Stand behind the line!

[Mojo]

London Underground really shouldn't be our goal for either passenger experience or passenger safety.

Yes don’t want the rest of the network to be too much of an efficient, customer focussed, safe railway as the Underground.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I was once at Motherwell station, and there were some football fans going into Glasgow for a match. Passengers on Platform 2 at Motherwell like to converge near where the entrance to stairs up to the ticket office are.

Anyway, the announcements at Motherwell for a fast train have a tendency to trigger very late.

The group of fans were scarily close to the platform edge, and no sooner had the announcement finished, barely giving anyone time to react or move back, a 390 came through at 80mph blasting the horn.

I think it's incidents like that that make staff get a bit on edge when it comes to people standing close to the edge of the platform. All for good reason though, but a rude approach isn't needed. (Like at Piccadilly 13/14 where if you even put a toe over the red line, you get barked at!)

 

[Bertie the bus]

I agree completely that stations where trains hammer through should have yellow lines but the irony is that many of those stations where there is a danger don’t have platform staff so no barking. It is the ones that don’t have trains hammering through but have staff standing a few feet from passengers aggressively shouting at them I have issues with. As already mentioned on this thread Avanti managed stations are just awful places. How anyone can consider their behaviour acceptable is beyond me.

 

[Jimini]

I agree completely that stations where trains hammer through should have yellow lines but the irony is that many of those stations where there is a danger don’t have platform staff so no barking. It is the ones that don’t have trains hammering through but have staff standing a few feet from passengers aggressively shouting at them I have issues with. As already mentioned on this thread Avanti managed stations are just awful places. How anyone can consider their behaviour acceptable is beyond me.

Coventry being a perfect example!

 

[GusB]

If a rude approach from a member of staff makes the difference between a live passenger and a dead passenger, I'm all for it.

When a child crawls towards the fire, do you gently suggest that it's not a good idea or haul them back and tell them "no, it's burny"?

 

[Skymonster]

Derby the other day, where there is no line other than those rumble-strip things. Please note I don’t deliberately make a habit of standing close to the platform edge but on this occasion the platform was fairly busy and it was the only way to move along. Plus I’m fed up of EMR staff rudely shouting at people so after much previous docile compliance I decided to have a debate…

EMR staff rushing down the platform, shouting and waving their arms, no train anywhere in sight.
“Stand behind the line.”
I waved at them.
”Stand behind the line.”
I waved back at them again. They get closer.
”Stand behind the line.”
I said: “I think you mean ‘stand behind the line, PLEASE.’”
”It’s for your safety.”
”Still doesn’t hurt for you to be polite. And thank you for your thoughtful concern but I’m quite prepared to take personal responsibility for my own safety.”
“Just stand behind the line.”
”Ah, that missing word again - please. And what line is that, there is no line?”
”Behind these tiles.”
”OK, well why don’t you say that then. And there are no signs, so how is anyone to know this is a no go area.”
Still no train anywhere in sight on the approaches or in any platform…

No doubt some johnny do-gooder will come along shortly to say I was wasting staff time, distracting them from their duty, etc. But they are working in a service industry and need to be polite and understand that, otherwise they are in the wrong job.

 

[Sultan]

I noticed at Stratford Overground platform 2 the tactile element is in front of the yellow line. Does this mean visually-impaired users have to cross the yellow line to walk down the platform?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I noticed at Stratford Overground platform 2 the tactile element is in front of the yellow line. Does this mean visually-impaired users have to cross the yellow line to walk down the platform?

The tactile paving is meant to signify that there is danger past it, the intention isn't that you walk down it.

 

[zwk500]

Derby the other day, where there is no line other than those rumble-strip things. Please note I don’t deliberately make a habit of standing close to the platform edge but on this occasion the platform was fairly busy and it was the only way to move along. Plus I’m fed up of EMR staff rudely shouting at people so after much previous docile compliance I decided to have a debate…

No doubt some johnny do-gooder will come along shortly to say I was wasting staff time, distracting them from their duty, etc. But they are working in a service industry and need to be polite and understand that, otherwise they are in the wrong job.

You weren't distracting them from their duty, but you were being a prat about making your point. What was wrong with stepping back and saying 'excuse me, but next time could you ask politely first, I think it would get better results'?

 

[Sultan]

The tactile paving is meant to signify that there is danger past it, the intention isn't that you walk down it.

Ah, thanks. Some tactile paving I've seen does do this but obviously not the stuff towards the edge of the platform.

There are a vast number of stations where that is not remotely practical. It's not even practical on the London Underground.

You weren't distracting them from their duty, but you were being a prat about making your point. What was wrong with stepping back and saying 'excuse me, but next time could you ask politely first, I think it would get better results'?

Many people wear earphones these days, some with noise-cancellation. It takes a loud voice to make your point sometimes!

