• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

Status
Not open for further replies.

Chrisgr31

Established Member
Joined
2 Aug 2011
Messages
1,682
No he didn't.

Southern have not been 'useless for as long as anyone can remember'. They were actually quite good once, before the current problems. A definite improvement on Connex.

Reading these pages, I think people have forgotten who the original MD was when SouthCentral/Southern took over from Connex. Don't recall too many complaints about 'Charlie Horton' then?

Unfortunately a lot of the facts about the dispute have been lost under a pile of nastiness and vitriol. Mr. Hislop's rant justifies my decision to stop Private Eye because of the misinformation that was being produced in there.

Surely if everyone has forgotten that Southern used to be good Hislops point is correct? - It has been useless as long as anyone can remember.

There is a lot of misinformation, rumour, speculation, etc around. For example Southern and the government when not blaming the unions have a habit of blaming London Bridge. Only slight problem with that is the punctuality figures at London Bridge are better than Victoria. None of this helps.

Personally I agree that in their franchise Southern did a good job, and I would agree after all I commute on the Uckfield Line which they have transformed.

However te problem now is, and its the same with lots of contracting out, where you get to the point that all the low hanging fruit has been taken and its a lot more difficult to save money. You then have profit margins cut and it all starts going wrong
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

highdyke

Member
Joined
29 Dec 2015
Messages
678
A militant union leader behind the rail strikes causing chaos for millions says unions are co-ordinating action to “bring down this bloody working-class-hating Tory government”.

Sean Hoyle, president of the RMT, declared that “rule No 1” for his union, whose members have held a string of strikes on the beleaguered Southern rail network, was to “strive to replace the capitalist system with a socialist order”, telling a meeting of hard-left activists last month, “if we all spit together we can drown the *******s”.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/rail-union-boss-vows-to-topple-tories-c0hm3r3sh
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
8,180
While I can't say I'd cry my eyes out if the present system was replaced with some utopia that a genius magicked up out of thin air, and several faces from the current Government were to vanish with it, I can't say it's something I work towards or even give much regular thought to, except occasionally under the influence in a hostelry.

For the avoidance of any doubt, I truly believe that some of the 'spiritual' heads of the union (rather than executive heads, although some of those can be chucked in too) are so far out of touch with those they represent it's unreal.

Equally though I believe the folks in charge at HM Government are guilty of exactly the same.

I have a feeling everything in general is going to blow up into something nasty at some point because the way things are for the human race at the moment is really quite unpleasant an unsustainable. The industrial revolution and subsequent events are all well and good but given we don't appear to have matured as a race beyond basic tribal and cultural instincts, and occasional outbreaks of murdering each other by the thousand or million we may as well be going to hell in a handbasket with the dinosaurs.
 

Astradyne

On Moderation
Joined
14 Mar 2015
Messages
355
Last edited:

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
34,019
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
So we are seeing the RMTs true colours now ... the reason for this dispute is they are trying to change the government ... so strike to bring an end to democracy! Go fellow comrades.

I wonder how many of the former Eastern European "Socialist" countries would have attempted to deal with such a situation (if that had even to have dared to raise its head) had been attempted?

I am sure that recently, I read a posting on a thread on this website strenuously denying that the union side were making a political matter of events.
 
Last edited:

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,666
And it is just the government that has politicialised this dispute ... lol! ... as I have said before ... takes two to tango.

So we are seeing the RMTs true colours now ... the reason for this dispute is they are trying to change the government ... so strike to bring an end to democracy! Go fellow comrades.

Sean Hoyle, as President of the RMT, must be an utter idiot. The RMT has been utterly appalling at communicating the 'safety' issues in their disputes. Now, the President of the Union is making it perfectly plain that his number 1 priority is to replace a democratically-elected government. If this is the best that the RMT can do, on top of all their other blunders, then it must be time for them to be totally ignored.
 
Last edited:

Johnuk123

Established Member
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
2,801
This has always been a purely political strike from day one just to have it confirmed by the president of the RMT is simply what most ordinary people already know.
 

Legzr1

Member
Joined
19 Mar 2010
Messages
581
And it is just the government that has politicialised this dispute ... lol! ... as I have said before ... takes two to tango.

So we are seeing the RMTs true colours now ... the reason for this dispute is they are trying to change the government ... so strike to bring an end to democracy! Go fellow comrades.

When you say 'this dispute' are you talking about Aslef and Southern?

