Southern, Thameslink & Great Northern 'Not On Strike' Details

[Nicholas Lewis]

As was entirely predictable the 9Jxx Horsham to Peterborough service has been unreliable on some days with numerous cancellations due to driver shortages - they are only running half the service! We know this is due to it needing two drivers to cover the journey so only takes one to be unavailable and whole diagram has to be canned. Im not expecting GTR to deliver a better service level in two weeks time but they really need to split the the service to KX and LBG and run the 9Rxx as the through service where a single driver is generally used throughout.

 

[infobleep]

I hears on LBC that there are to be no services to or from Brighton on 5 August and no east or west coastway services either into Brighton. This is due to staff not wanting to work overtime on that day and it is considered unsafe for the Brighton Pride event.

Brighton services start from Three Bridges.

They haven't said whether stations between Preston Park and Balcombe inclusive will be closed.

Obviously, only those with lockable doors and ticket barriers can be closed.

Brighton Pride​

Saturday 5 & Sunday 6 August​

IMPORTANT UPDATE: There will be no trains to or from Brighton station on Saturday 5 August.​

It is with a heavy heart that we announce that due to serious safety concerns, there will be no trains to or from Brighton station on Saturday 5 August. Friday 4 August and Sunday 6 August are not affected and events on the Saturday are still going ahead.

Therefore, on Saturday 5th August, people will not be able travel to and from Brighton by rail and the station will be closed. [SIC] Trains on the Brighton Main Line will terminate at Three Bridges. No services will run on the coastways into Brighton because of the amended timetable we will have in place.
.......
On Saturday evening there is always a massive demand for return travel over a short period of time, with a capacity shortfall of 85,000 across the day including 20,000 passengers in the busiest hours of the evening alone.

Southern - Brighton Pride

www.southernrailway.com

Nice to see the figures being published but would be helpful to know about the stations other than Brighton. It seems even the Arun Valley line might not be running if I understand correctly as someone asked on Twitter if they could get from Arundel to Fratton and was told no. Facts seem to be limited at this stage though.

I did read on Twitter that the timetable is due in the journey planner system on 31 July.

 

[dk1]

It’s all kicking off on Twitter (or whatever it’s called this week).

 

[IrishDave]

Nice to see the figures being published but would be helpful to know about the stations other than Brighton. It seems even the Arun Valley line might not be running if I understand correctly as someone asked on Twitter if they could get from Arundel to Fratton and was told no. Facts seem to be limited at this stage though.

The Industrial Action page has a bit more detail:

Thameslink - Industrial action

www.thameslinkrailway.com

This map shows the extent of services on 5th August:

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-shared-images/industrial-action/august-2023/2023-08-05_ci_gtr_ia_krs_custmap_dr-image.jpg

Basically nothing running south of Three Bridges or east of Angmering.

 

[infobleep]

The Industrial Action page has a bit more detail:

Thameslink - Industrial action

www.thameslinkrailway.com

This map shows the extent of services on 5th August:

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-shared-images/industrial-action/august-2023/2023-08-05_ci_gtr_ia_krs_custmap_dr-image.jpg

Basically, nothing running south of Three Bridges or east of Angmering.

How about they produce a list of all the stations that will be closed?

I don't know how accessible their diagrammatic map is to partially sighted and blind users.

I am surprised they have been able to run trains To Three Bridges as no doubt that requires a unique timetable. Given they were able to do this though, it's a shame they could have extended them to Haywards Heath, which is a station used to terminate trains during engineering works.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

GTR have plenty of drivers available who will work services they are rostered to but GTR are taking the easy option here again and transferring the problem onto other public transport operators and road users.

 

[JonathanH]

GTR have plenty of drivers available who will work services they are rostered to but GTR are taking the easy option here again and transferring the problem onto other public transport operators and road users.

If they feel there is going to be an overcrowding issue which cause a safety risk it is hard to see what other action they can take.

Should GTR concentrate all of their available traincrew on Brighton that day and leave other routes unserved?

They are cutting late trains to Brighton this weekend as well due to a lack of available station staff.

 

[dk1]

I remember well that event several years ago when Thameslink made a huge mistake with a promotion for something ridiculous like £1 to go anywhere on their network. Brighton was understandably absolutely swamped with massive queues for return trains with thousands of passengers stranded and unable to board. BTP & local police warned them never to do something so stupid again.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If they feel there is going to be an overcrowding issue which cause a safety risk it is hard to see what other action they can take.

