Stations managed by an "odd" TOC

[plugwash]

Does anyone know if Chester was part of the original "wales and west" franchise, and if not who ran it prior to the restructure that gave us "wales and borders"?

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Selby and Brough on the same line are also served more frequently by Northern.

Avanti operating the ticketing facilities at Manchester Piccadilly is another oddity with nearby Network Rail stations at Leeds and Liverpool both being Northern operated


TFW provide all services to the referenced stations, with Northern only operating Express (with the exception of the parliamentary Ellesmere Port line)

Not true. Some Northern Chester - Leeds services also stop at Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn East, with some being express and some stoppers.

 

[43096]

Yes, but as noted in post #1 that is completely intentional, at privatisation it was decided XC would not be a station facility owner.

That made sense for the original XC incarnation, but less so since the Central Trains carve-up gave XC former Regional Railways routes.

 

[Ayrshire Roy]

Same for Stranraer

And Stenas ships don't even call there anymore either.

 

[Djgr]

Chester is strange because there is so much history and tales of it being so anti-Welsh.

(Unlike, say, Berwick-on-Tweed which celebrates its dual identity)

Again famously Chester FCs ground straddles the England/Wales border and Cheshire/North Wales Police take it in turns to police.

This all became very difficult during COVID, with different restrictions from the different countries.

 

[Parallel]

Chester gets at least 6 TfW services an hour (1tph to Holyhead; 1tph to Crewe; 1tph to Birmingham/Cardiff; 1tph to Llandudno, 1tph to Liverpool and 1tph to Manchester via Warrington) and TfW operate all directions out of Chester with the exception of towards Bache, and the Mid-Cheshire line (and they use(d) the latter for diversions).

Northern offer 2 trains per hour over two routes.

Avanti offer at least 1 train an hour although generally longer trains, they operate over three routes to/from the station.

Merseyrail offer 4 trains an hour, but only on one route.

I really don’t find it that strange that TfW manage Chester station. They operate the largest volume of services, with the largest variety of routes, and I’d imagine, provide the most capacity too.

 

[BeijingDave]

Chester gets at least 6 TfW services an hour (1tph to Holyhead; 1tph to Crewe; 1tph to Birmingham/Cardiff; 1tph to Llandudno, 1tph to Liverpool and 1tph to Manchester via Warrington) and TfW operate all directions out of Chester with the exception of towards Bache, and the Mid-Cheshire line (and they use(d) the latter for diversions).

Northern offer 2 trains per hour over two routes.

Avanti offer at least 1 train an hour although generally longer trains, they operate over three routes to/from the station.

Merseyrail offer 4 trains an hour, but only on one route.

I really don’t find it that strange that TfW manage Chester station. They operate the largest volume of services, with the largest variety of routes, and I’d imagine, provide the most capacity too.

It's not strange operationally/logistically.

It just seems strange to a Cestrian* that the station should be so Welsh. And probably to an outsider too. And for that reason, it fits the thread title: 'odd'

*I am half Cestrian.

 

[plugwash]

It is a bit weird that a chunk of rail services in England is essentially run by the welsh government, but presumablly the operational reality was to either do that, or to not devolve rail services in wales at all. Wales's rail network is split into at least three sections, which trains can only travel between by passing through England.

 

[swt_passenger]

That made sense for the original XC incarnation, but less so since the Central Trains carve-up gave XC former Regional Railways routes.

I thought that would come up, it usually does each time this discussion has arisen. It would still be a very small number of stations in comparison to the number of other stations on the former Central routes that do see other TOC services. The number of station staff and maintenance staff wouldn’t be a significant number.

 

[Parallel]

It's not strange operationally/logistically.

It just seems strange to a Cestrian* that the station should be so Welsh. And probably to an outsider too. And for that reason, it fits the thread title: 'odd'

*I am half Cestrian.

I guess it’s down to personal opinion, but I don’t find Chester, Shrewsbury or Hereford stations to be particularly Welsh, no more than the likes of other stations the ‘Borders’ part of Wales & Borders traditionally served such as Gloucester and Wellington. The only difference in my opinion is there is more TfW branding - This is from someone who lived in Wales!

 

[KevinTurvey]

Can anyone remind me didnt Cheater become a First Northwestern station and Shrewsbury a Central Trains one in the 1990s?

 

[generalnerd]

It is a bit weird that a chunk of rail services in England is essentially run by the welsh government, but presumablly the operational reality was to either do that, or to not devolve rail services in wales at all. Wales's rail network is split into at least three sections, which trains can only travel between by passing through England.

What they should do is have the ‘English’ sections not use the TfW branding as heavily and just have station be red and white branded (white with red strip) like I’ve seen and have little to not mention of transport for wales. It wouldn’t improve much, but I think it would look cleaner.

Personally I think GBR should step in to operate these ‘stranglers’ which have no sensible operator (even if the operator running them has not yet had its contract expire) which will ensure that stations are not being miss managed. It is fun to see weird station managements and signs though.

Back on topic, the merseytravel (ex city line) managed stations, though not too strange, are still really odd and do confuse me a little bit as the service is not operated by merseyrail.

 

[Lloyds siding]

Back on topic, the merseytravel (ex city line) managed stations, though not too strange, are still really odd and do confuse me a little bit as the service is not operated by merseyrail.

Merseytravel is not Merseyrail.

Chester being an admin centre for Cheshire and surrounds, extending into North Wales, is not unusual. There really isn't a very large population centre in North Wales, so to get a large enough administration area it is often incorporated with a nearby English region. Examples include the old Merseyside and North Wales Electricty Board (Manweb), even today Merseyside provides major hospital facilities for North Wales (and also the Isle of Man)

 

[Djgr]

Merseytravel is not Merseyrail.

