SouthEastern fleet replacement updates

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can we just take a moment to realise I did not specify urine on the floor as the only issue.

Collapsed seats, regularly defective PIS, clumsy slamming external doors and under sensitive doors are also major clues that hint at the knackered condition of the trains, and the lack of air conditioning is obviously an issue.

 

[43066]

That sounds more like a cleaning issue? or possibly a vandalism and enforcement issue

It’s isn’t so much vandalism. It’s just your standard case of Sharon and Wayne having a few too many shandies of a evening, and soiling themselves when they’re en route back to Dartford or Petts Wood from a night out “up London”. Vomiting and urinating on the floor is par for the course.

I personally have never found the 376s or 700s on the same route to be anywhere near as bad, nor SN 377s or 455s on similarly ”dodgy” routes.

The 376s are arguably in a worse state than the Networkers these days. They’ve been completely untouched since circa 2005 when they were introduced. The Networkers have (believe it or not) been “refreshed” at various points.

 

[brad465]

Not sure. I think if you told SE passengers that Networkers were going, you'd probably need a mop and bucket to clean up the mess.... The tears of joy would be flooding the station concourse.

A mop and bucket won't be hard to find, as presumably on a late shift they're needed to clean up 376s from passengers "going" in the interiors

Which is whay I say that the DfT and SE are idiots. Passenger consultation is essential when introducing new fleets. Granted the 376s didn't go down well with passengers after their consultations but hopefully lessens were learned. A new fleet is the perfect opportunity to bring passenger and TOC together.

Depending on how things are politically and economically in 2024, any change in Government might deliver this sort of change, but it's definitely not happening before then.

Why is the UK obsessed with history and nostalgia. Bin them, start fresh, build for the future. The railway is so backward in their thinking that they never look forward.

I suspect that, while history and nostalgia have a part to play, cost is the biggest factor. Even where savings can be made long term, hardly anyone seems to be able to see past the upfront investment costs, and where they do it's politically toxic and hard to change perception (HS2 and Crossrail being prime examples).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Ah, but in the original re franchise spec it wasn’t “just money”, as there was a quality element to franchise bids, which is why we have GA with an entirely new fleet and WMT with lots of new trains replacing many that aren’t *that* old.

That will have gone now, and it will all be about reducing subsidy, which in reality can only mean reducing operating costs - substantially.

Then i can't see a new fleet is going to that as even a leased fleet is going to cost more now with cost of capital up 3 to 4 times the last decades almost zero interest rate levels and thats before you have the inflationary impact of building said fleet. Is this another example of trying to squeeze the existing lessors to sharpen their pencils.

 

[Roast Veg]

These will be a big deal for SE and have been needed for a very long time. Battery pack flirts would be the nicest choice for the outer suburban market but I can't see them meeting the standing and circulation requirements.

Wise to adopt the 700 style of 2+2 with wide aisles, that should make them much more versatile than the 376s and 707s currently are.

It would be good to see Eastbourne to Ashford services handed over to these as well, but it doesn't look like there will be enough units to do that.

 

[43066]

Battery pack flirts would be the nicest choice for the outer suburban market but I can't see them meeting the standing and circulation requirements.

Why do you say that? The entire SE route network is electrified.

It would be good to see Eastbourne to Ashford services handed over to these as well, but it doesn't look like there will be enough units to do that.

That isn’t an SE route. And neither is the battery tech there for this yet (AIUI).

Wise to adopt the 700 style of 2+2 with wide aisles, that should make them much more versatile than the 376s and 707s currently are.

707s are mostly 2+2, some sections 1+2.
376s are low density 2+2 throughout.

Did you mean networkers?

 

[CFRAIL]

It's not about the age of the fleet. You have to remember that fitting cameras will come with all sorts of changes to the unit itself. Is there wiring space, can the CCTV fit in the cab, what are the required standards ?

I'm fairly certain 375's already have the wiring in place for external DOO cameras.

 

[Roast Veg]

Why do you say that? The entire SE route network is electrified.

The tender specifically calls for 20 miles of off-juice range.

That isn’t an SE route. And neither is the battery tech there for this yet (AIUI).

It isn't an SE route at present, but a partial replacement of SN 171s combined with a capacity upgrade would be great for Marshlink passengers. I don't hold out a lot of hope, as other posters think that the revenue use of the batteries will be limited to the new Hoo service only.

And 707s are mostly 2+2, some sections 1+2.

Which is great for the SE metro area, but poor for Tunbridge Wells and Gillingham.

 

[43066]

The tender specifically calls for 20 miles of off-juice range.

Fair point. I hadn’t spotted that, apologies.

