Stansted Airport station queues and railcard app not working

[Bletchleyite]

X did not ask me to show the ticket/railcard to the other staff member. X asked me to queue for that staff member, apparently to discuss the faulty railcard app with them. For an ongoing technical issue which the industry is already aware of, there is nothing to discuss.

Perhaps throw that back at you then, what outcome would you like to see that can reasonably be achieved?

If you want the railway to fix its processes, we all know it won't.

I can't see a complaint about this bringing you any benefit, and it could (not certain to but could) cause you problems.

I'd be astonished if you got an apology because you were partly in the wrong; your reaction was that of a fare dodger.

I totally understand why you're angry and aggrieved - this is all very unfair. But again we deal with what is, not what we would want to be.

 

[jumble]

Because it is a strict liability matter, like speeding. Your intent, or your precautions taken to avoid committing the offence, are not material to your guilt. It is not a good situation but it is what it is.

Would this apply if I was sold a ticket with faulty ink and that ink simply rubbed off in my pocket leaving a blank ticket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would this apply if I was sold a ticket with faulty ink and that ink simply rubbed off in my pocket leaving a blank ticket?

If your ticket is illegible, yes, it's invalid. Season ticket holders who sometimes do experience that sort of issue need to exchange it before it becomes totally illegible.

The ink can't however "rub off" because it's not ink, it's thermal printing. It can however fade over time particularly if left in the sun.

 

[spag23]

It seems that if the RPI had left his spectacles at home and so was unable to read a passenger's railcard, some on this forum would still blame the passenger. It the operator has not made it possible for a valid railcard to be read (due to vision defects or an IT issue), surely no fault lies with the passenger.

 

[island]

Would this apply if I was sold a ticket with faulty ink and that ink simply rubbed off in my pocket leaving a blank ticket?

Ink has not been used in the issuance of National Rail tickets since (I believe) 2007, when the last APTIS machines were retired.

 

[some bloke]

I'm not clear how there's a real risk of conviction, especially if you publicise the case.

If you request CCTV from train company and/or airport, the company may find it harder to deny your account even if you don't/aren't allowed to publish it.

And you could ask the Railcard people what the situation was, and what information was sent to that company when.

The Court, if it got there*, would have no option but to convict, but they would probably give consideration to doing so with an absolute discharge, i.e. no punishment.

* The CPS may well stop it. And therein lies why I think the railway should lose this ability - it doesn't have that safeguard.

Faced with a ridiculous private prosecution, a defendant can ask the CPS to take over the case with a view to abandoning it. The company might be wise to give up when the CPS first contacts them, rather than risk more humiliation.

If the case went to court, the court can in theory at least throw it out for abuse of process.

If the court still convicts, in addition to ordering an absolute discharge the court can punish the company by making them pay their own costs.

If they didn't do that, perhaps you could ask the court to reconsider the sentence - much easier than appeal via the Crown Court.

https://www.gov.uk/appeal-magistrates-court-decision

Does the notification to staff and passengers mean already-installed railcards don't show, as in this case? I first read it as referring to a one-time failure to download the railcard (ie for initial installation into the app). If it's installed, why would it need to be downloaded? Maybe some staff weren't clear what was meant.

 

[DeverseSam]

When I eventually reached the front of the queue (at which point I was about to ask the staff member, who I shall call "X", "What's the point of having a fast service from London if I need to wait twenty minutes to exit the station?"),

That’s an attitude test fail even before the ticket check!

X knows they’re understaffed and it’s not within his power to change that

 

[AlterEgo]

That’s an attitude test fail even before the ticket check!

X knows they’re understaffed and it’s not within his power to change that

But the OP didn’t actually say that. And passengers shouldn’t need to satisfy an attitude test if they have paid their fare - and are then getting poor service .

 

[75A]

I'm not sure the OP was ever asked for their name and address though?

He didn't give them the opportunity did he? asked to go to see another person and he chose not to.

 

[All Line Rover]

If your ticket is illegible, yes, it's invalid. Season ticket holders who sometimes do experience that sort of issue need to exchange it before it becomes totally illegible.

Do you have a source for this? Are you saying that there is no difference between a ticket being partially illegible because it was printed incorrectly by a TVM (the rail industry's fault - something which has happened to me repeatedly with TOD-printed tickets) and a ticket being partially illegible through wear (arguably, the passenger's fault)?

He didn't give them the opportunity did he? asked to go to see another person and he chose not to.

