Southern Timetable Change September 2022

[PGAT]

I didn’t think London Bridge to Eastbourne trains run as 12 coaches? Can every platform that they call at on the East Coastway fit 12?
It’s the 21:26 I think?


Also seeing a 95 minute late Thameslink to Bedford

Trains to Eastbourne usually run as 8 coaches but finding a 12 isn't out of this world. Cooksbridge can only handle 6 coaches, but that's about it. For trains that go beyond Eastbourne, they pretty much always divide there and leave only 4 coaches for that portion.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Can all stations to Epsom downs take 12 coaches? Including EPD itself?


According to Southern's departure board tool, the 22:41 Epsom Downs to London Victoria is booked also a 12 coaches.

No. Epsom Downs can only take a 10 car

12 coaches running CAT/TAT today

12 coaches won't fit in platform 5 or 6 at Purley. It wouldn't have been a 12 car

 

[James H]

Raised in Parliament last week:
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2022-09-22a.810.0#g823.6

There used to be two trains an hour from Penge West and Anerley stations in my constituency to London Bridge. Now there are none, and the number from Sydenham and Forest Hill stations has halved. Govia Thameslink tells me that, due to a reduction of Government funding in the 2021 spending review, it has had to cut capacity, but that is having a huge impact on my constituents’ ability to access employment, education and healthcare. Can we please have a debate in Government time about support for regional rail networks?

 

[Intro298]

Raised in Parliament last week:
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2022-09-22a.810.0#g823.6

Quite silly considering Crystal Palace, Norwood Junction and Sydenham all have direct services, and are all close to Anerley and Penge West, and you can just take Overground and have a 12 min change if you aren’t able to get to another station for some reason. There is no way it has a huge impact, you could even take southeastern from Lower Sydenham, New Beckenham or Clock House.

 

[James90012]

Whilst I've been broadly supportive in this thread about the change, I totally sympathise with people who's services are changing/disappearing without any meaningful consultation. Material changes like this should be assessed fully.

 

[Intro298]

Whilst I've been broadly supportive in this thread about the change, I totally sympathise with people who's services are changing/disappearing without any meaningful consultation. Material changes like this should be assessed fully.

I do understand that it isn't nice to get a service removed, but with stations in the area being so close to each other with a great bus network, I think that there has been a but of an overreaction.

 

[PGAT]

I do understand that it isn't nice to get a service removed, but with stations in the area being so close to each other with a great bus network, I think that there has been a but of an overreaction.

To put it lightly, Anerley and Penge West aren't important enough for change to come back. Would be very challenging to convince anyone higher up that an area with a plethora of bus routes and nearby stations needs it's services back (oh yeah and 4 trains an hour from LO). Also a consultation won't will a service back into existence just because everyone supports it.

 

[James90012]

I don't disagree, the choice has been made but part of the purpose of the consultation, in my view, is to try and convince those affected of the benefits which necessarily means analysis etc.

If you don't take people with you it creates a stink, and I am concerned that these changes have been made without things like Disability Impact Assessments etc being done.

The conclusion would probably be the same, but I don't think we should be OK with the move away from consultation and lack of transparency we have seen recently.

 

[PGAT]

It happened again lads.

 

[WizCastro197]

It happened again lads.

I suppose it is confirmed. Definitely not a data error now with the addition of Southern's recognition of the short platforms.


Maybe it is an unintentional operating error to operate 12 coaches


Why do Southern sometimes day Sutton London and then sometimes Sutton Surrey? I as someone who lives in Surrey, don't acknowledge Sutton as an area in Surrey.

 

[PGAT]

Why do Southern sometimes day Sutton London and then sometimes Sutton Surrey? I as someone who lives in Surrey, don't acknowledge Sutton as an area in Surrey.

Officially, it is in London, hasn't been in Surrey since 1965 and Sutton literally has its own borough.

 

[WizCastro197]

Officially, it is in London, hasn't been in Surrey since 1965 and Sutton literally has its own borough.