 

[The exile]

The tactile paving is meant to signify that there is danger past it, the intention isn't that you walk down it.

Still begs the question of why tactile paving is installed nearer to the platform edge than the yellow line you cross at your peril!

 

[DustyBin]

For the reason above I wouldn’t state it’s flawed at all.

In an emergency situation it is much more appropriate and commanding to be blunt and straight to the point.

I’ve bolded the relevant part here. We’re not talking about an emergency situation.

If a rude approach from a member of staff makes the difference between a live passenger and a dead passenger, I'm all for it.

When a child crawls towards the fire, do you gently suggest that it's not a good idea or haul them back and tell them "no, it's burny"?

This is another flawed analogy though isn’t it, for the same reason as above (plus I presume we’re talking about adults here).

The issue is that some staff appear to treating everybody the same, regardless of the situation. By all means shout at the idiots who like to teeter on the platform edge, whilst wearing headphones and glued to their phone as they deserve it. However, that response isn’t appropriate in the majority of instances.

That said (and for the avoidance of doubt!) I wouldn’t personally stand close to the platform edge when a train is approaching, as I completely understand how this is disconcerting for drivers, and indeed platform staff, regardless of the risk to myself.

 

[py_megapixel]

It still blows my mind how many people I see cycling on a platform, and often close to the edge too. I’ve even seen some pull wheelies on bikes on the platform, which terrified me to see, frankly.

Occasionally you see people riding skateboards on platforms as well. At least on a bike, you can stop quickly, though I still wouldn't want to ride (or be hit by) one on a platform!

 

[Stampy]

Is there a genuine reason why people feel the need to stand so close to the edge? PTI incidents are always top of the list, trips and falls too/from trains amongst the highest within that category. (My TOCs latest safety brief)

In my personal experience :- to make sure that THEY are 1st onto the train to get a seat....

I was changing trains at Manchester Piccadilly back in May and the platform was busy, and there was a message to "stand back behind the yellow line" even BEFORE my connecting train came in..

As it pulled into the platform (14, I think) the "stand back" message was repeated with a "to allow passengers OFF the train first" added..

Literally as the train stopped, most people surged forwards towards the doors - blocking them for people trying to get off...

 

[miklcct]

Literally as the train stopped, most people surged forwards towards the doors - blocking them for people trying to get off...

Platform markings can stop this from happening. Each door position is marked on the ground such that people can queue orderly to board the train.

Maybe the people on the forum should visit other countries where trains are much more efficient and reliable.

 

[Titfield]

Sad to say "the shouting at passengers" seems to have spread to at least one heritage railway. I was at Swanage Railway recently and witnessed a volunteer almost purple faced with rage shouting at a small group of passengers to "get behind the line" even though the oncoming locomotive was approaching at just over walking pace (Swanage is a terminus station with buffer stops (actually a plank of wood)).

 

[Dr Hoo]

Sad to say "the shouting at passengers" seems to have spread to at least one heritage railway. I was at Swanage Railway recently and witnessed a volunteer almost purple faced with rage shouting at a small group of passengers to "get behind the line" even though the oncoming locomotive was approaching at just over walking pace (Swanage is a terminus station with buffer stops (actually a plank of wood)).

Surely even more important on a heritage line where most passengers will be unused to un-locked slam doors?
(I did notice that you said “locomotive” but the great majority of moves will include carriages too.)

 

[swt_passenger]

Are you going to pay to scrap every train in the country and replace them with a new standardised one?

It‘s probably the way it’s done in Hong Kong already…

 

[185]

At Manchester Piccadilly, on Platform 13/14 passengers must stand behind the red line infront of the green line, next to the yellow line but no further than the blue line.

150+ people in vis vests from rentamob will stood blocking the 'safe' 2.7 feet of platform remaining, ensuring passengers walk closer to the edge, so they can be told off.

And someone who sounds like a cat stuck in a vacuum cleaner with a foreign incomprehensible accent will shout down the tannoy. In Swahili. Backwards.

This could only happen on planet 13 /14.

 

[Bikeman78]

London Underground really shouldn't be our goal for either passenger experience or passenger safety.

Generally I find they move lots of people from A to B with minimal fuss. Granted the deep level stations are hot and unpleasant in the summer.

It still blows my mind how many people I see cycling on a platform, and often close to the edge too. I’ve even seen some pull wheelies on bikes on the platform, which terrified me to see, frankly.

In practical terms, is it any more terrifying than a cyclist sharing a road with an HGV?

 

[Scott1]

In practical terms, is it any more terrifying than a cyclist sharing a road with an HGV?

I'd say less so. You go under a HGV or a train the result will be the same, but a train isn't able to turn in front of you.

In regards to the more general comment of not saying please when asked to stand back. If someone is stood next to me and says it I'd expect a please, but if it is shouted down from, say, 10 meters away I wouldn't expect a please. Not sure why, I just expect something being called over a distance to be shorter and more 'to the point'.

