Stansted 317s

[O L Leigh]

Well there were several attempts to get rid of the Cl322's but they kept coming back.

The first time they went away was in 1997 to First NorthWestern for the Man Picc to Euston service though they came back again two years later. By this time the Cl317/7's were coming into use and, as the Cl322's were non-standard, they had no specific use. So they went away again in 2000, this time to ScotRail. They had them for a while before in turn transferring them back south in 2004. By this time, WAGN had merged with FGE and Anglia to form 'one' railways, so the Cl322's were inter-worked with GE's Cl321 units on peak time services to permit the final withdrawal of the last Cl312 slammers. A year later they headed back north once again to FScR where they were refurbished and remain to this day.

O L Leigh

 

[Aictos]

And looking a million miles away from the original decor, still can't complain as they're ideal for the North Berwick route.

 

[jopsuk]

Are the 322s sufficiently different in technical terms to truly "justify" their own class number, or would they have been better numbered as a 321 subclass? Were they just given their own number due to being built for Skytrain?

 

[O L Leigh]

Not really. They were just standard "Bins" but with a different interior (2+2 seating and luggage racks).

Mind you, what level of difference is required in order to justify the allocation of a different class number? Other class numbers have been issued for fewer differences.

O L Leigh

 

[Helvellyn]

Aren't the 322s due to come back to NXEA once SctRail get their 380s in service? I wonder if they'll then be converted to 321s, or remain as a separate class?

 

[GospelOak117]

Once the 379's arrive and all four subclasses of NXEA's 317's are used to strengthen other West Anglia services, would this also result in a significant reduction in 315 operations on the West Anglia side? As if Crossrail goes ahead (im confused about the status of this atm) then the 315's will be replaced on the GE side leaving a smaller batch kicking around on West Anglia needing replacement; yet if the 317's could completely take over WA suburbans now, all 315's could perhaps be replaced as one GE fleet when the time comes.

Thanks

 

[DjU]

As if Crossrail goes ahead (im confused about the status of this atm) then the 315's will be replaced on the GE side leaving a smaller batch kicking around on West Anglia needing replacement; yet if the 317's could completely take over WA suburbans now, all 315's could perhaps be replaced as one GE fleet when the time comes.

Thanks

Even when Crossrail takes over the GE Metro route it will only be 12tph, there will still be a residual service in the peaks to the existing Liverpool Street station on the Metro which will presumably still utilise the 315s.

Obviously Crossrail will create a huge surplus in the 315s fleet but not eradicate them. What happens to surplus, who knows but it'll be approaching 38 years old by then.

Of course any schemes for fleet replacements could happen in the interim!

 

[O L Leigh]

As I understand it, yes there will be a reduction in Cl315 numbers operating on the WA side once all the Cl379's are in service. But this will not result in a total eradication of the class from these routes as I do not believe that the number of Cl317's cascaded, less those to be used to strengthen other WA services, would be sufficient to see off the Cl315's entirely.

What effect Crossrail will have remains to be seen. As has been hinted, it's still a very long way off and I'm not entirely convinced that the entire GE Metro service (including any running into Liv St mainline) won't pass from the Greater Anglia franchise entirely and go across to TfL/LOROL. We shall see.

O L Leigh

 

[GospelOak117]

As I understand it, yes there will be a reduction in Cl315 numbers operating on the WA side once all the Cl379's are in service. But this will not result in a total eradication of the class from these routes as I do not believe that the number of Cl317's cascaded, less those to be used to strengthen other WA services, would be sufficient to see off the Cl315's entirely.

I really hope the introduction of the 379's goes smoothly then!! Not that I dislike the 315's particularly, but after nearly 20 years of their complete monopoly of the West Anglian Suburbans, the higher chance of a much loved (and remotely comfortable) 317 turning up would be a welcome relief.

 

[jon0844]

Can't the 315s be given a refresh like the FCC 313s - or even better, like Southern have done/are doing on their 'new' 313s?

