Storm Doris Thursday 23rd - Major disruption on some routes

[wls1]

The little old LTS has suffered this week, 2nd day in a row that Fenchurch Street was evacuated because of no trains and overcrowding. For around 30 mins, there were now ways of getting passed Benfleet, Tree at West Horndon, Plastic bag at Pitsea and a broken down train at Ockendon. Trains were around 90 mins late.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L30061/2017/02/23/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L30127/2017/02/23/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L30115/2017/02/23/advanced

 

[Skimble19]

When I was at Kings Cross early this evening I saw nobody getting angry with the staff. Just people incredulous at the lack of organisation.

By "the staff" I am including the managers who were stood on 9/10/11.

The staff had control over delivering a coherent message to customers. They failed.

They did not use the station PA.

They did not use the departure board screens effectively.

They didn't even have a working loud hailer.

There were a lot of things within the control of the 'staff' to make things better that quite simply were not done.

On the other hand, having walked through St Pancras to get to Kings Cross they seemed to be marvelously organised, barriers information, etc.

There's very good reasons why those aren't GTRs fault for pretty much all of your points.. For instance, GN station staff at KGX have no access to the station PA - Network Rail control it, same with the boards - GN Control can get trains posted on there but Network Rail are in charge of the messages etc. on there.

The loudhailer issue is odd but not massively surprising. The rest of your points are essentially down to Network Rail, not GTR.

 

[daikilo]

While there has clearly been a lot of disruption today I have little sympathy with people's complaints. The trouble with this country is our national trait of "Stiff Upper Lip" or "Keep Calm And Carry On". This prevents most of us from accepting that sometimes the weather is severe enough to make normal life near impossible at least for a while. Comparisons with mainland European countries are pointless as geography prevents them from getting the full effect of Atlantic storms.

We need to be more like residents of the New England states in the US; when severe weather is clearly forecast, which in their case means snow whose depth can be measured in feet, people calmly ensure their food stocks will last the three days that it might take to clear the roads and simply stay at home when the weather hits. Everyone knows the score and accepts it. For some reason we think that bad weather disruption will never apply to us and then become indignant when it does.

It's high time it became acceptable in this country for clear forecasts of severe weather to come attached with a message of "don't travel at all". Sheer madness for railway people to be dealing with countless incidents of lines having to be cleared of debris while still trying to transport the usual hordes. People have criticised the likes of South Eastern for cancelling almost their whole service when severe weather is expected but that at least keeps people from becoming stranded and allows for a coherent resumption of services afterwards.

Back when I was a lad, we had similar winds, feet of snow and other disruptive things and we just got on with it and passengers tended to understand. If we don't want trees to fall on lines they need to be cut down, if we want catenary to stay in place we need to spend to ensure it will, if we don't accept a couple of inches of snow as being a reason to stop service we need to find a solution, etc. We have a choice, but it does not come for free..

 

[Chris M]

If the staff in the station are getting the same information that shows on the screens what the hell are they meant to tell people is happening.

I encountered this exact problem at Guildford, where two staff sat an "Information" booth on the platform actually had no more information than was on the screens and station PA. This was in 1999. If things haven't improved in 18 years, when the opportunities for getting more information to staff have only increased, then something has gone very wrong somewhere.

 

[Antman]

Sorry, but the fault still falls to GTR, unless of course you are suggesting that when GTR went to Network Rail and asked them to put some sensible announcements on the PA and information on the departure boards that Network Rail told them to 'go away'.

In which case I will accept that it was Network Rail who had the useless staff.

 

[PHILIPE]

I encountered this exact problem at Guildford, where two staff sat an "Information" booth on the platform actually had no more information than was on the screens and station PA. This was in 1999. If things haven't improved in 18 years, when the opportunities for getting more information to staff have only increased, then something has gone very wrong somewhere.

The fragmented railway system when the right hand doesn't or even made aware what the other hand(s) is doing. :cry::cry:

 

[rg177]

Well I'm now at home after my "adventure" ending up being delayed for hours on all manner of services.

Had I not booked a hotel last month I'd not have even bothered today but I pretty much got what I paid for [emoji14] Staff on 1H18 were absolutely fantastic, and I do believe the award for delay minutes may go to 1H15 (0940 off Euston) which arrived into Manchester just before us.

 

[EM2]

I encountered this exact problem at Guildford, where two staff sat an "Information" booth on the platform actually had no more information than was on the screens and station PA.

Why would you expect them to have any more information? If it's on the screens and the PA then they've told you what they know. What advantage would there be for them to withhold information?