Yes that's why it is so confusing why people still say Sutton (Surrey)

 

[physics34]

Officially, it is in London, hasn't been in Surrey since 1965 and Sutton literally has its own borough.

Still Surrey from a postcode point of view, same situation as Croydon.

 

[louis97]

I suppose it is confirmed. Definitely not a data error now with the addition of Southern's recognition of the short platforms.


Maybe it is an unintentional operating error to operate 12 coaches


Why do Southern sometimes day Sutton London and then sometimes Sutton Surrey? I as someone who lives in Surrey, don't acknowledge Sutton as an area in Surrey.

Its because 377474 has a fault and must remain in multiple.

 

[PGAT]

But if all the Suttons are 8 coaches why was it coupled to 12 in the first place?

 

[louis97]

But if all the Suttons are 8 coaches why was it coupled to 12 in the first place?

Its a swap to ensure that particular unit ends at a depot. The units for that train come in off 1F63 and 1H69, it essentially ensures the right number of units end at Streatham Hill.

 

[387star]

Yes agreed that atrocious timings (total journey times and connections) are a feature of the line and especially between trains to or from Victoria terminating at Horsham and fast services on the Arun Valley coming north under the old timetable (where northbound fast Portsmouth services at Horsham arrived 2 minutes after services left Horsham for Victoria via Dorking). Now Southern's train planners have brilliantly much worsened that situation with the hourly southbound from Dorking also missing the Fast service connection to Portsmouth at Horsham by one minute and although northbound services via Dorking do now leave Horsham at 17 minutes rather than 14 minutes past the hour the 30 second connection northbound at Horsham this provides (scarcely enough time to rush between the trains on Platform 2 and Platform 1) will generally be missed as fast services up the Arun Valley corridor generally arrive at Horsham at least 2 to 3 minutes late the vast majority of the time.

But I think DfT's computer model probably only cared about reducing out of service platform dwell time on turnaround at Horsham on the services from Dorking, which it has substantially achieved but at the price of making the services so slow up the Mole Valley corridor that no long distance user starting at Horsham or south of it will want to consider them. But as fastest journey times from Horsham to Victoria via Gatwick are 53 minutes it would not be exactly hard to devise a once an hour service pattern north from Horsham that matched or exceeded that time.

One possibility that does strike me is why slow Arun Valley services simply can't continue running north from Horsham to Dorking stopping at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham (and vica versa) and then become the hourly fast service from Dorking only calling at probably Leatherhead, Epsom, Sutton and Clapham Junction. This then also makes it much easier to provide hourly services from Dorking to Horsham on Saturday evening and on Sundays. However the problem is passengers from Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Junction and Hackbridge who would clearly not accept only an hourly train service (as they don't have services that also go to Waterloo) but are not served by any other current train routes other than those travelling to Dorking and Horsham. Ashtead seems to have loads of services to Waterloo so I can't see why it also needs a slower twice an hour service from Dorking.

The OBS at Horsham today (Sunday) said change at Horsham for Dorking and Epsom. Must be a new Sunday service at last!

 

[WizCastro197]

The OBS at Horsham today (Sunday) said change at Horsham for Dorking and Epsom. Must be a new Sunday service at last!

Hmm?

Real time trains doesn’t show a service to dorking and or Epsom from Horsham?


OBS probably knew the service pattern there but not Sundays.

 

[387star]

I see Chichester has lost its two up and back London Bridge weekday peak trains. Not sure if Barnham still sign London Bridge but next Sunday engineering work sees London Victoria trains rerouted to London Bridge so it's not impossible

 

[Capvermell]

The OBS at Horsham today (Sunday) said change at Horsham for Dorking and Epsom. Must be a new Sunday service at last!

The On Board Supervisors seem to have become much more proactive about making announcements on arrival at Horsham since the new timetable was implemented on September 5th because it is now Russian Roulette from hour to hour as to whether passengers can manage to connect either Northbound to services to Dorking or Southbound to Portsmouth or Bognor Regis. In theory the Northbound connection should now nearly always be possible (before it was impossible as the train arrived 2 minutes after the train to Dorking left and trains to Dorking almost always leave on time because they have been waiting on Platform 1 to leave after arriving quite some minutes earlier) because there is a one minute (or in reality 30 seconds if you have a mean train crew on the Northbound Dorking line service) connection time while the connection to the Fast soutound service to Portsmouth should be impossible while you may usually just about catch the slow service to Bognor if you are lucky.