Just leaving other public transport operators to deal with it instead isn't the answer either

Should GTR concentrate all of their available traincrew on Brighton that day and leave other routes unserved?

GTR could have maximised 12 car 700's by running L.Bdge to Brighton perhaps instead of Cambridge which has alternative services from KX

They are cutting late trains to Brighton this weekend as well due to a lack of available station staff.

Thats due to the RMT dispute which wont be in place on the 5th.

 

[Stephen42]

Just leaving other public transport operators to deal with it instead isn't the answer either

GTR could have maximised 12 car 700's by running L.Bdge to Brighton perhaps instead of Cambridge which has alternative services from KX

Thats due to the RMT dispute which wont be in place on the 5th.

GTR state that they would be 20,000 short of demand between 9pm and 2am. The regular timetable only has 8 trains to London in that period and last train midnight. With the capacity gap greater than the regularly scheduled service with all 12 car 700s it's hard to see how replanning would get close.

 

[OFFDN]

GTR have plenty of drivers available who will work services they are rostered to but GTR are taking the easy option here again and transferring the problem onto other public transport operators and road users.

Id be fascinated to see how u have worked this out… please explain more??

 

[pompeyfan]

I can understand why they have done it, but they’re getting absolutely battered on social media. I take it there’s not enough drivers that are rostered to book off late enough that can do a late night departure and get back to their home depot within their hours. Do GTR have the “Winchester agreement” or something similar, where when on dispute the flexibility in the movement on and off times are further reduced? I know some TOCs are still unable to take drivers off their booked turns and change work content within 36 hours, even if it’s within their hours.

 

[Duffer]

The vast majority of the extra overnight services were timetabled for the early hours of Sunday 6th - a date not covered by the overtime ban. The idea that drivers are being prevented from volunteering for these extra trains because of the overtime ban is a bit of a red herring.

Re: the above point, if you are spare/as required you can be moved in exactly the same way in dispute as when not in dispute.

 

[ModernRailways]

The vast majority of the extra overnight services were timetabled for the early hours of Sunday 6th - a date not covered by the overtime ban. The idea that drivers are being prevented from volunteering for these extra trains because of the overtime ban is a bit of a red herring.

What would the book on time be for those jobs though? It's one thing them being timetabled for the 6th but could it not be that they would need to be booking on during the 5th. I'm not familiar with GTRs operations, but if they gave a few drivers a 00:00 book on for the 6th as OT, could they then be taking a train out of Brighton at 00:30, 00:45, 01:00 etc?

~
I read their initial press release as more of a 'we're not going to be able to run our usual timetabled service' so running anything extra is simply out of the question.

Seems a strange decision either way to in essence throw in the towel for what is such a significant event (it's the biggest pride event in the UK, if not one of the biggest in the world?), and to do so with a weeks notice? Absolutely abysmal, there's surely alternatives too, could they not, for example cut service on some other routes (not entirely, but reduced frequency) or do amended workings with full 12 car trains running to Brighton even if short forming elsewhere (where possible).
The 700s hoover up passengers incredibly well from the Thameslink side even if they just ran as far as London Bridge/Blackfriars and not further north so they could make a 2 and a half hour round trip (possibly skipping some of the stations between Three Bridges and Brighton for crowd control purposes). The 377s and 387s aren't exactly bad people collectors either and could run more of an express London service (GTW(?), ECR, CLJ).

Is this actually a GTR decision or has this been made by Govt and the DfT?

I also note that they're taking a very big beating on social media with a not insignificant number of people pointing out that they've ran a service during the same 'industrial action' over the past few weeks.

 

[Bishopstone]

It’s not that hard to understand.

During the Saturday of Pride, everything arriving in Brighton from mid-morning onwards is rammed, and likewise everything departing from mid-evening, to the extent there was a serious crowd control incident, pre-Covid.

This year, due to the overtime ban, they can’t run as many trains, so the number of intending passengers won’t fit, or risks leaving Pride-goers stranded in Brighton. Both creating unacceptable risks.