 

[Chris M]

There's very good reasons why those aren't GTRs fault for pretty much all of your points.. For instance, GN station staff at KGX have no access to the station PA - Network Rail control it, same with the boards - GN Control can get trains posted on there but Network Rail are in charge of the messages etc. on there.

The loudhailer issue is odd but not massively surprising. The rest of your points are essentially entirely Network Rails fault, not GTR.

Network Rail manage Kings Cross station. GN Staff the gateline on 9-11 only, and provide dispatchers for their services, as well as somebody in the Information booth. Virgin staff the rest of the gatelines, and have dispatchers for their services. The main control functions are almost entirely done by Network Rail, so for once can we save the "GTR bashing"...

I didn't read any "GTR bashing" in that message at all. As a passenger I don't care who operates the PA at the station, I just want somebody (anybody) to actually broadcast useful information on it. If GN can't do that themselves, then they need to get Network Rail to do it for them. It's hardly rocket science.

 

[iainbhx]

I think he meant poor as in having a tough day at work - i.e sympathetic with them

I was indeed. They were having a rough time, not their fault.

 

[Elecman]

I was on the 09.15 New Street to Preston service, held steady Crewe till 12.15 then told to take the replacement bus service to Preston ( even though they knew the M6 was shut at Zthelwall Viaduct, bus took 6 and 1/2 hours to get from Crewe to Preston. In the meantime the train they turfed everyone off went forward in service from Crewe just 30 minutes later!!

 

[EM2]

I didn't read any "GTR bashing" in that message at all. As a passenger I don't care who operates the PA at the station, I just want somebody (anybody) to actually broadcast useful information on it.

I didn't travel today, but as I understand it, the offered advice was 'don't travel'. During the day, it was obvious that there was serious disruption almost everywhere.
So, with that in mind, what information do you want on the PA?
'Everything's buggered, ladies and gents. We suggest you go and book a hotel'?

 

[Antman]

As a passenger I don't care who operates the PA at the station, I just want somebody (anybody) to actually broadcast useful information on it. If GN can't do that themselves, then they need to get Network Rail to do it for them. It's hardly rocket science.

Exactly, it isn't rocket science, but it was clearly beyond the ability of GTR / Network Rail at Kings Cross this evening.

What seems incredible is it would seem obvious that when the weather forecasts were seen last night, that GTR / Network Rail would have discussed what they were going to do when the inevitable happened, rather than delivered a 'not my job mate' response.

 

[40129]

While there has clearly been a lot of disruption today I have little sympathy with people's complaints. The trouble with this country is our national trait of "Stiff Upper Lip" or "Keep Calm And Carry On". This prevents most of us from accepting that sometimes the weather is severe enough to make normal life near impossible at least for a while. Comparisons with mainland European countries are pointless as geography prevents them from getting the full effect of Atlantic storms.

We need to be more like residents of the New England states in the US; when severe weather is clearly forecast, which in their case means snow whose depth can be measured in feet, people calmly ensure their food stocks will last the three days that it might take to clear the roads and simply stay at home when the weather hits. Everyone knows the score and accepts it. For some reason we think that bad weather disruption will never apply to us and then become indignant when it does.

It's high time it became acceptable in this country for clear forecasts of severe weather to come attached with a message of "don't travel at all". Sheer madness for railway people to be dealing with countless incidents of lines having to be cleared of debris while still trying to transport the usual hordes. People have criticised the likes of South Eastern for cancelling almost their whole service when severe weather is expected but that at least keeps people from becoming stranded and allows for a coherent resumption of services afterwards.

This.

And how many people in the US try to go about their normal business when a hurricane is forecast? Very few. They either evacuate or batten down the hatches and stay put until the storm has passed.

Just heard Tom Bradby on News At Ten imply that because Dorris was forecast, the rail network should have been able to run trains as normal. And there was me thinking that the point of the forecast was to warn people that there would be disruption and prepare/act aappropriately

 

[Chris M]

Why would you expect them to have any more information? If it's on the screens and the PA then they've told you what they know. What advantage would there be for them to withhold information?

Given that the information on the screens were showing details of trains that were scheduled several hours previously, I would expect them to have details about the few trains that actually were running.

I don't remember what information the PA was giving exactly, but at most it was what was happening now and so was not useful for planning ahead or making decisions about alternative routes. I was trying to get to Bristol, my intended route was via Reading.
I would expect them to be able to tell me things like:
Whether there was an estimated time for resolution of the problem?
When would the next train to Reading be?
If unknown, is there another route I could take that was running?
If so, would my ticket be accepted on that route?

They could answer none of those questions.

 

[Failed Unit]

I didn't travel today, but as I understand it, the offered advice was 'don't travel'. During the day, it was obvious that there was serious disruption almost everywhere.
So, with that in mind, what information do you want on the PA?
'Everything's buggered, ladies and gents. We suggest you go and book a hotel'?