Instead of grabbing my rucksack and trying to drag me down the escalator, X would have elicited a more favourable response if they had simply said "Wait, before you leave, I need to take your name and address". I was walking, not running, away and would have heard such a request.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you have a source for this? Are you saying that there is no difference between a ticket being partially illegible because it was printed incorrectly by a TVM (the rail industry's fault - something which has happened to me repeatedly with TOD-printed tickets) and a ticket being partially illegible through wear (arguably, the passenger's fault)?

What source would I need? If you can't see what the ticket is because the text on it is no longer legible, how on earth could it be valid? I could have picked it up off the floor.

You can exchange fading tickets at a booking office.

Instead of grabbing my rucksack and trying to drag me down the escalator, X would have elicited a more favourable response if they had simply said "Wait, before you leave, I need to take your name and address". I was walking, running, away and would have heard such a request.

You were asked to do something specific to resolve the situation. You didn't do it, you ran away. How could you possibly expect to be treated as genuine with that action?

If you were in a hurry, you could have gone over and politely asked the tourists if they'd mind you going in front.

The situation is almost identical to the recent Merseyrail one, apart from that the RPI didn't get the chance to write up an MG11 in your case. The passenger was asked to do something to regularise the situation, wilfully failed to do so, and was somehow surprised when they found themselves with the letter.

 

[All Line Rover]

An accusation of assault however is an occupational hazard in circumstances such as these, with the likelihood of supporting CCTV evidence in that location.

There is nothing inherent in the nature of a ticket inspector's role that should lead to such hazards. They are not police officers. If they could simply behave themselves and resist the urge to touch other passengers, they would save themselves a great deal of grief.

Fortunately for X I am not the sort of person to retaliate if somebody touches me, but others might respond in kind.

You were asked to do something specific to resolve the situation. You didn't do it, you ran away. How could you possibly expect to be treated as genuine with that action?

Because I had already shown the ticket and the open railcard app, perhaps? Not the usual course of action for a fare dodger?

A fare dodger might also have used one of the unmanned exits mentioned by some posters in this thread.

What source would I need? If you can't see what the ticket is because the text on it is no longer legible, how on earth could it be valid? I could have picked it up off the floor.

I'm asking what would happen if the ticket was illegible not because of wear but because of a fault with the thermal printing or paper.

The situation is almost identical to the recent Merseyrail one, apart from that the RPI didn't get the chance to write up an MG11 in your case. The passenger was asked to do something to regularise the situation, wilfully failed to do so, and was somehow surprised when they found themselves with the letter.

Link?

 

[some bloke]

Maybe this case would be of interest to a wider audience, especially if effectively pulling someone on the escalator seems reckless/potentially dangerous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because I had already shown the ticket and the open railcard app, perhaps? Not the usual course of action for a fare dodger?

You showed a non-functional Railcard app, not a valid Railcard. Not your fault, but it doesn't change the facts. You were then asked to do something to regularise the situation. You wilfully failed to do so. As a result, you were chased, though you got away with it on this occasion.

It seems fairly obvious that someone not wishing to pay to renew a Railcard might consider using their phone's settings to block the app's Internet access, which would look like the situation here?

If you'd simply gone over and spoken to the person you were asked to speak to, none of this would have happened. At absolute worst you'd have got a PF or an MG11 letter, which would have been rescinded when you later sent evidence of the Railcard once it was working again.

 

[All Line Rover]

You showed a non-functional Railcard app, not a valid Railcard. Not your fault, but it doesn't change the facts. You were then asked to do something to regularise the situation. You wilfully failed to do so. As a result, you were chased, though you got away with it on this occasion.

It seems fairly obvious that someone not wishing to pay to renew a Railcard might consider using their phone's settings to block the app's Internet access, which would look like the situation here?

How do I know what a "functional Railcard app" is supposed to look like? The app opened fine. At the top of the screen, it said - as it always does - "Your Railcards". Beneath that was a purple outline.

I've just tried opening the app again. After five seconds, the purple outline disappeared and was replaced with an orange outline which includes my details and an expiry date of 2024.

Maybe this is the way it is supposed to behave. I am hardly ever asked to show my railcard. I use the app - at most - once a month.

(I consider the above largely irrelevant, though. If the app had not opened at all, I would have been equally unprepared to wait. If the only course of action open to an authorised member of staff is to note down my details, providing that information is the only action I would be prepared to take.)

You were then asked to do something to regularise the situation. You wilfully failed to do so. As a result, you were chased

That's the usual response, is it?

 

[DeverseSam]

Next time anyone is in a long queue, open up railuk whicu usually has the answers like this thread which basicaly says avoid the staff there!