Regarding ‘Why can’t they focus resources on Brighton, at the expense of other lines?’, well:

- Other lines already have a reduced service on OT ban days
- Leaving other lines completely unserved would be a questionable move. Pride is important, but people still need to get to work (etc) elsewhere
- Do the drivers on other lines ‘know’ Brighton?
- Who is going to come-up with another bespoke timetable, at very short notice? (Clerks working overtime, maybe….?)
- Even then: do you have enough drivers and other staff to run the enhanced, and necessary, late-night services from Brighton, to clear the crowds?

If councils, Pride etc wish to challenge any of the facts, the question I’d ask them by return is:

’Are you willing to underwrite the safety risks, corporately and personally, and state publicly that you’ve done so?’

 

[Jan Mayen]

I recall a Fatboy Slim event years/decades ago in Brighton where the estimated crowd was going to be 20,000 but turned out to be 250,000. This was noticed and I believe 12 extra evening trains to London were put on. Obviously, no-one was on strike or banning overtime that day.

 

[Watershed]

Leaving other lines completely unserved would be a questionable move

Except that's exactly what GTR have done. No trains at all on either the East or West Coastway, amongst other routes. I'd almost understand (though still not agree) if they decided to terminate trains at Worthing/Lewes etc. as most people wouldn't bother taking a local bus/taxi from there to Brighton. But they've just cancelled the lot.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

but people still need to get to work (etc) elsewhere

What about the people that need to get to work as normal on any of the routes left unserved by this silly idea?

 

[JonathanH]

What about the people that need to get to work as normal on any of the routes left unserved by this silly idea?

How do you differentiate those people from the people attending the event?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

How do you differentiate those people from the people attending the event?

Supply replacement services to those with monthly/annual season tickets only

The point is that by just cancelling everything on routes that aren't really affected, such as the coastways away from BTN, is going to have a massive knock-on effect to the livelihoods of people, not just pride-goers. GTR isn't even pretending to acknowledge that fact.

 

[JonathanH]

Supply replacement services to those with monthly/annual season tickets only

Even that doesn't catch those who only work weekends, or even those working as event staff. Realistically there is no way of splitting up the passenger flows.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Realistically there is no way of splitting up the passenger flows.

And for the people who do not work or live anywhere near Brighton but have still seen their trains disappear on the coastways?

 

[ModernRailways]

It’s not that hard to understand.

During the Saturday of Pride, everything arriving in Brighton from mid-morning onwards is rammed, and likewise everything departing from mid-evening, to the extent there was a serious crowd control incident, pre-Covid.

This year, due to the overtime ban, they can’t run as many trains, so the number of intending passengers won’t fit, or risks leaving Pride-goers stranded in Brighton. Both creating unacceptable risks.

Regarding ‘Why can’t they focus resources on Brighton, at the expense of other lines?’, well:

- Other lines already have a reduced service on OT ban days
- Leaving other lines completely unserved would be a questionable move. Pride is important, but people still need to get to work (etc) elsewhere
- Do the drivers on other lines ‘know’ Brighton?
- Who is going to come-up with another bespoke timetable, at very short notice? (Clerks working overtime, maybe….?)
- Even then: do you have enough drivers and other staff to run the enhanced, and necessary, late-night services from Brighton, to clear the crowds?

If councils, Pride etc wish to challenge any of the facts, the question I’d ask them by return is:

’Are you willing to underwrite the safety risks, corporately and personally, and state publicly that you’ve done so?’

Safety is paramount, yes. GTR have known of this event for long enough, they have plans in place for crowd control including preventing people travelling into Brighton once they know their capacity for returning them has been reached. This is something they do every year and do so fairly well now.
Of course safety-wise you also now risk getting people to Three Bridges, and causing chaos there.

They have totally abandoned all passengers travelling on the Coastways or any of the numerous stations south of Three Bridges instead. Someone commuting from Haywards Heath to Gatwick can’t now do so because GTR have decided to just not bother. A reduced service on another line to provide additional capacity on the BML is something that makes sense to do during big events such as this. Again this is quite possibly the biggest UK pride event.

A significant chunk of Southern drivers sign London-Brighton (either Vic or Bridge), likewise with Thameslink drivers, there’s only a few depots who don’t.

GTR have known about this for long enough, and could have began preparations with those in the planning department to run a service not just decided to say no we’re not going to bother, just cancel everything one week before.