Perhaps in your rush to post messages of glee at the communists finally being found out you might have missed an important point :D
 

Lynford1976

Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
158

otomous

Member
Joined
5 Oct 2011
Messages
444
This has always been a purely political strike from day one just to have it confirmed by the president of the RMT is simply what most ordinary people already know.

If I may attempt to temper the hysterical reaction to this...

Any organisation, party or union, is made up of disparate individuals on different reaches of the political spectrum. Unions tend to be leftist as they are protecting members against the excesses of the free market; the Conservative party tend to be rightist, believing in the free market, minimal state intervention etc etc.

Imagine a press report saying something like Chris Grayling, SoS for Transport, has admitted he wants to outlaw all trade unions, make industrial action illegal, remove all employee protection against unfair dismissal, sick pay and workplace pensions, and allow employers to demand total flexibility from all employees, allowing hiring and firing at will without notice and working days and hours as required, to make the UK the most business friendly environment in the world.

You won't read this, because most of the press is essentially on the centre right or right, and they have pulled off a clever trick over the years of making leftist seem political and rightist seem normal and natural. Yet this will be the belief of some in the Conservative party, though probably not that many. Just like a few in the Unions still think they might see a socialist state established.

This will be a million miles from most of the members of both the Conservative party and the RMT/ASLEF members.

We haven't actually been balloted on whether we wish to bring down the government and the capitalist system.

RMT members have little to lose by striking to protect their jobs if the jobs are going anyway.

ASLEF members are angry that they are being dragged into potentially difficult waters just by doing their day to day job, extending a system that already has issues without first consulting their workforce - something, incidentally, which is in the GTR franchise spec.

Most of the discussion at work is about an increasing awareness of just how poor the view of the train can be on EXISTING DOO trains (See the photo on Sky News - and the fact that it's on Sky tells you something about how the truth is getting out) - and fear of the consequences of extending it further without trying to address the issues; with the resultant fears for themselves and the punters. Not least in terms of the delays that are going to rack up every time a driver finds himself with uncooperative cameras or crowds, necessary to avoid an unsafe scenario developing. We don't like delays either. And the dirty tricks agenda of course - the latest of which is cancelling trains unnecessarily again, presumably to make us look worse, even though if they can't run their service with an overtime ban, surely that says more about their management of the franchise than its train crew?

Funnily enough, I've not heard a solitary mention of a revolution in any mess room, thus far.
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
Sean Hoyle, as President of the RMT, must be an utter idiot. The RMT has been utterly appalling at communicating the 'safety' issues in their disputes. Now, the President of the Union is making it perfectly plain that his number 1 priority is to replace a democratically-elected government. If this is the best that the RMT can do, on top of all their other blunders, then it must be time for them to be totally ignored.

Then he should form a political party and field candidates at the next General Election.
 

Dave1987

On Moderation
Joined
20 Oct 2012
Messages
4,563
Well I see this thread is descending into a political rant accusing anyone who is against DOO of being "communist". Then again the whole country is going down the pan at the moment so why should we be surprised.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,666
If I may attempt to temper the hysterical reaction to this...

Any organisation, party or union, is made up of disparate individuals on different reaches of the political spectrum. Unions tend to be leftist as they are protecting members against the excesses of the free market; the Conservative party tend to be rightist, believing in the free market, minimal state intervention etc etc.

Imagine a press report saying something like Chris Grayling, SoS for Transport, has admitted he wants to outlaw all trade unions, make industrial action illegal, remove all employee protection against unfair dismissal, sick pay and workplace pensions, and allow employers to demand total flexibility from all employees, allowing hiring and firing at will without notice and working days and hours as required, to make the UK the most business friendly environment in the world.

You won't read this, because most of the press is essentially on the centre right or right, and they have pulled off a clever trick over the years of making leftist seem political and rightist seem normal and natural. Yet this will be the belief of some in the Conservative party, though probably not that many. Just like a few in the Unions still think they might see a socialist state established.

This will be a million miles from most of the members of both the Conservative party and the RMT/ASLEF members.

We haven't actually been balloted on whether we wish to bring down the government and the capitalist system.

RMT members have little to lose by striking to protect their jobs if the jobs are going anyway.

ASLEF members are angry that they are being dragged into potentially difficult waters just by doing their day to day job, extending a system that already has issues without first consulting their workforce - something, incidentally, which is in the GTR franchise spec.

