Southern, Thameslink & Great Northern 'Not On Strike' Details

[jon0844]

It did make me chuckle when National Express boasted about accommodating an additional 1000 passengers from London to Brighton. That’s about one 12-car Thameslink class 700 then lol.

A 12 car 700 can take 1,754 people!

 

[dk1]

A 12 car 700 can take 1,754 people!

Makes it even more amusing then.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

That’s about one 12-car Thameslink class 700 then lol.

8 car is 1146, 12 car is 1754 according to design specs for standing + seated.

 

[Bald Rick]

It did make me chuckle when National Express boasted about accommodating an additional 1000 passengers from London to Brighton. That’s about one 12-car Thameslink class 700 then lol.

It’s not even an 8 car!

 

[JonathanH]

It’s not even an 8 car!

While that is true, people tend not to accept that level of (full and standing type) loading on 50 mile journeys.

 

[Bald Rick]

While that is true, people tend not to accept that level of (full and standing type) loading on 50 mile journeys.

They do on pride weekends, and have done for a long time.

Besides, an 8 car 700 with 1000 people on it isn’t *that* crowded.

 

[dk1]

While that is true, people tend not to accept that level of (full and standing type) loading on 50 mile journeys.

You just squash in where you can. Many such a trip was made more memorable then lol.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

people tend not to accept that level of (full and standing type) loading on 50 mile journeys.

Have you ever travelled on the BML off-peak? A not-insignificant number of trains are like that every day.

 

[Dave91131]

It did make me chuckle when National Express boasted about accommodating an additional 1000 passengers from London to Brighton. That’s about one 12-car Thameslink class 700 then lol.

At least National Express put the effort in.

Unlike the hapless, useless, pathetic railway.

 

[pompeyfan]

At least National Express put the effort in.

Unlike the hapless, useless, pathetic railway.

I’m far from GTRs biggest fan, but it was probably the right decision. Pride will always require significant volume of RDW, comments saying they could have done this, they could have done that are unlikely to have access to drivers T&Cs.

Can any GTR drivers advise on limit of movement from base roster please? I’d imagine start time can move -/+ 2 hours, possibly 3 which means you wouldn’t be able to move enough drivers to the mass exodus leaving Brighton.

 

[cona321]

I can understand having to limit the operations around the Brighton area for crowd control. But I don't understand how GTR were running a strike day timetable throughout the whole network with many routes only having a train service between 7am and 6pm except for a handful of key routes which ran a bit later. If you look at this upcoming Saturday, they are operating a regular service throughout the entire day like any other day when the overtime ban has been in operation, which makes me think that the decision for last Saturday was politically motivated.

 

[JonathanH]

If you look at this upcoming Saturday, they are operating a regular service throughout the entire day like any other day when the overtime ban has been in operation, which makes me think that the decision for last Saturday was politically motivated.

They are not running a full service this coming Saturday but admittedly what is running runs all day. For example, there are no Southern trains through to Southampton, Portsmouth trains only run to Brighton, Gatwick Express is replaced by Southern services and there are other simplifications.

 

[infobleep]

I can understand having to limit the operations around the Brighton area for crowd control. But I don't understand how GTR were running a strike day timetable throughout the whole network with many routes only having a train service between 7am and 6pm except for a handful of key routes which ran a bit later. If you look at this upcoming Saturday, they are operating a regular service throughout the entire day like any other day when the overtime ban has been in operation, which makes me think that the decision for last Saturday was politically motivated.

My educated guess is they had an almost off-the-shelf timetable that enabled trains to terminate at Three Bridges and Barnhan, which is why they ran a strike type of timetable.