Of course one thing that does seem clear is no one here doesn't know they shouldn't stand on the edge of the platform, or over the yellow line, which begs the question why you expect to be treated to so much courtesy when you choose to ignore a rule you quite obviously understand until someone tells you what to do?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The red-line nonsense at Piccadilly is a different game - standing the wrong side of the yellow line is just silly, don't do it in the first place.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The red-line nonsense at Piccadilly is a different game - standing the wrong side of the yellow line is just silly, don't do it in the first place.

I know that it isn’t well explained or delineated but the basic idea (as I currently understand it) is that the area within the red lines is intended to act as a ‘virtual waiting “room”’.
The strip between the red and yellow lines is intended for walking to a different part of the platform (e.g. to then join the red area reasonably close to the front of the train, close to expected seat reservation or first class).
(Whether this idea is ‘managed’ or communicated in a clear, courteous and effective way is a slightly different issue.)

 

[yorkie]

Speculative discussion regarding the possibility of installing platform edge doors can be found at: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-all-stations-get-platform-edge-doors.234027

 

[swt_passenger]

I know that it isn’t well explained or delineated but the basic idea (as I currently understand it) is that the area within the red lines is intended to act as a ‘virtual waiting “room”’.
The strip between the red and yellow lines is intended for walking to a different part of the platform (e.g. to then join the red area reasonably close to the front of the train, close to expected seat reservation or first class).
(Whether this idea is ‘managed’ or communicated in a clear, courteous and effective way is a slightly different issue.)

We had a six page thread about it 3 or 4 weeks ago. I think the explanation is in there. Theres a link to it in post #2.

 

[TFN]

Heathrow’s Rail stations have the normal yellow line but they have a blue line further in to advise people to stand behind and people mostly follow it.

Originally it was for social distancing but now it’s to allow a corridor for people to move down the platform in, not putting themselves or their luggage close to the platform edge. It does seem to work quite well.

 

[whistler2018]

What you have to remember is that, if the worst happens and someone goes under a train, it’s the platform staff who’ll likely been hauled in front of the coroner and perhaps a court of law explaining why they didn’t keep people back from the platform edge which is part of their duties.

In a lot of cases, where room allows, the yellow line indicates a safe working distance from the platform edge under the rulebook instructions. What it does for platform staff is give them a visual aid that passengers can also see and is more tangible than just asking them to just ‘stand back’ from the edge. In my experience, when the lines first got painted at the station I used to work at, it was far easier to get people to comply than before they were there. The amount of times I used to ask people to stand back and they’d shuffle an inch or two to only return to their original position shortly after (some people are deliberately obtuse when asked to do things).

The other fact is that staff aren’t just doing it to be a jobsworth or to enjoy some sort of little power trip, which is often the response you’d get. They’re doing it to protect you and others from harm and themselves from prosecution. Sadly as behaviours have got worse over the past few years it does sometimes require a bit more force behind the message and, to be fair, on a busy platform they’re not there to be your friends, they’re there to get the job done. If it seems impolite or brusque I’d suggest worrying about the bigger things in life than someone doing their job effectively. If they’re being downright rude, that’s another matter though…

 

[TUC]

It is bizarre that such issues seem left to discretion of individual stations, so that a platform judged perfectly safe in one location is covered with red lines in another. Of course there should be the scope for individual judgment at specific stations, but that should be within the context of clear, consistent national principles.

 

[gmaguire]

Was he stood beyond the yellow line? That seems to be the case more often than not when I've seen members of staff shouting at people to stand behind. Quite apart from the hypocrisy of it, it's not exactly setting a good example, is it?!

I think he was behind the line

 

[Tomnick]

”Still doesn’t hurt for you to be polite. And thank you for your thoughtful concern but I’m quite prepared to take personal responsibility for my own safety.”

The problem with this response, as a driver, is that you might well be prepared to take personal responsibility for your own safety and have made a conscious decision to stand beyond the yellow line - but I, as I approach the platform (especially if it's at speed), don't know that, so I have to make a decision based wholly on what I can see in that instant, which is often someone standing far too close to the edge. Do they know that I'm approaching? What if they stumble? Will they unexpectedly move even closer? Are they intending to jump?

I'm not at all precious about the yellow line, and even less so about the red line where there is one, but it does form a useful demarcation and anyone standing in isolation beyond it stands out as an obvious risk to me. If I, in that instant, decide that I need to respond by banging the brake in, or worse if the unthinkable actually happens, you can be sure that the platform bod will be under a lot of pressure to answer some difficult questions, so I don't blame them at all for challenging you.

The manner of the challenge is a different question, of course. My only comment there is to suggest that, whilst I find it preferable and more effective generally to be polite, sometimes the circumstances dictate that a shorter and sharper warning is more appropriate. I can't say whether that's the case in your example.