Most of the discussion at work is about an increasing awareness of just how poor the view of the train can be on EXISTING DOO trains (See the photo on Sky News - and the fact that it's on Sky tells you something about how the truth is getting out) - and fear of the consequences of extending it further without trying to address the issues; with the resultant fears for themselves and the punters. Not least in terms of the delays that are going to rack up every time a driver finds himself with uncooperative cameras or crowds, necessary to avoid an unsafe scenario developing. We don't like delays either. And the dirty tricks agenda of course - the latest of which is cancelling trains unnecessarily again, presumably to make us look worse, even though if they can't run their service with an overtime ban, surely that says more about their management of the franchise than its train crew?

Funnily enough, I've not heard a solitary mention of a revolution in any mess room, thus far.

I haven't seen any 'hysterical reaction' to anything, just some comments on a newspaper report. It's one thing for a RMT union member to say that he wants to bring down the government, it's something quite different (in my view) for the President of the RMT to be saying it.
Bob Crow must be turning in his grave at what his union has turned in to.
 

Dave1987

On Moderation
Joined
20 Oct 2012
Messages
4,563
Tory MPs not even involved in this dispute or any of the other strikes now tweeting about "dealing" with the unions. I'm sure some of them are drooling over the prospect of banning strikes, or even banning unions all together. Tories now starting to show their true colours? They will never get it through parliament. And like I said before the Tories have some very very thin majorities in some constituencies that won them the last election....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I haven't seen any 'hysterical reaction' to anything, just some comments on a newspaper report. It's one thing for a RMT union member to say that he wants to bring down the government, it's something quite different (in my view) for the President of the RMT to be saying it.
Bob Crow must be turning in his grave at what his union has turned in to.

Seems to be a similar error that a certain member of the DFT made when he said that he wanted to 'wage war on train drivers', yet you all dismissed that.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Then he should form a political party and field candidates at the next General Election.

I thought the unions tried that by forming the TUSC whose candidates got 36,327 votes at the last general election out of almost 31 million voters. All they succeeded in was dividing the Labour vote in some areas meaning the Conservatives won more marginals than they may otherwise have done. :roll:
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
34,019
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
Any attempt to make a comparison between a trade union leader making comment about a joint trades union action in order to bring about the fall of a democratically elected government of a country to a government minister warning of the danger of this type of undemocratic subversion of an elected government, coupled to the recent Corbyn/Momentum Socialist view of matters and the expressed Corbyn view of the current RMT view on the dispute expressed by the President of the RMT union leaves little to the imagination.:roll:
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
You won't read this, because most of the press is essentially on the centre right or right, and they have pulled off a clever trick over the years of making leftist seem political and rightist seem normal and natural. Yet this will be the belief of some in the Conservative party, though probably not that many. Just like a few in the Unions still think they might see a socialist state established.

If you just take newspapers:

Left wing
Socialist Worker
Morning Star

Left of centre
Guardian/Observer
Daily/Sunday Mirror
The People

Centre or Non-political
Financial Times
The Star/Sunday Star
New Day
The i

Right of centre
The Times
Daily/Sunday Telegraph
The Sun/Sun on Sunday
Metro
City A.M.

Right Wing
Daily/Sunday Express
Daily/Sunday Mail

It would be roughly equal if it wasn't for the free papers being to the right of the spectrum. The right wing papers sell more than the left wing ones but that doesn't mean they aren't available. However, there are a number of online only publications which are more to the left of the political spectrum e.g. Huffington Post so could it be people who are more to the left of the political spectrum prefer free online content to buying a newspaper in 2016?

If you were to take the main TV channels you could say they are mainly left wing as while you could argue the BBC is to the right of the centre, they are lot closer to the centre than Channel 4 who are well out to the left.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, for some routes at some times then the reason that the Guard isn't seen is because they have been told by their employer to keep in the cab where it is safe, rather than risk their own personal safety in the train with the rabble.

So the guard is there for safety but doesn't always feel safe themselves? Surely that means 2 members of staff on all trains is a system which doesn't work - some need more than 2 and maybe a solution for finding more is to identify if any services can safely be worked by 1?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ah, good old RMT. The joke that just keeps on giving.

So once their President topples the 'working-class hating'* Tory government, will he set his sights on the rest of the capitalist economies of the world in his quest to be Supreme Leader? Good luck with that one then, comrades.

*: I consider myself to be working-class. I voted Tory.

I would consider train drivers and guards to be middle class in 2016. Long gone are the days when they worked dirty steam trains for poor pay. Although, before people object to that comment I'll add some staff employed by TOCs like customer services and RPIs are working class.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

highdyke

Member
Joined
29 Dec 2015
Messages
678
Well I see this thread is descending into a political rant accusing anyone who is against DOO of being "communist". Then again the whole country is going down the pan at the moment so why should we be surprised.

