Stansted 317s

[Intercity]

When the new class 379s take over this route, what is expected to happen to the 21 317s that are currently on that route, probably a few too many to just strengthen services on the west anglia route?

 

[Aictos]

When the new class 379s take over this route, what is expected to happen to the 21 317s that are currently on that route, probably a few too many to just strengthen services on the west anglia route?

Stay on the route maybe? they won't leave NXEA, that's for sure!

 

[LE Greys]

No plans to swap some of them for FCC's 321s?

 

[Intercity]

No plans to swap some of them for FCC's 321s?

that would make sense, it does seem a bit strange that both companies have both 317/321s given that they perform very similar roles.

 

[LE Greys]

Given the choice, I'd do it the other way round, hand over the twelve FCC 317s in exchange for more Bins. Mind you, I'd have diagrammed NXEC's Cambridge services for Bins and the Shenfield and Braintree services for 7s.

 

[Aictos]

FCC 317s for NXEA 321s? Agreed, as long as they're 321/4s!

 

[87015]

FCC 317s for NXEA 321s? Agreed, as long as they're 321/4s!

Surely if anything it makes sense to give as many NXEA 317/1s as possible (I don't think FCC would need all of them) to FCC and the 321s to IL to give FCC a uniform fleet of units they are far more used to and keep the GE outer fleet as 321/360 rather than becoming 317/321/360. The 13 FCC 321s should more than cover any planned GE 317 turns.

 

[jon0844]

I really pity people needing to catch a flight on time if Bombardier are making the Stansted trains!

 

[LE Greys]

TBH, I think that the 321s are better suited to the ECML than Lea Valley routes. They don't get much chance to use the extra power from their motors without longish stretches of fast running. Liverpool Street-Cambridge is another matter, but they don't operate that either. So it's not just that I want Bins on my home line, they seem better suited to it than 7s.

As for the 379s, it might have made more sense to use an a.c. version of the 444, for commonality with the 360s. However, I'd rather use Pacers than bring in more Desiros.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

The Stansted 317's are staying with NXEA and are being used to strengthen other West Anglia services (making some much needed 12 coach services)

 

[royaloak]

As for the 379s, it might have made more sense to use an a.c. version of the 444, for commonality with the 360s.

The jigs for the 444s were scrapped after the order was completed so Siemens cannot build anymore unless they build all new (very expensive) jigs. Anybody that thinks this would be a cheap job is sadly mistaken.

 

[87015]

The Stansted 317's are staying with NXEA and are being used to strengthen other West Anglia services (making some much needed 12 coach services)

Almost certainly not all of them, there are only a few Cambridge line services that loadings indicate require 12 cars and at least one of them should be 379s. 317s won't be fitted with SDO so where you can take a 12 car workings will be heavily limited by that.

Should see 12 car 317s heading out on the GE side for over a hundred miles though

 

[Pumbaa]

Should see 12 car 317s heading out on the GE side for over a hundred miles though

Bet they're going to love that!!

 

[dk1]

The jigs for the 444s were scrapped after the order was completed so Siemens cannot build anymore unless they build all new (very expensive) jigs. Anybody that thinks this would be a cheap job is sadly mistaken.

I cannot believe that for one minute. If Siemens where offered a good enough contract they would bid for it in the blink of an eye.

 

[royaloak]

The jigs for the 444s were scrapped after the order was completed so Siemens cannot build anymore unless they build all new (very expensive) jigs. Anybody that thinks this would be a cheap job is sadly mistaken.

I cannot believe that for one minute. If Siemens where offered a good enough contract they would bid for it in the blink of an eye.

Whether you believe it or not it is true!
Siemens probably would bid, but they would have to factor in the costs of new jigs, as I said!

 

[O L Leigh]

Almost certainly not all of them, there are only a few Cambridge line services that loadings indicate require 12 cars and at least one of them should be 379s. 317s won't be fitted with SDO so where you can take a 12 car workings will be heavily limited by that.

There are no plans to migrate any of the Cl317's onto the GE side. If anything there will be a migration of Cl315's with some of the Cl317's ending up on WA inner-suburban diagrams and others currently covered by Cl315's (hopefully including the morning peak Hertford services that currently use Cl315's).

As for SDO, well believe it or not that particular feature is currently under consideration as part of a package of upgrades that might include Electrostar-style onboard DOO cameras and in-cab monitors. Even if the SDO system used is similar to the crude door cut-out switch used on the FCC units to permit them to operate as 8 car formations calling all stations from Cambridge to Royston it will be enough to allow for 12 car services to call all stations.

O L Leigh

 

[LE Greys]

Whether you believe it or not it is true!
Siemens probably would bid, but they would have to factor in the costs of new jigs, as I said!

Put that under 'own goals'!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm still not entirely clear about what will end up working what. I hope that the 7s get pulled from the Cambridge services (which should have parity with StanstEx) and I also hope that a few extra Bins are transferred our (GN) way. However, that's just hope. What's actually happening?

There are no plans to migrate any of the Cl317's onto the GE side. If anything there will be a migration of Cl315's with some of the Cl317's ending up on WA inner-suburban diagrams and others currently covered by Cl315's (hopefully including the morning peak Hertford services that currently use Cl315's).