In reality trains incoming at Horsham from Victoria to be split and services from Bognor and Portsmouth to be joined are frequently a number of minutes late. This has resulted so far in me managing to connect with the Fast Portsmouth service twice and the Slow Bognor service once and missing both halves of the southbound trains another time. Conversely on the only occasion I have tried to make the 30 second cross platform connection to the North at Horsham I have missed it because the incoming Fast service from Portsmouth was late (as it usually is by a couple of minutes at least).

But anyway coming back to the alleged new Sunday service today (9th Oct) announced on an incoming Arun Valley Line train (whether slow or fast is not stated) Saturday was of course a strike day and I have managed to persuade Southern seemingly single handedly (although the resulting trains are being as well used as on a normal weekday) that it should run a special Dorking to Horsham shuttle service for most of the day (starting a little late and finish a couple of hours early) on post strike days rather than no service (or a Sunday Service as they liked to call it) on the day after rail strikes. Except that this provision does not appear to extend to post strike days where they are a Sunday because there is of course always no service on a Sunday between Dorking and Horsham for normal stopping trains, even though non stopping fast diversion trains from Gatwick Airport run a number of times a year.

So I would say the OBS simply forgot that it was a Sunday having been at home all day today here only a quarter of a mile east of the line just south of Ockley Station and not heard a single train sound its Klaxon approaching the Stylehurst foot crossing of the line south of Ockley all day long.

 

[ctrh136]

I see Chichester has lost its two up and back London Bridge weekday peak trains. Not sure if Barnham still sign London Bridge but next Sunday engineering work sees London Victoria trains rerouted to London Bridge so it's not impossible

Both were diverted to Victoria. I did see some complaints on social media but I personally think it was a bit weird that one service was diverted to London Bridge, leaving gaps in Victoria services.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Written answer raised by Helen Hayes MP Labour Dulwich & West Norwood on GTR service reductions

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2022-10-10/59080

Answer from Kevin Foster

The Department meets regularly with Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) and will continue to carefully monitor implementation of GTR’s recent and future timetable alterations as well as changes in demand to identify where further interventions in service level provision may be required.

GTR are making evidence-based timetable interventions to better optimise service levels to balance capacity and demand.

About as good you will get from a minister. Better she now requests the evidence be published

 

[PGAT]

When will the December timetabled be announced?

 

[OliverH68]

When will the December timetabled be announced?

It is already upstream on RTT.

 

[yorksrob]

Getting rid of the 455's and ending up with too few trains to run the service is nothing short of a disgrace.

 

[PGAT]

Getting rid of the 455's and ending up with too few trains to run the service is nothing short of a disgrace.

Would’ve been too expensive and not worth it to keep them. Although it is a disgrace that they jumped into this with insufficient replacements and plans to remove more of its fleet

 

[JonathanH]

Getting rid of the 455's and ending up with too few trains to run the service is nothing short of a disgrace.

There aren't too few trains to run the service. The services have been cut back because there is less demand, both actual and expected, and there are enough trains to run the resulting services.

 

[yorksrob]

There aren't too few trains to run the service. The services have been cut back because there is less demand, both actual and expected, and there are enough trains to run the resulting services.

Yes, I believe that is the party line.

 

[PGAT]

There aren't too few trains to run the service. The services have been cut back because there is less demand, both actual and expected, and there are enough trains to run the resulting services.

Not 100% true. The Horsham/Dorking trains, Watford Junction to East Croydon and Caterham/Tattenham Corner trains are being stretched to their absolute limits in terms of overcrowding.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Not 100% true. The Horsham/Dorking trains, Watford Junction to East Croydon and Caterham/Tattenham Corner trains are being stretched to their absolute limits in terms of overcrowding.

Which replicates what happened pre covid no?