A quick Google around will reveal the backgrounds and political persuasions of the Union leadership, and many make so secret of what they would like to achieve.

I understand this is not a reflection of the DOO debate, nor does it reflect the political views of the membership (even though they elect these people). But it would be naive to suggest this issue is not being used to pursue a political cause.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,666
Bit difficult as he was cremated. :lol:

Ah........... that suggests that we need a new saying, given how frequent cremations are nowadays !

I suppose that they can still go on to 'fertilise' their colleagues fresh ideas !

:roll:
 
Last edited:

Goldfish62

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
11,663
I wouldn't watch that HIGNFY programme if you paid me, so I don't know what Hislop said, but it would undoubtedly be a pompous rant, which is why I stopped watching it at least 8 years ago, IIRC. He ceased to be funny and just made political comments, such as you and I could. That's neither comedy nor satire.

It would not surprise me, when this is concluded, that Charles Horton becomes Sir Charles.

You scoff? Just wait and see. :D

His vitriol was directed towards the government and GTR. Personally I'm with him on this. The only bit I didn't agree with was his comment that Southern has always been useless, but I think that's allowed on a satirical show.
 

Dave1987

On Moderation
Joined
20 Oct 2012
Messages
4,563
A quick Google around will reveal the backgrounds and political persuasions of the Union leadership, and many make so secret of what they would like to achieve.

I understand this is not a reflection of the DOO debate, nor does it reflect the political views of the membership (even though they elect these people). But it would be naive to suggest this issue is not being used to pursue a political cause.

You were very very quick to dismiss criticism of Mr Wilkinson for making comments about 'waging war on train drivers'. Yet you have pounced on an article by The Times about a Union official. I believe someone on here posted that The Times have been fully briefed by the Government so its hardly surprising that that paper has suddenly found these tapes. The RMT is arguably a complete dogs breakfast of a union at the moment and I really do feel sorry for those union members on the ground having to listen to the rhetoric coming out of those at the top. As far as I am concerned you have shown your true colours in recent posts and so I cannot take any of your posts seriously at all. The Government is clearly trying to discredit the Unions claims on safety which is why they keep on saying its a political dispute.

The pure fact that MPs from the likes of Bath are getting involved saying that unions have to be "dealt with" shows the Tories are trying to use the current industrial disputes as an excuse to get rid of unions completely. Considering the wafer thin majority they have and which the Tory Government is based I would put money on it not being a Tory Government post 2020, especially considering the complete horlicks they are making of Brexit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The, "If we all spit to-gether.........." remark is actually him quoting and re-cycling a Bob Crow statement.
Now we see the union leaders for what they are, destroyers of democracy who want their approved choice of government using "their" members as the tools to do it.

Wow you lot really are pouncing on this aren't you. Lets see how well the Tories do in 2020 if they try and wipe out the unions which is clearly their ultimate wet dream.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Its amazing how this whole situation has turned my way of thinking. I always thought of myself as centre, maybe a tad centre right. Yet this last six months have made me more and more and more left of centre as the weeks have past having seen what the right wing truly stand for. Just look at what is going on with the prisons. The prison officers union has been saying for months how bad things are getting inside prisons and have been ignored by Government. It takes an ad-hoc strike and one of the worst riots in years for their concerns to finally be headed. Wonder what its going to take on the railways?
 

highdyke

Member
Joined
29 Dec 2015
Messages
678
You were very very quick to dismiss criticism of Mr Wilkinson for making comments about 'waging war on train drivers'. Yet you have pounced on an article by The Times about a Union official. I believe someone on here posted that The Times have been fully briefed by the Government so its hardly surprising that that paper has suddenly found these tapes. The RMT is arguably a complete dogs breakfast of a union at the moment and I really do feel sorry for those union members on the ground having to listen to the rhetoric coming out of those at the top. As far as I am concerned you have shown your true colours in recent posts and so I cannot take any of your posts seriously at all. The Government is clearly trying to discredit the Unions claims on safety which is why they keep on saying its a political dispute.

The pure fact that MPs from the likes of Bath are getting involved saying that unions have to be "dealt with" shows the Tories are trying to use the current industrial disputes as an excuse to get rid of unions completely. Considering the wafer thin majority they have and which the Tory Government is based I would put money on it not being a Tory Government post 2020, especially considering the complete horlicks they are making of Brexit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Wow you lot really are pouncing on this aren't you. Lets see how well the Tories do in 2020 if they try and wipe out the unions which is clearly their ultimate wet dream.

