when they become available, and possibly even the 142s to cover for 143s and 144s whilst they are away having DDA mods, to prevent a real capacity crisis on the Valley lines in 2018 - 2020?

If the WG has the money, can get a 2 year derogation from DfT for the 142s and they are still fit to run (both Northern users and Angel semi-officially have suggested that they are not exactly in the finest state of repair) that would seem very sensible. I doubt that Welsh travellers will be overly impressed to be foisted with stock officially labelled/rejected as too low quality/poor for the North of England though... The alternative, which equally would be branded as "hand-downs", is Class 230/D trains....

Of course the danger is that, particularly once DDA modifications have been done, electrification slips still further.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Should the WG be telling Angel and Porterbrook now that it wants the 143s and 144s when they become available, and possibly even the 142s to cover for 143s and 144s whilst they are away having DDA mods, to prevent a real capacity crisis on the Valley lines in 2018 - 2020?

Yes, but not if it can be avoided - the Welsh Government would have to pay the entire cost of the DDA modifications on these units - they've got nowhere to go to when the Valley Lines are either electrified or conversion to a tram-way completes, so the ROSCOs aren't going to submit an offer which includes full DDA compliance without covering that DDA compliance fully within the first years of the lease.

Their only hope is to get all the Class 150 units compliant and to derogate for the remaining Class 142 and Class 143 units, perhaps allowing them only to operate in multiple with a Class 150 which has full DDA modifications - that gives 30 4 vehicle formations with 6 Class 150 units available to work on their own.

The other option, which won't be popular, is to focus on electrification of one route out of Cardiff, perhaps focusing on the Cardiff Queen Street to Rhymney Line first, with the line closing (as per the Gospel Oak to Barking Line) for 6 or 9 months for 24/7 high intensity work. The first section works would be to get the route re-opened as far as Caerphilly, with electric stock operating the route, afterwards a staged re-opening north to Rhymney follows.

Closure of the line releases sufficient units meeting DDA requirements to still allow the Class 142/143 fleet to be withdrawn, or to operate with very strict and limited derogations, subject to some timetabling adjustments etc.

It needs the Welsh Government to make a decision on heavy rail or metro nonsense soon, it needs work to get going sooner rather than later on route clearance.

 

[PHILIPE]

The problem of overcrowding still won't go away as any Pacers could only work local trains, agree some more use could be made on Cardiff Valleys as there is overcrowding there. They could more or less replace 150s on local lines so there would still be a problem on the long distance routes worked by 175s and 158s.

 

[gareth950]

Ï

Yes, but not if it can be avoided - the Welsh Government would have to pay the entire cost of the DDA modifications on these units - they've got nowhere to go to when the Valley Lines are either electrified or conversion to a tram-way completes, so the ROSCOs aren't going to submit an offer which includes full DDA compliance without covering that DDA compliance fully within the first years of the lease.

So if derogations for say 5 years from 2018 - 2023, (to 2025 maximum) can be given to the 143, 144 and 153 fleet nationally, then the best option is when the units become available, just put them into service on the valleys immediately, possibly with a quick re-paint and interior refresh first (e.g. take out bus seats and replace with 2 + 2 seating and a deep clean)? No need to take on any 142s then.

This way, ATW would have extra stock as soon as next summer, providing GWR do release their 143s and 153s then.

If the WG has the money, can get a 2 year derogation from DfT for the 142s and they are still fit to run (both Northern users and Angel semi-officially have suggested that they are not exactly in the finest state of repair) that would seem very sensible. I doubt that Welsh travellers will be overly impressed to be foisted with stock officially labelled/rejected as too low quality/poor for the North of England though... The alternative, which equally would be branded as "hand-downs", is Class 230/D trains....

According to posts I've read on this forum, the ATW 142s are apparently in a 'good' state with their 2+2 seating compared to the Northern 142s, so Northern's must be in a dire state!
I never expected, ever to be suggesting on this board that the valley lines takes some 142s from elsewhere for extra capacity, but overcrowding on the VL really is unsustainable and desperate.
Look at the ATW twitter feed - passengers just want extra capacity and they want it now! I doubt initially at least that passengers would care about getting second hand trains.
So the WG and ATW should be taking full advantage of picking up stock going off lease from next summer.

It needs the Welsh Government to make a decision on heavy rail or metro nonsense soon, it needs work to get going sooner rather than later on route clearance.