It isn't an SE route at present, but a partial replacement of SN 171s combined with a capacity upgrade would be great for Marshlink passengers. I don't hold out a lot of hope, as other posters think that the revenue use of the batteries will be limited to the new Hoo service only.

It’s certainly more of a stretch, distance wise.

Which is great for the SE metro area, but poor for Tunbridge Wells and Gillingham.

Perhaps these new trains are what Sunak meant in the infamous speech where he promised to divert money from poorer areas to places like T Wells. That would (at least as convincingly as anything advanced above) explain why they’re still happening .

 

[bramling]

Do you genuinely believe they are meeting the current passenger demands ? They have served their time faithfully. Put them out to pasture.



Which is whay I say that the DfT and SE are idiots. Passenger consultation is essential when introducing new fleets. Granted the 376s didn't go down well with passengers after their consultations but hopefully lessens were learned. A new fleet is the perfect opportunity to bring passenger and TOC together.



As stated, the infrastructure cannot cope. Platform monitors, mirrors, will no longer be introduced. Much of the non DOO SE network doesn't have the station infrastructure to introduce DOO in its traditional sense. A new unit, with full DOO capability, SDO, etc. Could be a game-changer.



Why is the UK obsessed with history and nostalgia. Bin them, start fresh, build for the future. The railway is so backward in their thinking that they never look forward.

Where is the money going to come from to pay for 375 replacement?

We’re already all going to get an almighty kick in the nut sack on Thursday. On any measure I find it hard to see how anyone could justify replacing 375s at this point.

There’s certainly no argument for replacing them on a passenger quality point of view - I travelled on a 375 with a friend a little while ago, and the comment was made “wow, how come people here get such luxury trains?”.

Perhaps these new trains are what Sunak meant in the infamous speech where he promised to divert money from poorer areas to places like T Wells. That would (at least as convincingly as anything advanced above) explain why they’re still happening .

It’s already been spotted by sharp eyes that Hunt is being associated with all the bad stuff, whilst Sunak manages to come out with the nice stuff like protecting pensioners. One can never be too cynical when it comes to Rishi Sunak.

 

[43066]

Where is the money going to come from to pay for 375 replacement?

We’re already all going to get an almighty kick in the nut sack on Thursday. On any measure I find it hard to see how anyone could justify replacing 375s at this point.

I quite agree. The comments re. 375 replacement are complete and utter fantasy, and probably belong in a speculative thread.

It’s already been spotted by sharp eyes that Hunt is being associated with all the bad stuff, whilst Sunak manages to come out with the nice stuff like protecting pensioners. One can never be too cynical when it comes to Rishi Sunak.

A shrewd observation indeed. I’ve basically checked out and given up thinking about politics at all. That way I get less angry.

 

[Mikey C]

The hate for the Networkers is excessive. Yes they are in a poor condition, but that's because they desperately need a proper refurbishment.

The 455s were transformed by the post privatisation work done to them, something similar should have been done to the Networkers 5 years ago.

 

[theageofthetra]

Umm...




Errr....





The DfT approved this years ago. New units have been in the franchise spec for quite some time. SE has been screwed over for years now and has been the DfT's whipping boy. Politically this is a huge win for SE/DfT and I would hope that other than a political win, it could lead to some major changes. Sadly, the Government and SE are idiots.

However, in answer to your question, the answer really is simple. It's now cheaper for a fleet replacement. Nothing else really matters. Add up the costs for all you mention and then add up the costs for a new fleet. The see-saw tips only one way.

What SE need is infrastructure changes before a fleet change. Not gonna happen, so I'd suggest a 6/4 total fleet replacement. 6/4 would give SE flexibility to run 4/6/8/10/12 car units which will fit on their infrastructure. I think the franchise spec called for 6-cars to give a 6/12 fleet But just like Goldilocks you will be a little too short or a little too long.

Personally I'd like to see a complete replacement. Get rid of everything.

I think that will happen. SE are the 'off the street' railway training school down here. One unit to learn (or a sub varient with much commonality) will cut down training time significantly.

 

[theageofthetra]

I would personally, definitely, but that's another topic altogether.

The monitor replacement program would suggest that's not happening. Though given many are rusting through so badly that this is more a safety issue.

 

[Doomotron]

Personally I'd like to see a complete replacement.

Not sure what a 375 replacement would achieve. They're already a standard design, with a huge class fleet and an enormous family fleet. They're really good at the services they were built for and most are more comfortable than the Javelins that replaced them on fast services. A standardised replacement would be worse for mainline workings and worse for metro workings - the 377s tried to do both and managed neither very well.