Break of journey at Stansted Airport

Hello all, I have a question regarding the break of journey at Stansted Airport[SSD] for super off peak ticket from London Liverpool Street[LST]-Cambridge[CBG] (GA only) ticket. The LST-CBG via GA ticket costs 11.50 for super off peak single and is definitely valid for changing trains at...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[All Line Rover]

Does the notification to staff and passengers mean already-installed railcards don't show, as in this case? I first read it as referring to a one-time failure to download the railcard (ie for initial installation into the app). If it's installed, why would it need to be downloaded? Maybe some staff weren't clear what was meant.

My railcard was already downloaded and installed. You are right in thinking that the internal memo is not comprehensive.

 

[gingerheid]

Yes I saw that on Sunday. However if you ignore that exit, and go to the very front of the train near the buffer stops, there is an alternative exit where there may not be any queue. This is not made clear to passengers, however. Also I think you can get out by a third exit up a ramp, going back on yourself, again there may not be a queue there.

They generally have people blocking, at least, the exit closest to the bay platforms and directing people to the massive queue.

 

[All Line Rover]

Perhaps throw that back at you then, what outcome would you like to see that can reasonably be achieved?

If you want the railway to fix its processes, we all know it won't.

I want that. If an app should carry almost as much weight/significance as physical ID such as a passport, it should be designed accordingly.

 

[Wolfie]

That’s an attitude test fail even before the ticket check!

X knows they’re understaffed and it’s not within his power to change that

It's about time that railway staff get off their bloody high horses with this "attitude test" crap. Who the hell do they think that they are to treat passengers like crap and expect said passengers to grovel to them? Get bloody over yourselves.

I will always be polite but if l get that rubbish my response will be to sue the TOC and get my MP involved every damned time. Perhaps if the Secretary of State and TOC Chief Executives get enough crap they will get off their fat asses and do their damned job - including training properly, and if necessary sacking, staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

(I consider the above largely irrelevant, though. If the app had not opened at all, I would have been equally unprepared to wait. If the only course of action open to an authorised member of staff is to note down my details, providing that information is the only action I would be prepared to take.)

If you go through life using an approach like that, you'll find yourself in conflict and being offered no discretion by people all over the show, I'm afraid.

To go back to my previous question, what realistic outcome do you want to achieve from this?

<you just did...>

I want that. If an app should carry almost as much weight/significance as physical ID such as a passport, it should be designed accordingly.

I completely agree with this, however it's an unrealistic outcome; your complaint won't achieve it. Assuming you aren't on a 26-30, I repeat my recommendation not to use digital Railcards - this is the only way to be sure of not encountering issues.

 

[duncanp]

It's about time that railway staff get off their bloody high horses with this "attitude test" crap. Who the hell do they think that they are to treat passengers like crap and expect said passengers to grovel to them? Get bloody over yourselves.

I will always be polite but if l get that rubbish my response will be to sue the TOC and get my MP involved every damned time. Perhaps if the Secretary of State and TOC Chief Executives get enough crap they will get off their fat asses and do their damned job - including training properly, and if necessary sacking, staff.

I agree.

It is their "...the passenger is always wrong..." or "...the passenger is guilty until proven innocent..." attitude that gets me.

To blame the passenger for not being able to show a valid railcard, when the reason that the passenger cannot show a valid railcard is the fact that the app is faulty (for which the rail industry is responsible), is nothing short of scandalous.

 

[Watershed]

Does the notification to staff and passengers mean already-installed railcards don't show, as in this case? I first read it as referring to a one-time failure to download the railcard (ie for initial installation into the app). If it's installed, why would it need to be downloaded? Maybe some staff weren't clear what was meant.

The issue is both that Railcard codes cannot be used to add newly purchased Railcards (or "duplicates"/new versions of existing Railcards), as well as that Railcards which have already added are appearing blank.

In either event, it looks like there's a validation check that's failing. The validation check is used for existing Railcards in order to allow you to change a Railcard onto a new device if you lose or damage your old one (from which it therefore cannot be removed).

 

[maniacmartin]

I haven't read the whole thread, but have a few things to say. Bear in mind that this is not legal advice:

- I'm pretty sure that RoRA only requires you to give your name and address if the railway employee has a reasonable suspicion that you avoided the fare. As the railcard app being down has been ongoing for some time and is well known, I don't think any suspicion of OP having not paid for the fare is reasonable.

- Pulling on someone on an escalator is a massive health and safety issue. What if OP had fallen down the escalator?

- The terms and conditions do indeed allow you to forget your railcard once per year (I think) and be able to resolve the issue by giving details. But OP did not forget their railcard, and they should be entitled to retain this "once forget" entitlement for a future journey, as I believe they are contractually entitled to. Indeed, they might have already used it up on a previous journey.

Awful customer service by Greater Anglia - I too have had to queue at Stansted for too long and had an argument with them about something different.