That makes sense. I'm not sure what they will reinforce, but it makes sense.

 

[jopsuk]

There's not enough 379s being ordered to use them for (most) cambridge services- I think it's being suggested that a couple of peak services will use them, but it seems a tokenistic gensture at best.

 

[Oracle]

Is it not correct that Siemens sub-contracted the 444 bodyshells to an (Austrian?) company that scrapped the jigs?

 

[Aictos]

Even if the SDO system used is similar to the crude door cut-out switch used on the FCC units to permit them to operate as 8 car formations calling all stations from Cambridge to Royston it will be enough to allow for 12 car services to call all stations.

O L Leigh

Technically although the trains between Cambridge and Royston can run as a 8 car formation, the switch simply just locks the rear unit out of use so passengers can only use the front unit as the villages between Royston and Cambridge can only take a 4 car train.

 

[jon0844]

Given that drivers have forgotten the length of their trains, hence the issues at stations like Hatfield, what safeguards are there in place to ensure a driver of an 8-car train doesn't forget to lock out the rear unit?

 

[royaloak]

Given that drivers have forgotten the length of their trains, hence the issues at stations like Hatfield, what safeguards are there in place to ensure a driver of an 8-car train doesn't forget to lock out the rear unit?

A DSM with a base-ball bat! That should help.

 

[Aictos]

Given that drivers have forgotten the length of their trains, hence the issues at stations like Hatfield, what safeguards are there in place to ensure a driver of an 8-car train doesn't forget to lock out the rear unit?

Because it's not just down to the driver to ensure the rear unit is locked out of use as station staff at both Cambridge and Royston have to assist in the isolation or de-isolation of the rear unit.

As well as having to actually communicate with each other which ought to prevent such issues.

Like the DSM comment though!

 

[delt1c]

seen 317.882 several times this week in all over white with full stanstead express branding, not sure if it is just waiting the application of the grey or if it is remaining in this livery. Interestingly it suits the 317.

 

[starrymarkb]

Put that under 'own goals'!

Not really - its been what 6 years since the order was completed. Siemens are now producing 20m Desiro v1.5* (the Class 380) with v2.0 (Thameslink) in the design stage. I imagine they have scrapped the old jigs now or will be soon

*New bodyshell on existing bogies - new bogies to feature in the next batch

 

[Daniel]

seen 317.882 several times this week in all over white with full stanstead express branding, not sure if it is just waiting the application of the grey or if it is remaining in this livery. Interestingly it suits the 317.

Some pics, here, too

http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=432893&postcount=473

 

[317 forever]

Although class 317s are my favourite trains of that generation, I was genuinely surprised when they took over from class 322s on the Stansted Express. If anything a few class 317s could transfer to FCC and a few 313s join others that recently migrated to Southern.

 

[DjU]

If anything a few class 317s could transfer to FCC and a few 313s join others that recently migrated to Southern.

FCC are in the process of getting 3x more 313s and will likely use its extra 8x 321s that is has received to enable a jiggle around in the fleet to remove the last few 313 that go to King Cross in the Weekday peaks.

All of this is to enable full 6-car formations on the Northern City Line.

Doubt they be wanting to loose any Dual Voltage 313s for AC 317s

 

[O L Leigh]

Although class 317s are my favourite trains of that generation, I was genuinely surprised when they took over from class 322s on the Stansted Express.

It was simply a case of numbers.

There were a total of just five Cl322's, which was fine when the old Stansted Skytrain service was inaugurated because the passenger numbers through the airport was so low. However, as traffic has increased so has the requirement for more units. The current level of service requires the use of seven "sets" of units which are most often formed of two units each. This means a minimum requirement of 14 units operational at all times plus maintenance spares and so on.

All that aside, the WAGN Cl317/7 conversions offer a far higher standard of accommodation than the old Cl322's together with the added flexibility offered by having gangways throughout the train. With a few extra tweaks (sealing up the window vents and replacing the air-driven doors with electrically-driven doors that close automatically on timers) they really could be as good as brand new trains.

O L Leigh

 

[317 forever]

It was simply a case of numbers.

There were a total of just five Cl322's, which was fine when the old Stansted Skytrain service was inaugurated because the passenger numbers through the airport was so low. However, as traffic has increased so has the requirement for more units. The current level of service requires the use of seven "sets" of units which are most often formed of two units each. This means a minimum requirement of 14 units operational at all times plus maintenance spares and so on.

All that aside, the WAGN Cl317/7 conversions offer a far higher standard of accommodation than the old Cl322's together with the added flexibility offered by having gangways throughout the train. With a few extra tweaks (sealing up the window vents and replacing the air-driven doors with electrically-driven doors that close automatically on timers) they really could be as good as brand new trains.

O L Leigh

Thank you for your informative explanation of the reason for the change. I had noticed the increase in usage of Stansted Express due to the upsurge in air travel from Stansted but had not thought of the impact on rail operations. Mind you, the class 322s are similar to class 321s so could perhaps have become spares on class 321 lines.