Happy to be told that wasn't the case.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

GTR don't have enough drivers everywhere but they aren't 50% short of drivers yet that is the service that is provided and as a result a lot of train crew resource left under utilised and the bill for that ends up on the tax payer. I get the planning teams are not resourced to deal with this so in the short term a heavily hacked back service was the only response to provide certainty. However, in all likelihood ASLEF will continue to call o/t and RDW bans until the members tell them otherwise which doesn't seem anytime soon. Thus GTR should be looking at how they can best utilise the driver establishment they do have to provide best service albeit in may take many weeks to review each route and depot rosters.

 

[Bald Rick]

GTR don't have enough drivers everywhere but they aren't 50% short of drivers yet that is the service that is provided and as a result a lot of train crew resource left under utilised and the bill for that ends up on the tax payer. I get the planning teams are not resourced to deal with this so in the short term a heavily hacked back service was the only response to provide certainty. However, in all likelihood ASLEF will continue to call o/t and RDW bans until the members tell them otherwise which doesn't seem anytime soon. Thus GTR should be looking at how they can best utilise the driver establishment they do have to provide best service albeit in may take many weeks to review each route and depot rosters.

GTR are providing 70% of normal services, although that does vary by station, naturally.

 

[Minstral25]

GTR are providing 70% of normal services, although that does vary by station, naturally.

Accept that it varies but 70% surely is not accurate - we are not seeing service anywhere like that.

We have as little as 25% running at 2 local stations and just under 30% of our normal London Service - the 2 stations with 25% service normally have 0.8 and 1.8 million entries a year, so they are not hardly used stations and trains (class 700 12 car) have been too full for passengers to get on at peak times at these stations.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Last Saturday Amberley had nearly 200% of its services. And Faygate got a Saturday service.

 

[Watershed]

Accept that it varies but 70% surely is not accurate - we are not seeing service anywhere like that.

We have as little as 25% running at 2 local stations and just under 30% of our normal London Service - the 2 stations with 25% service normally have 0.8 and 1.8 million entries a year, so they are not hardly used stations and trains (class 700 12 car) have been too full for passengers to get on at peak times at these stations.

As always, averages can be misleading. It's little consolation having some lines receive a near-normal service, if others are on a quarter of their normal service.

 

[Bald Rick]

Accept that it varies but 70% surely is not accurate - we are not seeing service anywhere like that.

We have as little as 25% running at 2 local stations and just under 30% of our normal London Service - the 2 stations with 25% service normally have 0.8 and 1.8 million entries a year, so they are not hardly used stations and trains (class 700 12 car) have been too full for passengers to get on at peak times at these stations.

It is definitely 70%. A fraction more actually.

That is on their whole network. Bear in mind they normally run around 3,300 trains a day. As @Watershed says this doesn’t particularly help those who have rather less.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

GTR are providing 70% of normal services, although that does vary by station, naturally.

Well at Redhill it half that at 33% of WTT. Doesn't make sense the Reigate-Vics are all knocked when its Redhill Depots main work these days even some of the Tonbridge-Reigate are being covered by SE crews.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

It is definitely 70%. A fraction more actually.

Of these 70% of total trains running, are they all running in original formations serving the same stations? Are the Cambridge - Brighton trains running only as far as Three Bridges being included in this 70% total?

 

[Minstral25]

It is definitely 70%. A fraction more actually.

That is on their whole network. Bear in mind they normally run around 3,300 trains a day. As @Watershed says this doesn’t particularly help those who have rather less.

Yes, can only report what we have. Locally it is of no assurance when 75% of trains are removed.

Quoting the 70% as a positive is also very annoying (probably just to me), when it is known that many places have far fewer trains

Well at Redhill it half that at 33% of WTT. Doesn't make sense the Reigate-Vics are all knocked when its Redhill Depots main work these days even some of the Tonbridge-Reigate are being covered by SE crews.

All Reigate to Victoria's cancelled, plus 75% of Thameslink core trains cancelled - just lucky that one of the cancelled services runs up to London Bridge.

I think it is only 33% of WTT because GWR North Downs are running a 100% service.

 

[infobleep]

GTR are providing 70% of normal services, although that does vary by station, naturally.