I am certain that the 313s can last another million years quite easily. In fact, if we ever find another habitable planet to love on in the future, I'm sure we'll take them with us.

 

[jopsuk]

If we're doing speculation, I'd wonder if the GE Metro goes TfL whether the West Anglia (Chingford/Enfield/Chesunt) might as well? 378s perhaps?

 

[LE Greys]

Even when Crossrail takes over the GE Metro route it will only be 12tph, there will still be a residual service in the peaks to the existing Liverpool Street station on the Metro which will presumably still utilise the 315s.

Obviously Crossrail will create a huge surplus in the 315s fleet but not eradicate them. What happens to surplus, who knows but it'll be approaching 38 years old by then.

Of course any schemes for fleet replacements could happen in the interim!

Another bit of complete speculation, but it is quite possible that there will be an extended production run of Crossrail-type units for inner-suburban duties on both sides of the tunnel. This makes it possible to electrify to Greenford, Windsor, Bourne End and Henley, as well as replacing all the 315s, and also gives interoperability for the fleet. Costs down, quality up. Perhaps they could consider a d.c. version as well to replace both the Merseyrail stock and the 455s. Perhaps even our own 313s on the Moorgate route.

 

[87015]

More likely to have 315s than 317s on WA Inners (including Hertfords) as they are better at quick stop-start work, more reliable and need less work doing to be brought up to future 'standards'.

Or thats what HLOS+ says...

 

[A0wen]

Another bit of complete speculation, but it is quite possible that there will be an extended production run of Crossrail-type units for inner-suburban duties on both sides of the tunnel. This makes it possible to electrify to Greenford, Windsor, Bourne End and Henley, as well as replacing all the 315s, and also gives interoperability for the fleet. Costs down, quality up. Perhaps they could consider a d.c. version as well to replace both the Merseyrail stock and the 455s. Perhaps even our own 313s on the Moorgate route.

Chances are it'll be a development of either a Electro/Capitalstar or Desiro. No point in designing a new unit from the ground up when there are suitable designs already in use.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If we're doing speculation, I'd wonder if the GE Metro goes TfL whether the West Anglia (Chingford/Enfield/Chesunt) might as well? 378s perhaps?

I doubt it'll be passed to TFL at all. The Watford - Euston and NLL services were pretty self-contained and losing them from the franchise for the WCML suburban wasn't a major problem. Probably should have been done when originally franchised.

I can't see the operators on the GE, WA or GN lines taking the same view, particularly given the way the inners / outers have been so closely integrated over the years even to the extent of swapping the stock between the two.

 

[O L Leigh]

Can't the 315s be given a refresh like the FCC 313s - or even better, like Southern have done/are doing on their 'new' 313s?

Oh please, not this old chestnut again.

The fact of the matter is that the work done to refurb the Cl315's will stand them in better stead for the future than the refresh that FCC and Southern have done with their Cl313's. Whether people like the low-backed seating or not, it is a practical and functional metro unit that is lighter and airier inside than the FCC Cl313's.

If we're doing speculation, I'd wonder if the GE Metro goes TfL whether the West Anglia (Chingford/Enfield/Chesunt) might as well? 378s perhaps?

It is a persistent rumour that WA Inners will go to TfL along with Chingford depot. Whether that means new stock or not is another question entirely. However, rumours are always going around the railway about one thing or another and it frequently means nothing.

More likely to have 315s than 317s on WA Inners (including Hertfords) as they are better at quick stop-start work, more reliable and need less work doing to be brought up to future 'standards'.

Cl315's only require less work because half of it has been done already.

As for comparative performance, the Cl315's are only better at the 2 minute intervals you get on the true Inners. Hertford has extended periods of higher speed running that actually suits the Cl317's better. Cl315's may be sharper out of the blocks but they run out of puff very quickly. A Cl317 will hit 80mph easily between Cheshunt and Broxbourne where a Cl315 may never reach it's maximum speed of 75mph.