 

[FlippyFF]

The main other option I thought could be considered in the existing stock one was 350s. I'm not aware of any other EMUs going off lease that could meet the life expectancy requirement

There also 348 vehicles of the 350s by my count

Alternatively, there's the 379s, but there's not nearly enough of them

Doesn't the leasing tender (link) ask for between 350 and 810 vehicles? If they went for the full 810 vehicles, what else could be available? (I'm guessing the "doors at 1/3 and 2/3 positions" rules out 442s )

Simon

 

[Trainbike46]

Doesn't the leasing tender (link) ask for between 350 and 810 vehicles? If they went for the full 810 vehicles, what else could be available? (I'm guessing the "doors at 1/3 and 2/3 positions" rules out 442s )

Simon

I am stumped as to where you would find 810 existing vehicles meeting the specification! I wonder what they were thinking.

I was assuming that 348 vehicles is close enough to 350 to be considered, but then again, maybe they wrote 350 specifically to exclude the 350s unless combined with another fleet?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am stumped as to where you would find 810 existing vehicles meeting the specification! I wonder what they were thinking.

I was assuming that 348 vehicles is close enough to 350 to be considered, but then again, maybe they wrote 350 specifically to exclude the 350s unless combined with another fleet?

There are only 148 350/2 vehicles. The /1s, /3s and /4s are not available.

 

[Trainbike46]

There are only 148 350/2 vehicles. The /1s, /3s and /4s are not available.

I thought all 350s were going off-lease? did I misunderstand?

 

[Invincible]

Where is the money going to come from to pay for 375 replacement?

We’re already all going to get an almighty kick in the nut sack on Thursday. On any measure I find it hard to see how anyone could justify replacing 375s at this point.

There’s certainly no argument for replacing them on a passenger quality point of view

Wouldn't the leasing company get loans from Pension funds, banks etc to pay for new trains?
Having all new trains from one company mean running costs, servicing , training etc are lower?.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought all 350s were going off-lease? did I misunderstand?

Yes. Only the /2s are going off lease.

 

[Snow1964]

Doesn't the leasing tender (link) ask for between 350 and 810 vehicles? If they went for the full 810 vehicles, what else could be available? (I'm guessing the "doors at 1/3 and 2/3 positions" rules out 442s )

Simon

Yes, tender also allows dual sourcing, so can bid with fewer vehicles

Also the vehicles only need to have a minimum 15 years life from 2027, so a refurbished existing EMU (as long as it doesn’t draw more power than existing fleet) is also ok.

 

[Trainbike46]

Yes, tender also allows dual sourcing, so can bid with fewer vehicles

Also the vehicles only need to have a minimum 15 years life from 2027, so a refurbished existing EMU (as long as it doesn’t draw more power than existing fleet) is also ok.

And what existing EMUs with third rail capability (either present or added) are available? The only ones I can think of are the 350s, and with a lot of crayons the 379s. Which fleets am I missing?

 

[WizCastro197]

And what existing EMUs with third rail capability (either present or added) are available? The only ones I can think of are the 350s, and with a lot of crayons the 379s. Which fleets am I missing?

Yes there’s practically nothing, I ma sure southeastern have a particular unit in mind.

Wont be 377s as southern need them and they don’t even have 200 units of them to give away.

There is nothing at all.

 

[Snow1964]

And what existing EMUs with third rail capability (either present or added) are available? The only ones I can think of are the 350s, and with a lot of crayons the 379s. Which fleets am I missing?

The only other one (and it is a long shot for 15 years minimum from 2027), is some sort of rebuilt class 458 and class 334 fleet. But I suspect will be worse or more costly than building something new.

 

[Milo T.K]

The 8 cars tend to work the inner suburban routes like Rainham via Greenwich and Sutton via Wimbledon, serving unmanned and ungated stations in what some might call more dodgy areas.


I personally have never found the 376s or 700s on the same route to be anywhere near as bad, nor SN 377s or 455s on similarly ”dodgy” routes.

Have you seen that at least 95-99% of the 700s toilets have been vandalised.

 

[WizCastro197]

Have you seen that at least 95-99% of the 700s toilets have been vandalised.

Haha
Yes I said that upthread.

376s have no toilets to vandalise!

 

[Fincra5]

Have you seen that at least 95-99% of the 700s toilets have been vandalised.

Thats mostly the RLUs... it's rough in South East London

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Have you seen that at least 95-99% of the 700s toilets have been vandalised.

always working when i need them

 

[4BEP]

Yes, without a shadow of a doubt the 375s are finished as soon as Southeastern decide to replace them, although it doesn’t look like they’re doing that just yet.


is it now

The fact that the invitation to tender mentions designs for Metro and Mainline stock suggests to me that whoever wins the bid for the Metro stock is likely to be favourite for the Mainline replacement.