Whilst I have happy to accept over 70% of services are running.

What would the passenger numbers be if the following calculation was made?

Get the total average number of passengers per route. Divide this by the number of trains that run that day.

Now get the total number of trains per route on a day when staff do not wish to do overtime. Times this by the result from the previous output.

If you then added up all the results, would the total passenger number be the same?

I accept this is very crude but what I'm getting at is that a 200% increase at a small station will have less impact than a 50% decrease at a popular station but in terms of actual trains running, it isn't so. Since trains running doesn't take into account how popular the line they run on is.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of these 70% of total trains running, are they all running in original formations serving the same stations? Are the Cambridge - Brighton trains running only as far as Three Bridges being included in this 70% total?

Fomations, I don’t know; percentage is based on train service count and doesn’t take into account different stopping patterns of each service.

Whilst I have happy to accept over 70% of services are running.

What would the passenger numbers be if the following calculation was made?

Get the total average number of passengers per route. Divide this by the number of trains that run that day.

Now get the total number of trains per route on a day when staff do not wish to do overtime. Times this by the result from the previous output.

If you then added up all the results, would the total passenger number be the same?

I accept this is very crude but what I'm getting at is that a 200% increase at a small station will have less impact than a 50% decrease at a popular station but in terms of actual trains running, it isn't so. Since trains running doesn't take into account how popular the line they run on is.

I‘m not sure what this actually means. If you mean “how many seat miles are there as a % of normal” that’s one thing, if it’s how many passengers are using the services compared to normal” that’s quite another.

Quoting the 70% as a positive is also very annoying (probably just to me), when it is known that many places have far fewer trains

I don’t think I quoted it as positive, sorry if it came over that way. It’s certainly not good for passengers (including me), however many passenegrs won’t be noticing the difference. Of course, those from Reigate / Redhill certainly will.

 

[infobleep]

I'm not sure what this actually means. If you mean “how many seat miles are there as a % of normal” that’s one thing, if it’s how many passengers are using the services compared to normal” that’s quite another.

I may not be doing the right formula here.

Imagine a railway line, called A, with 200k passengers a day. This line sees a cut to two-thirds of its services.

Now imagine a railway line, called B, with 200 passengers a day and this line sees an increase in two-thirds of its services to match the number of services that would usually run on line A.

The total number of services running is the same but the number of passengers carried and inconvenienced will be much higher and not cancelled out as more passengers use line A vers line B.

This is what I was trying to get at and would make for a more interesting comparison than over 70% of services are running, although I'm grateful you provided that state, as I didn't know it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Oh right. Well I don’t think anywhere has a routine increase in services. Just different levels of reductions.

 

[infobleep]

Oh right. Well, I don’t think anywhere has a routine increase in services. Just different levels of reductions.

Well someone said Amberley has 200% of its services.

Even if there is a reduction across the board, are any services and lines less used by passengers getting a better service than lines usually used more by passengers? Or is it just an odd station here and there which has an unusual increase?

 

[Mikey C]

With the reduced overall timetable, confusing (and disappointing) that my train from Peterborough yesterday evening (19:54) was an 8 car, meaning no wifi or tables on what is a long run (1hr 20 to London, never mind the whole journey to Horsham).

Horribly graffitied toilet, plus some graffiti in the saloon itself too.

 

[jon0844]

If you get an 8 car that has been anywhere near Sevenoaks or Rainham, it's going to be a mess inside. They do repaint the toilet walls, but then you have a blank canvas to invite more tagging.

 

[bramling]

If you get an 8 car that has been anywhere near Sevenoaks or Rainham, it's going to be a mess inside. They do repaint the toilet walls, but then you have a blank canvas to invite more tagging.

That’s presumably pretty much all the 8-cars then. The GN 700/0 fleet is no longer anywhere near as captive as it once was. In 2018/19 the GN units stayed put for many weeks, but in the last year or so this has pretty much come to an end.