I totally agree. As much as a light rail solution would be great for the VL network (I was recently in London on the DLR and was amazed at the efficiency and frequency of it all) I just can't see it being workable without banning freight from the whole VL network. Plus as I've mentioned, the recently renewed HR signalling infrastructure is already in place.

Ironically, this has become an area where devolution has NOT helped Wales and has just overly complicated matters. If just the DFT and Westminster was in charge, perhaps straightforward overhead line electrification would have been given the go-ahead, with all the plans now in place, and the valleys would now just be waiting to be electrified at the same time as NR are in the area and electrifying the route to Swansea by 2024.

However, it does seem that the WG just want a tramway conversion to play with that they can take complete control of and call their own.

 

[Parallel]

I definitely think WG/ATW need to take on the pacers as a short term measure. ATW's 142s need a good clean but their interiors aren't dissimilar to that of the 143s with the 2+2 Chapman style seats. Most valley lines have stops every 3-5 minutes and pacers are ideal for this with their quick acceleration. Capacity is definitely an issue on the lines, and there are frequent short forms when units get pinched for other services. I think the 143s and 144s should be made DDA compliant and used on the local Cardiff routes as they are close to Canton depot (for maintenance), are fairly suited to the routes, can work in multiple with other 14x and 15x classes and the crew are already trained up to operate them (though I'm not sure how different 143s and 144s would be to operate).

I see pacers as far more viable and financially economic to run than D-stock, in the short term.

 

[MarkyT]

Although 230s have potential to be more comfortable and less noisy than pacers, the challenge is they are an unknown quantity with their novel diesel electric drive system. At least pacers of all flavours are a well known quantity for local depot staff. If the D-train trial in the midlands proves outstandingly successful however, the situation may change of course.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Here's what the Western Mail said about the plans yesterday:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/5bn-bid-process-build-south-11666082

It's too long to cut and paste - sorry!

 

[doubletrackemble]

There's a new version of the indicative S Wales Metro map on that site (I notice some stops in the NE of Cardiff are no longer shown), but still very little detail, other than talking about electrification.

What exactly is going to run on those parts of the network that do not already have rail links (e.g. Porthcawl-Bridgend, Pontyclun-Radyr via Creigiau, and Pontypool-Newbridge). Is the assumption that all of these will be 'rapid bus services'.

Are the bid documents available to read?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So Keolis-Amey are interested, also MTR, whose bid will be fronted by Mike Bagshaw, late of ATW.
But we still don't know what the specification is, of either the Metro or the W&B franchise.
The bid documents are only available to the bidders.

 

[Envoy]

There's a new version of the indicative S Wales Metro map on that site (I notice some stops in the NE of Cardiff are no longer shown), but still very little detail, other than talking about electrification.

What exactly is going to run on those parts of the network that do not already have rail links (e.g. Porthcawl-Bridgend, Pontyclun-Radyr via Creigiau, and Pontypool-Newbridge). Is the assumption that all of these will be 'rapid bus services'.

Are the bid documents available to read?

Cardiff Council’s LDP - which has been ‘passed’ by the Welsh Government appointed ‘Independent’ Planning Inspector, indicates plans to build on most of the countryside between Pentrebane/Radyr & Cregiau. Some think that the former railway between Fairwater & Cregiau and perhaps on to Beddau will be re-built to serve all of this development. If they can’t even get on with electrifying the present network, I really think that this is now looking to be a more remote possibility. Anyway, the plans allow for so called ‘rapid’ transit buses going from these new developments to the city centre via Llandaff / Fairwater/Canton. Goodness knows how you could have rapid transit bus routes through such a congested area? The plans state that cars will face deliberate delaying tactics in order to try and induce people to use buses instead. Of course, what they fail to realise is that not all of these cars are going from suburbs to the city centre.

Cardiff Council also propose to have a Park & Ride on the north side of M4 J33 - the idea being that motorists will leave their cars and take buses to the city centre via Ely and Cowbridge Road - which seems to be a pretty daft idea. A Business Park is also planned on the north side of J33. All this is of course at the very point where traffic from the west coming off the M4 and taking the A4232 has to cross that coming off the A4232 and heading M4 eastbound. So, if you think the jams at this junction are already bad enough, they will be even worse when this happens. (Clearly a flyover is needed). So the WG permit development that will screw up the M4/A4232 in NW Cardiff yet have to spend money to sort out the situation at Newport where the M4 is constricted by the 2 lane tunnel! Hmmm...