Nice rant Dave, it's clear one side is playing the other, I'm a little more rounded in my outlook than you think. The problem is right now ASLEF and RMT are walking right into it.

The DOO safety claims have been discredited by RSSB, ORR and 30 years of operation. The Unions are showing a remarkable lack of sophistication which makes easy prey for critics. All this has been reduced to a Punch and Judy show of disagreements over who will open the doors by the fourth estate.
 

paul332

Member
Joined
9 Nov 2007
Messages
65
Merseyrail have ordered new DOO-ready trains from Stadler. RMT has already protested. Scousers can now look forward to months, nay years, nay decades of travel disruption just like we Southerners as the unions duly do their thing. Yippee! Go unions!!! Smack them up north just like you're doing so magnanimously down south. Keep the railways 100% safe - close them all down!
 

Dave1987

On Moderation
Joined
20 Oct 2012
Messages
4,563
Nice rant Dave, it's clear one side is playing the other, I'm a little more rounded in my outlook than you think. The problem is right now ASLEF and RMT are walking right into it.

The DOO safety claims have been discredited by RSSB, ORR and 30 years of operation. The Unions are showing a remarkable lack of sophistication which makes easy prey for critics. All this has been reduced to a Punch and Judy show of disagreements over who will open the doors by the fourth estate.

Really? All I've ever heard you rant on about is efficiency. ASLEF has a big big concern and that is liability. The CPS is willing to prosecute just about anything with a pulse nowadays. In a world where trains are running very early in the morning and very late at night and the public seemingly willing to put their own safety at risk is it any surprise that the unions have concerns? Look at the situation with the prisons and the massive riot that has just happened at Birmingham, and then look at what the Prison Officers Association has been saying for months and months. The Government has refuted there are any problems until there is the biggest riot for many years on their watch and all of a sudden they leap into action. The ORR actually said that they could see no problems with DOO if it was properly managed. ASLEF do not believe it has been properly managed so wish to go back to former safer ways of working with a guard.
 

highdyke

Member
Joined
29 Dec 2015
Messages
678
ASLEF has a big big concern and that is liability. .

Yes, the Liverpool case changed everything. It's a job that carries responsibility. However, all railway staff has been given more and more aids over the years to prevent accidents. The Driver's role is very sanitised compared to what it was and many risks have been reduced to such an extent they can carry out DOO roles safely (in the RSSB, ORR opinion). So much so there's still probably more chance of a driver being prosecuted driving a road vehicle, even if they drive a train for a living. I see no problem if the drivers get extra pay and guard redundancy is handled by natural wastage. You can't expect nothing to change for the next 50 years.
 
Last edited:

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,005
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Merseyrail have ordered new DOO-ready trains from Stadler. RMT has already protested. Scousers can now look forward to months, nay years, nay decades of travel disruption just like we Southerners as the unions duly do their thing. Yippee! Go unions!!! Smack them up north just like you're doing so magnanimously down south. Keep the railways 100% safe - close them all down!

Merseytravel has ordered the trains for Merseyrail to operate.
Merseytravel is the local publicly owned PTE which is chaired by local council people.
Despite being mostly left-leaning councils, they have decided to make the new fleet DOO (with employment safeguards for displaced staff).

So this is not a DfT/Union, private/public, left/right, intransigent TOC/profit thing at all.
It's a cash-strapped PTE making a logical decision about operating a new train fleet.
Quote by Liam Robinson, Chair of Merseytravel (who has a rail background and is a TSSA member): http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/abou...ter-City-Region-leaders-give-green-light.aspx

That is not to say that we’re not sensitive to the staffing implications of such a decision.
In an ideal world we’d like to have a second member of staff on every train to ensure the highest level of customer service, but there aren’t the resources to do that.
That is why, as the Merseytravel Committee, endorsed by the Combined Authority, we have sought guaranteed continued employment for all permanently employed guards and their managers who wish to stay at Merseyrail – something that we have had reassurance can be accommodated.
Some guards will have the opportunity to be employed in a new on-board customer service role and others will be able to take advantage of other redeployment opportunities, all on the same terms and conditions as now
 
Last edited:

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
On the subject of a second qualified person on a train and a fatality occurred attributable to DOO without a second person, I wonder if there would be any action if a recommendation that there should always be such a person aboard in all circumstances came from a Coroner. Hopefully there will be no accident.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top