 

[pompeyfan]

Sadly we could discuss the rights and wrongs, but it won’t change anything. Southern know their operation well enough to know that they probably couldn’t safely deliver enough trains to get everyone home again, whether that’s towards either coastway, or the London bound direction.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Of course safety-wise you also now risk getting people to Three Bridges, and causing chaos there.

Considering the difference in local bus and connecting train services, I’d think that the risk to Tunbridge Wells, where Southeastern is expecting to run a normal service and Brighton & Hove Buses’ Regency 29 has recently seen a frequency increase, would be slightly more than Three Bridges.

Realistically though, I think people will probably not bother using the train to either station to get to Brighton on the Saturday itself with the advance notice of there being no trains to Brighton as is and passengers aren’t going to think outside the box in such a way when National Express (where the 025 can’t compete against the train into London on a usual day) are still running coaches and are therefore going to have a field day!

 

[Bald Rick]

GTR have plenty of drivers available who will work services they are rostered to but GTR are taking the easy option here again and transferring the problem onto other public transport operators and road users.

It wasn’t GTRs decision.

 

[Jan Mayen]

It wasn’t GTRs decision.

Whose decision was it?

 

[winks]

I believe it was GTR’s decision after discussions with the police and local authorities.

I was there in 2018 when there was a surge on Brighton station and a major incident was declared. Thankfully last year that didn’t happen, with meticulous planning on all sides.

There simply isn’t a safe way to get everyone to pride on reduced services, although to muddy the waters Mick Wheelan (ASLEF) has said they’d be happy to run special diagrams for the day.

It really is a total disaster for the local economy but it’s a sign of where things are in terms of industrial relations.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I believe it was GTR’s decision after discussions with the police and local authorities.

I was there in 2018 when there was a surge on Brighton station and a major incident was declared. Thankfully last year that didn’t happen, with meticulous planning on all sides.

There simply isn’t a safe way to get everyone to pride on reduced services, although to muddy the waters Mick Wheelan (ASLEF) has said they’d be happy to run special diagrams for the day.

It really is a total disaster for the local economy but it’s a sign of where things are in terms of industrial relations.

Given Mick Wheelan offer GTR should rally to the cause but they wont.

The fundamental issue here with GTR is they are running a far inferior service, unlike many other operators, despite having a huge driver establishment presumably because they don't have the planning resource to un pick all the diagrams so they have to take a "safe" option. Thing is its now pretty obvious that ASLEF are going to run the o/t & RDW ban indefinitely unless their members tell them otherwise (unlikely from the ones i know) so GTR need to recalibrate their timetable around the current establishment so best service can be provided. The wider risk, even for GTR management, is DfT says yes we are losing some revenue but how much could we save if we just make this cut down timetable the new baseline time table and take even more stock off lease and get rid of not just ticket office staff.

 

[Stephen42]

Given Mick Wheelan offer GTR should rally to the cause but they wont.

The fundamental issue here with GTR is they are running a far inferior service, unlike many other operators, despite having a huge driver establishment presumably because they don't have the planning resource to un pick all the diagrams so they have to take a "safe" option. Thing is its now pretty obvious that ASLEF are going to run the o/t & RDW ban indefinitely unless their members tell them otherwise (unlikely from the ones i know) so GTR need to recalibrate their timetable around the current establishment so best service can be provided. The wider risk, even for GTR management, is DfT says yes we are losing some revenue but how much could we save if we just make this cut down timetable the new baseline time table and take even more stock off lease and get rid of not just ticket office staff.

It's unclear if there was an offer to help or a claim GTR could have followed standard process. The ASLEF press release is poor in my opinion and ignores GTR reasons for not running trains to Brighton. The quote below is about special diagrams:

Mick adds: ‘The truth is that shift patterns mean that if services can run on a Friday, they can run on a Saturday. The company could have issued a special diagram to ensure people could get into – and out of – Brighton on the day. The fact that GTR Thameslink has chosen not to run services for passengers on Saturday reveals that this is a clear, conscious, and deliberate decision to disrupt – and ruin – Brighton Pride.’

Reads to me like they are saying GTR could have issued altered diagrams, it's far from obvious if that process would allow shifting shifts much later than usual. It's also fairly indicative of the piece, with a lack of basic understanding in this case of the event attendance by day and favouring accusations without any supporting evidence.