Finally, when app-based railcards first appeared, people like me warned against this sort of issue, but were told by others on the forum that we were luddites. However, the app has regular technical issues, so I'm afraid that I was right with my claim that I don't trust the rail industry to get it right.

Also, how is the railcard app supposed to connect to the internet in an underground station anyway? I can't imagine the phone signal will be great

 

[SteveM70]

I will always be polite but if l get that rubbish my response will be to sue the TOC and get my MP involved every damned time. Perhaps if the Secretary of State and TOC Chief Executives get enough crap they will get off their fat asses and do their damned job - including training properly, and if necessary sacking, staff.

Really? Good luck with that

 

[Sunil_P]

Some random thoughts, apologies if off-topic or if I'm spouting nonsense!

Out of the big four London Airports, Stansted is:

• The only one where Contactless bank cards can't be used on travel from stations anywhere within the TfL Contactless network
• Least frequent trains to central London
• Following on from that, they also take the longest time

 

[gingerheid]

Some random thoughts, apologies if off-topic or if I'm spouting nonsense!

Out of the big four London Airports, Stansted is:

• The only one where Contactless bank cards can't be used on travel from stations anywhere within the TfL Contactless network
• Least frequent trains to central London
• Following on from that, they also take the longest time

* I've not been at Heathrow lately, but from the others also the station witht the least well conceived barrier layout, the least sufficient staffing, and the staff who most clearly let everyone know they hate the world.

 

[sheff1]

X knows they’re understaffed and it’s not within his power to change that

At other stations, staff frequently open the barriers and wave people through if a crowd is building up. I have always assumed there was a safety aspect to this. Don't see why someone on a manual line could not similarly wave people through.

 

[Adam Williams]

Secondly, there's the issue with the Railcard app. This has been a known problem for days, and yet there still isn't a nationwide retail brief to tell staff to accept people who show a broken Railcard app. Again, this demonstrates the attitude problem in the industry. In the first place, how can a crucial piece of IT be allowed to fail that badly? And more importantly, how can you then try to blame or penalise the customer for it? I'd say it's unbelievable, but sadly the industry is just about a law unto itself. No other company would get away with it.

Agree with all of this.

I appreciate some people have included screenshots that indicate that some TOCs have issued local guidance which is good to see, but there should have been a publicised staff brief immediately - as soon as this was a recognised problem - and it should've also been sent to retailers to allow them to give their customers a heads-up. Staff should've been given screenshots of the failure state, if possible, and discretion should've been shown at the first sign of any sort of app issue.

This whole situation is a shambles, and the ridiculous thing is that I can also think of at least 3 other, completely unrelated engineering screw-ups that have happened under RDG's watch in the last fortnight excluding this railcards mess. One of which was caused by the one person who apparently is tasked with the job (that any other, actual tech company would've automated and put monitoring in place for) forgetting to renew the SSL certificate for api.nationalrail.co.uk on time (!)

I tell my software engineering friends who don't work in rail that you legitimately couldn't make this stuff up. I'm not gonna pretend that the IT infrastructure in the world of education or finance was perfect, but it wasn't this bad, and when it did break, customers weren't threatened with prosecution or treated like fare evaders.

 

[rs101]

I haven't read the whole thread, but have a few things to say. Bear in mind that this is not legal advice:

- I'm pretty sure that RoRA only requires you to give your name and address if the railway employee has a reasonable suspicion that you avoided the fare. As the railcard app being down has been ongoing for some time and is well known, I don't think any suspicion of OP having not paid for the fare is reasonable.

- Pulling on someone on an escalator is a massive health and safety issue. What if OP had fallen down the escalator?

- The terms and conditions do indeed allow you to forget your railcard once per year (I think) and be able to resolve the issue by giving details. But OP did not forget their railcard, and they should be entitled to retain this "once forget" entitlement for a future journey, as I believe they are contractually entitled to. Indeed, they might have already used it up on a previous journey.

Awful customer service by Greater Anglia - I too have had to queue at Stansted for too long and had an argument with them about something different.

Finally, when app-based railcards first appeared, people like me warned against this sort of issue, but were told by others on the forum that we were luddites. However, the app has regular technical issues, so I'm afraid that I was right with my claim that I don't trust the rail industry to get it right.

Also, how is the railcard app supposed to connect to the internet in an underground station anyway? I can't imagine the phone signal will be great

The app appears to cache the Railcard - just tried opening mine with both WiFi and data disabled. Opened without any issue.

However I had problems renewing it today - had to try twice and currently have a pending additional payment showing as I got a blank screen after my first attempt to purchase.
The only warning of any problems is on the support page, which isn't good enough. A major problem like this should be mentioned on the homepage.