Sort of. Example at kings cross tonight they didn't actually announce that the line between Royston and Cambridge was closed. It was so why not say so? Some passengers when told by staff to come back after 1800 were happy to go eat.

 

[Antman]

I didn't travel today, but as I understand it, the offered advice was 'don't travel'.

That was not the GTR advice.

During the day, it was obvious that there was serious disruption almost everywhere.

Actually at 4pm GTR's app was showing the trains leaving at 5pm as all running on time. Now I know that is just because GTR's app and the data it uses is rubbish, but shouldn't GTR pull their finger out and fix it.

So, with that in mind, what information do you want on the PA?

How about a PA announcement saying "There are two trains leaving for Peterborough on 6 and 7", rather than having the guy with the broken loud hailer trying to tell people, so the people at the front of the crowd in front of 9/10/11 are now not trying to push their way through those behind who could not hear.

 

[Chris M]

I didn't travel today, but as I understand it, the offered advice was 'don't travel'. During the day, it was obvious that there was serious disruption almost everywhere.
So, with that in mind, what information do you want on the PA?
'Everything's buggered, ladies and gents. We suggest you go and book a hotel'?

The advice from some operators was "don't travel" but not everybody has that luxury.
Some trains were running, so I would expect the PA to broadcast information about those trains. Things like "The next train on platform 4 will depart in approximately 10 minutes. It will be calling at Peterbourgh and Grantham only.", "There are no trains to Cambridge expected for at least an hour." and "The train now standing on platform 0 is the 17:05 service to Potters Bar, calling at X, Y and Z. Passengers for R should board this train and change at S" (assuming those were correct statements).

 

[Llanigraham]

While there has clearly been a lot of disruption today I have little sympathy with people's complaints. The trouble with this country is our national trait of "Stiff Upper Lip" or "Keep Calm And Carry On". This prevents most of us from accepting that sometimes the weather is severe enough to make normal life near impossible at least for a while. Comparisons with mainland European countries are pointless as geography prevents them from getting the full effect of Atlantic storms.

We need to be more like residents of the New England states in the US; when severe weather is clearly forecast, which in their case means snow whose depth can be measured in feet, people calmly ensure their food stocks will last the three days that it might take to clear the roads and simply stay at home when the weather hits. Everyone knows the score and accepts it. For some reason we think that bad weather disruption will never apply to us and then become indignant when it does.

It's high time it became acceptable in this country for clear forecasts of severe weather to come attached with a message of "don't travel at all". Sheer madness for railway people to be dealing with countless incidents of lines having to be cleared of debris while still trying to transport the usual hordes. People have criticised the likes of South Eastern for cancelling almost their whole service when severe weather is expected but that at least keeps people from becoming stranded and allows for a coherent resumption of services afterwards.

Well said!!
Funny how it is the usual names complaining the loudest on here.

 

[mildertduck]

When I was at KGX earlier there was no issue with the announcements.

They announced when the next train was departing, and where it was going to. The minute a train was announced, a surge of people went towards it. The social media platforms were clearly telling people not to travel, as was the news. I'm not really sure what more could have been done, apart from perhaps leaving more trains to depart later, when the line speed was restored and running through the night.

 

[Antman]

Some trains were running, so I would expect the PA to broadcast information about those trains.

Having seen the weather reports last night, I would have expected GTR to have met with Network Rail first thing this morning to discuss how they would work together to deliver what information was available in a clear and coherent way to their customers this evening.

From the evidence this evening, that didn't happen.

 

[Antman]

The social media platforms were clearly telling people not to travel, as was the news. I'm not really sure what more could have been done

But GTR was telling people to travel.

Their app and website was telling people that trains departing on 60 minutes time were 'on time' and were not showing any delay or disruption.

Perhaps GTR ought to have been reading the social media websites and using the information to update their app and website.

 

[dk1]

Well what a day driving around our glorious railway network, all 16hr37m of it. Who cares about Hidden?? All in a days work

 

[JonathanP]

I tried to make a journey from Euston to the West Mids today, beginning at 13:30, when not much was leaving Euston. It didn't go well.
It was announced that a 10 coach Voyager would be departing for Stafford, so everyone that wanted to go North got on it, leaving it full and standing. Then.. nothing happened.
For the next 40 minutes until the actual departure numerous VTWC staff ran up and down the platform shouting into their radios, but not a single syllable came out of the PA system.

After our 50mph journey up the WCML we then arrived at Milton Keynes at aroun 1600, and there was an announcement that the train would definitely not be going anywhere further until 1700. We were also encouraged to get off and make use of the toilets on the station, since most of the train ones were out of order.