Regarding Pontypool: I note that access to Pontypool Road rail station from the expressway is not exactly easy/straightforward. As well as Pontypool and the valley to Bleanavon, this would be the nearest railhead for Usk. If they wish to reduce traffic, they could get on sorting this out now. I also think that buses should go from Cwmbran station to Pontypool and then up the valley to Blaenavon to terminate at Big Pit. (They pass near Cwmbran station and don’t go all the way to Bg Pit).

 

[Solaris]

Why don't you read the details here.....?

http://gov.wales/topics/transport/public/metro/?lang=en

Its the most up to date material in the public domain before the contract note was published a couple of weeks ago...

 

[gareth950]

While each bidder will outline what type of rolling stock will run across the network in their respective bids, many industry experts anticipate that for the core Valley Lines a tram solution will emerge.

So the Wales Online article still doesn't give any details of any plans (if there are any) that the WG has to deal with the diesel stock crisis that is hitting Wales NOW. Will the WG pick up Pacers and 153s from GWR and Northern as they go off lease?
Will the bidders be compelled to take on additional cascaded diesel rolling stock in the first months of the new franchise to bring immediate relief to overcrowding on the Wales and Borders network?

If the line of "it's up to the new franchise bidders to specify rolling stock they will use" and "it's up to ATW to manage the current franchise's rolling stock to October 2018" continues to be taken, no extra relief stock will be forthcoming.

(I know that Northern also has a DMU shortage, but at least there are plans in place to deal with it there. Wales must be the only part of the UK now that doesn't have any immediate plan to deal with it's DMU shortage)

The timescale for the project has already slipped back. The WG mini-site quoted by Solaris has the timescale of electrification of the 'core Valley lines' as 2017 - 2023, however the Wales Online article now has Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates, as saying:

“Construction will take place from 2019 with services operating as soon as possible."

So that's a 2025 completion date at the earliest, unless lines are individually blockaded off to get work done ASAP. Unlike the Gospel Oak to Barking line blockade in London however, if one of the valley lines is blocked off, there aren't numerous other public transport options for commuters, so I can't see blocakdes happening unless things get extremely desperate (although weekend blockades could be a possibility).

 

[Envoy]

So the Wales Online article still doesn't give any details of any plans (if there are any) that the WG has to deal with the diesel stock crisis that is hitting Wales NOW. Will the WG pick up Pacers and 153s from GWR and Northern as they go off lease?
Will the bidders be compelled to take on additional cascaded diesel rolling stock in the first months of the new franchise to bring immediate relief to overcrowding on the Wales and Borders network?

If the line of "it's up to the new franchise bidders to specify rolling stock they will use" and "it's up to ATW to manage the current franchise's rolling stock to October 2018" continues to be taken, no extra relief stock will be forthcoming.

(I know that Northern also has a DMU shortage, but at least there are plans in place to deal with it there. Wales must be the only part of the UK now that doesn't have any immediate plan to deal with it's DMU shortage)

The timescale for the project has already slipped back. The WG mini-site quoted by Solaris has the timescale of electrification of the 'core Valley lines' as 2017 - 2023, however the Wales Online article now has Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates, as saying:

“Construction will take place from 2019 with services operating as soon as possible."

So that's a 2025 completion date at the earliest, unless lines are individually blockaded off to get work done ASAP. Unlike the Gospel Oak to Barking line blockade in London however, if one of the valley lines is blocked off, there aren't numerous other public transport options for commuters, so I can't see blocakdes happening unless things get extremely desperate (although weekend blockades could be a possibility).

Yes, the Welsh Trains operated by ATW are in crises NOW and it appears that the Welsh Government appear to be doing nothing about the situation.
Here is another post about a cancelled service from Manchester:>
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=133343

I note that Southern have managed to get hold of 100mph Turbostars from Scotrail. Surely, ATW were more in need of such stock?
http://www.southernrailway.com/mobile/news/first-10-carriage-train-runs-on-the-uckfield-line/

 

[edwin_m]

I note that Southern have managed to get hold of 100mph Turbostars from Scotrail. Surely, ATW were more in need of such stock?

Maybe so. But new trains for Southern were either revenue-positive or already in their franchise plan, so they were able to snap them up as soon as they became available. Similarly for the TPE Turbostars taken up by Chiltern which caused various problems in the North.

The economics of ATW is such that if they had more units their costs would rise, and as is well known there was no such provision in their franchise. By the time they had negotiated extra payment from Welsh government someone else would probably have grabbed any units that were to have become available.

 

[Envoy]

Maybe so. But new trains for Southern were either revenue-positive or already in their franchise plan, so they were able to snap them up as soon as they became available. Similarly for the TPE Turbostars taken up by Chiltern which caused various problems in the North.