Chester being an admin centre for Cheshire and surrounds, extending into North Wales, is not unusual. There really isn't a very large population centre in North Wales, so to get a large enough administration area it is often incorporated with a nearby English region. Examples include the old Merseyside and North Wales Electricty Board (Manweb), even today Merseyside provides major hospital facilities for North Wales (and also the Isle of Man)

And the CH postcode crosses the England/Wales boundary. Delivery vans and even postboxes as far away as Birkenhead (CH41) can be bilingual.

 

[generalnerd]

Merseytravel is not Merseyrail.

I am aware that they are not the same, but the signs being almost identical has always been funny to me. I wasn’t mentioning that merseytravel covers wales (although the opposite was ironically mentioned in my post) but that I found it funny that the merseytravel logo was seen at stations not operated by the concession. Also, I believe the signs did say merseyrail until recently

 

[Rescars]

And Stenas ships don't even call there anymore either.

Perhaps Stena would like to restore trains to Cairnryan!

 

[BeijingDave]

I guess it’s down to personal opinion, but I don’t find Chester, Shrewsbury or Hereford stations to be particularly Welsh, no more than the likes of other stations the ‘Borders’ part of Wales & Borders traditionally served such as Gloucester and Wellington. The only difference in my opinion is there is more TfW branding - This is from someone who lived in Wales!

I just think it fits the 'odd' requirement of the title, that I go to a railway station in a historically defiantly English city and buy tickets from a window staffed by people with Trafnidiaeth Cymru printed on their name badges, and am handed a receipt for a journey wholly within England with that printed on the top. I then see a train arriving with 'Caer' on its screen.

It's not offensive to me, by the way, I love Wales.

 

[WAB]

Avanti operating the ticketing facilities at Manchester Piccadilly is another oddity with nearby Network Rail stations at Leeds and Liverpool both being Northern operated

I think the Chester/TfW/previous incarnations thing might be a BR relic - the Area Manager et al covering North Wales used to be based at Chester station - there were once fairly extensive BR admin offices in the station buildings, not sure if there's anything there now?

I don’t think there’s much there now as far I know - just a traincrew training school.

 

[Western Gaffer]

What they should do is have the ‘English’ sections not use the TfW branding as heavily and just have station be red and white branded (white with red strip) like I’ve seen and have little to not mention of transport for wales. It wouldn’t improve much, but I think it would look cleaner.

Personally I think GBR should step in to operate these ‘stranglers’...

With a golden brown colour scheme?

 

[stadler]

Hastings and St Leonards Warrior Square are both managed by Southeastern despite the fact that Southern run double the amount of trains. I would think that these two stations would fit in much better being managed by Southern instead. Not only do Southern run far more services but they also manage every other station on the coastway and marshlink routes.

 

[duffield]

Hastings and St Leonards Warrior Square are both managed by Southeastern despite the fact that Southern run double the amount of trains. I would think that these two stations would fit in much better being managed by Southern instead. Not only do Southern run far more services but they also manage every other station on the coastway and marshlink routes.

Or maybe it won't matter if GBR results in merging Southern and Southeastern into a new "Network South-East" region?

 

[plugwash]

Hastings and St Leonards Warrior Square are both managed by Southeastern despite the fact that Southern run double the amount of trains. I would think that these two stations would fit in much better being managed by Southern instead. Not only do Southern run far more services but they also manage every other station on the coastway and marshlink routes.

While southern run more services, Southeastern provide the main service from those stations to London (2 TPH via a relatively direct route, vs 1TPH via a rather indirect route.

 

[styles]

Chester? I think you mean Caer

 

[BeijingDave]

Chester? I think you mean Caer

As someone of Roman lineage, I object. It's Deva.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Worcester Shrub Hill is managed by WMT but at most times of the day there are more GWR services (1tph to/from Bristol and 1tph to/from Paddington) than WMR services (1tph to/from Stratford upon Avon). I suppose WMR do have a depot and train crew based there though

Likewise, Birmingham Moor Street being Chiltern Managed when there are a lot more WMT trains stopping there.

 

[josh-j]

Yes, considering the amount of Northern coverage I'm surprised that only TPE cover Stalybridge > Huddersfield. Means their "inter-city" trains have to stop at those smaller stations!

When Great British Rail finally take over, will that include all (or most) of the stations under one banner?

I can't remember the exact reason these stations' services were switched over to TPE but the plan is for them to go back to Northern later on in the Transpennine Route Upgrade process so it is technically only temporary even though it has been like it is for several years already.

Stopping services between Huddersfield and Leeds moved to TPE as well around the same time (I think), but have now partially moved back to Northern.

 

[Horizon22]

Down in the London & SE, Higham has struck me as a weird one. Since Thameslink/GTR took over Rainham stoppers via the North Kent line in the 2018-2019 this is the vast majority of trains whilst Southeastern manage the station. It's also a weird station anyway, surrounded by steep sides.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't find Chester that strange, as TfW provide the largest variety of services from the station. If it didn't sit with TfW, the only other operator it would make sense to sit with would probably be Avanti.

Well I think you could make an argument for Merseyrail in terms of passenger numbers

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I think you could make an argument for Merseyrail in terms of passenger numbers

As I mentioned they don't really have the competency of managing large multi-TOC stations. Southport is as close as they get, and I think I'd struggle to say that's well managed. With TfW being the main "mainline" operator there I can see that they make most sense.

 

[ls2270]

Down in the London & SE, Higham has struck me as a weird one. Since Thameslink/GTR took over Rainham stoppers via the North Kent line in the 2018-2019 this is the vast majority of trains whilst Southeastern manage the station. It's also a weird station anyway, surrounded by steep sides.

A similar odd one is Bat and Ball. It’s managed by Southeastern but I believe all its services are Thameslink operated.