Then, at 1640 without any warning whatsoever, the doors were closed and the train departed. hock: Numerous people were left behind on the station, with their belongings on the train. Husbands were on the train whilst their wives were on the platform. Absolutely unbelievable.

I then futilely attempted to catch an onward train from Birmingham Snow Hill, where a very limited emergency timetable was in operation, despite a misleading poster saying "No trains". The automated PA was busy announcing the cancellation of every train, and information provision was pretty poor. To be fair, when there was a train ready to leave, an announcement was made about it, but to get any information about the general picture of what lines were open you had to track down a member of staff and badger them for info. Being an enthusiast, I could see on the live signalling maps that "WALL" had been interposed on the track circuit berths between Cradley Heath and Lye so nothing was going to get past that, but there was no information at the station about this.

I understand that often the staff often don't have any information to provide, but it always better to say so clearly, and give out whatever general information is available, than to maintain "radio silence" when nothing is moving, or subject everyone to endless meaningless automated announcements.

I have seen disruption handled well in the past, but today didn't seem to be one of those days, perhaps just because the problems were so widespread.

 

[Mag_seven]

On the plus side it looks as if the Caledonian Sleepers are operating this evening!

 

[miami]

What's the winner on delay minutes? This Euston to Manchester service managed to reach 377 minutes (six hours seventeen minutes) including three hours spent between Colwich and Stone.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P45285/2017/02/23/advanced

6h7 late, but I saw it depart stone a mere 34 minutes late. It took over 5 hours to travel the last few yards, at least it appears to have done - I assume the reality was different.

 

[cuccir]

A few thoughts.

First, it's worth noting how many trains did work. I commuted on the ECML today in Northern England at 07:18 and 16:41 on trains which ran on time, at their usual time.

Second, comparisons to other countries can only be loose at best. We have a uniquely weird housing market, particularly in the south-east. In most other countries people simply don't commute the distances we do - Paris is probably the only city comparable to London on that front.

Third, the idea that other countries don't have problems is flawed. There were many cancellations today in the Netherlands, for example.

Fourth: the thing that surprised me today was that rail companies attempted to run long distance services from northern Scotland to southern England, or indeed from northern England to southern England. I think we'd get much more reliability out of more readily breaking up services into regional shuttles on days like this - it would help contain problems and reduce overall travel demand.

 

[fowler9]

As far as I am aware a lot of transport companies asked people not to travel before today even kicked off, at the very least they asked them to wait for announcements. Unless I am massively wrong VTWC and BA were amongst them. Alright other countries get worse weather but no one in the UK was actually evacuated like happens in severe Hurricanes in the Caribbean for example. Why does everyone in the UK expect to be able to carry on as normal during severe weather events like today? How many people actually made contingency arrangements to get to work in the event of a mess happening. Naff all I'd say.

 

[miami]

While the WCML had ground to a halt for 6 hours, it was a bit sluggish on the motorway - average speed about 60mph from J16 on the M6 down to the toll. Speed limit of 60 for a few miles near the NEC, but on the whole business as usual.

It's a shame how bad the railway is hot when the motorway network holds up so well.

 

[47802]

While there has clearly been a lot of disruption today I have little sympathy with people's complaints. The trouble with this country is our national trait of "Stiff Upper Lip" or "Keep Calm And Carry On". This prevents most of us from accepting that sometimes the weather is severe enough to make normal life near impossible at least for a while. Comparisons with mainland European countries are pointless as geography prevents them from getting the full effect of Atlantic storms.

We need to be more like residents of the New England states in the US; when severe weather is clearly forecast, which in their case means snow whose depth can be measured in feet, people calmly ensure their food stocks will last the three days that it might take to clear the roads and simply stay at home when the weather hits. Everyone knows the score and accepts it. For some reason we think that bad weather disruption will never apply to us and then become indignant when it does.

It's high time it became acceptable in this country for clear forecasts of severe weather to come attached with a message of "don't travel at all". Sheer madness for railway people to be dealing with countless incidents of lines having to be cleared of debris while still trying to transport the usual hordes. People have criticised the likes of South Eastern for cancelling almost their whole service when severe weather is expected but that at least keeps people from becoming stranded and allows for a coherent resumption of services afterwards.

Utter Rubbish

So today travelled Bradford to Stockport and return, journey time same as yesterday. Reason travelled by Car, which I suspect with some localised exceptions was the same for most people travelling by car. Would I have stayed at home good grief no its the North of England IT GETS WINDY.

Meanwhile a lot of the UK rail Service was a complete shambles and frankly if the performance of Rail cannot be improved in this sort of Weather then maybe some of the investment should be taken away and moved to roads instead.