The economics of ATW is such that if they had more units their costs would rise, and as is well known there was no such provision in their franchise. By the time they had negotiated extra payment from Welsh government someone else would probably have grabbed any units that were to have become available.

My understanding is that anyone in south Wales who puts in for a journey to anywhere north of Crewe on the WCML - including anywhere in Scotland, that the fare is set by Cross Country. Does this mean that Arriva’s sister company (XC) get the revenue? If so, do we have a situation where passengers are using the shortest/fastest route (via ATW’s Marches Line) for such destinations yet ATW do not get the revenue? Should that be so, then clearly the Welsh Government would be having to hand out subsidies to a company (ATW) who are deprived of such revenue yet their sister company(XC) - who the passengers do not use - gets the revenue?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

My understanding is that anyone in south Wales who puts in for a journey to anywhere north of Crewe on the WCML - including anywhere in Scotland, that the fare is set by Cross Country. Does this mean that Arriva’s sister company (XC) get the revenue? If so, do we have a situation where passengers are using the shortest/fastest route (via ATW’s Marches Line) for such destinations yet ATW do not get the revenue? Should that be so, then clearly the Welsh Government would be having to hand out subsidies to a company (ATW) who are deprived of such revenue yet their sister company(XC) - who the passengers do not use - gets the revenue?

The fare will be set by CrossCountry, but the revenue is allocated using the ORCATS system which divides total revenue up by capacity provided by each TOC, less TOC exclusive revenue such as XC Only AP tickets.

ATW will receive the appropriate share of the revenue for the services and capacity it provides.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I note that Southern have managed to get hold of 100mph Turbostars from Scotrail. Surely, ATW were more in need of such stock?

The situation is further complicated by ATW's fleet - the Class 175 units are incompatible with all but the Class 180 units, and the Class 158 fleet has the ERTMS fitment and Cambrian Line operational requirements to take into account.

ATW gaining Turbostar stock would only be of limited usefulness given the multiple working constraints. Turbostar stock is also quite different to anything else ATW maintains in-house, you need a sensible fleet size to get anything like decent mileage per casualty figures.

ATW would find life much easier if they could procure the Class 180 units, returning them to full mechanical and electrical compatibility with the Class 175 units, and maintaining them through Alstom Traincare as with their Class 175 fleet.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes, the Welsh Trains operated by ATW are in crises NOW and it appears that the Welsh Government appear to be doing nothing about the situation.
I note that Southern have managed to get hold of 100mph Turbostars from Scotrail. Surely, ATW were more in need of such stock?
http://www.southernrailway.com/mobile/news/first-10-carriage-train-runs-on-the-uckfield-line/

W&B (ATW) are in the same cleft stick that Northern was in before the recent franchise award.
There is no way, or will, to vary the expiring franchise agreement because it will cost either DfT or WG (or both) money which is not in their budgets.
There is also no agreement on the shape and size of the replacement franchise, or the split between Westminster and Cardiff.

You have seen the procurement exercise the WG has just started for the Metro and the franchise.
WG and DfT have to shake hands on some devolution deal before anything can happen.
October 2018 is the date for the new W&B franchise to start.
A refurbishment deal (for DDA compliance) is about all we can expect before then.

 

[hwl]

Maybe so. But new trains for Southern were either revenue-positive or already in their franchise plan, so they were able to snap them up as soon as they became available. Similarly for the TPE Turbostars taken up by Chiltern which caused various problems in the North.

The economics of ATW is such that if they had more units their costs would rise, and as is well known there was no such provision in their franchise. By the time they had negotiated extra payment from Welsh government someone else would probably have grabbed any units that were to have become available.

Both revenue positive and in the franchise plan. In the worst case it is easy to fill an extra 6 cars /hr between London Bridge and East Croydon even if there is no extra demand on the unelectrified section (which there is). Apparently standing room only long before they get to the 3rd rail section on the new longer 10 car services already this week.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks for this morning’s responses. So, it would be best if 180’s could be added to what is now the ATW franchise and Southern certainly needed the Turbostars from Scotland.

 

[anthony263]

There are facebook reports this morning of passengers being forced to stand in the toilets of atw's services.

I agree extra stock is required as a matter or urgency. I suspect we will at least see GWR's class 143's and perhaps some of the class 153's which may help for a little while.

I think the existing franchise with no growth is part of the problem so sooner we get a new franchise and everyone such as the toc. WG etc get their act together the better