O L Leigh

 

[The_Stig]

I have to say, I just looked up the cl313 and they are much better (interior wise) than ScotRail's cl314's.

If they (314's) are are expected to remain in service until 2015 (or even 2019 like I have heard) they need an interior refresh soon!

 

[O L Leigh]

We don't have any Cl314's.

O L Leigh

 

[The_Stig]

We don't have any Cl314's.

O L Leigh

Yeah, sorry, I meant to compare the class 313's to ScotRail 314's, I will edit my post.

That's part of the problem watching the football whilst on the laptop!

 

[jon0844]

I can't comment on the mechanicals which may mean the 315s are better than the 313s, but I have always said I prefer the interior on the 313s to the old Silverlink 313s or the 315s. I will agree that the latter are more airy though!

I'm intrigued to see what Southern eventually does with its 313s and merely pointed out that all of the trains from that family, and era, could easily outlive us all!

Not so sure about the 317s, as I was stuck on one that lost all power and coasted to a halt at Alexandra Palace tonight (on the down fast too, so no way to be detrained). Not sure what happened there, but these are the trains that always seem to delay me if something goes wrong.

 

[O L Leigh]

Not so sure about the 317s, as I was stuck on one that lost all power and coasted to a halt at Alexandra Palace tonight (on the down fast too, so no way to be detrained). Not sure what happened there, but these are the trains that always seem to delay me if something goes wrong.

Did the driver get it going again or was it the overheads?

The problem with faults on all units of this vintage is that they almost all require you to stop and investigate. However, they can normally be persuaded to go again quite readily. I have never had to declare any train a total failure and require assistance, and only twice had to assist another failed train (though on one of those occasions the driver had actually fixed the fault after declaring his train failed and requesting assistance).

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

I was at the front of the train, and when the lights went out (emergency lights only), I could also tell we were slowing down - but it's quite amazing to see how far they can coast! I think the power went not long after leaving Finsbury Park, so the train wasn't even at full speed before slowing.

The information screens went off next, or were turned off, but remained operational for a while (so they must work on backup power I presume?). Then we came to a stand right by the two platforms at Alexandra Palace - sadly on a line not next to either!

The driver then made an announcement about signalling problems (!) when I could hear him on the radio saying he'd lost power. The lines were working I presume, as we had trains passing on both sides.

Eventually, after around 10 minutes, the lights came back on and he obviously got things started. He was being told things over the radio, and despite the age of the train it still seemed like a case of resetting and rebooting almost as you would on one of the many new plastic trains.

I can see that the train made up time before getting to Cambridge, and given we were on the fast line for a bit, we were really going for it when we did get moving! Clearly there was no fault with any motors!

The driver DID give an explanation but sadly when he did so, a train went by AND we entered a tunnel by New Southgate. There's no way anyone onboard would have heard unless they were right under the speaker.

 

[Aictos]

The information I have state it was the overheads tripping in the section between Finsbury Park and Wood Green with the only two trains in the area checked and all okay.

I reckon the last poster was on 317343,

 

[O L Leigh]

As I mentioned above, there is very little you can do in the cab of one of these things. There are one or two tricks you can try once at a stand to assist with fault-finding, but a sudden loss of power with no fault indications usually points to a problem with the overheads. Presumably this is why he didn't come out the cab to check the flags and breakers in the middle of the unit.

I've had similar problems myself on a few occasions. All you can do is go through your mental checklist of faults and fault indications and then wait for the juice to be turned back on.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

The information I have state it was the overheads tripping in the section between Finsbury Park and Wood Green with the only two trains in the area checked and all okay.

I reckon the last poster was on 317343,

I think you're right too!! Given I am sad enough to recall that this train has the counters on the door, and that this was perhaps the first FCC train to be given the new external livery!

It was the 1918 service to Cambridge.

I was also quite happy for it to be late, given that I don't take this train normally because it gets to Hatfield just after my bus has left and therefore means a 25 minute wait until the next one!!

 

[Aictos]

Yep, certainly working the 1918.