Storm Doris Thursday 23rd - Major disruption on some routes

[Antman]

Why does everyone in the UK expect to be able to carry on as normal during severe weather events like today?

Perhaps because the train companies fail to communicate with their customers.

This morning there were no messages on my train or station saying "don't travel". This evening the train company app was saying "problems earlier, everything fine by the time you get here".

So where does the blame sit.

 

[fowler9]

While the WCML had ground to a halt for 6 hours, it was a bit sluggish on the motorway - average speed about 60mph from J16 on the M6 down to the toll. Speed limit of 60 for a few miles near the NEC, but on the whole business as usual.

It's a shame how bad the railway is hot when the motorway network holds up so well.

The M6 and any motorway can get totally messed up by one idiot driving irresponsibly many times a year. How many times this year do you reckon the railways will get totally messed up by a storm? (Southern doesn't count, ha ha).

 

[sheff1]

Yeah fair enough mate. I just think that sometimes people expect information when there simply is none.

I was at Doncaster this afternoon. The announcements simply repeated that there were delays on all lines.

The Sheffield train was shown on the screens as "on time" from platform 8, but there was a Grand Central Train in 8. I therefore positioned myself on platform 4 so that I could see the line to the north. Sure enough, as I expected, the Sheffield bound train appeared heading into Platform 3. I went under the subway and reached the platform just as the train doors were released.

After I had sat down there was finally an announcement that the Sheffield train was replatformed - soon there was a stream of passengers rushing up the stairs, many struggling with luggage (passengers from London to Sheffield had been sent via Doncaster due to the MML blockage). Naturally, this resulted in a delayed departure.

Clearly the train (i) could not go into platform 8 & (ii) had been signalled into platform 3 well before I saw it approach. Why was the platform change not announced as soon as the route was signalled ? If, for some reason, that was not possible why did none of the staff present have the wit to do what I did and look to see if it was coming into 3 and at least give people another couple of minutes warning of the change ?

 

[Antman]

Why was the platform change not announced as soon as the route was signalled ? If, for some reason, that was not possible why did none of the staff present have the wit to do what I did and look to see if it was coming into 3 and at least give people another couple of minutes warning of the change ?

I think you will find the reason is it was someone else's job to do that.

 

[fowler9]

Perhaps because the train companies fail to communicate with their customers.

This morning there were no messages on my train or station saying "don't travel". This evening the train company app was saying "problems earlier, everything fine by the time you get here".

So where does the blame sit.

Which company was it? I would take it up with them. There have been severe weather warnings sent out all over the place for a few days now. I work in housing and I certainly wasn't surprised at what happened today. We didn't get special insider knowledge. Plenty of sources said not to travel. If your local TOC said not to worry have a word.

 

[Antman]

Which company was it? I would take it up with them.

GTR, and I have done and with their predecessors (same people, different uniform). Nobody is interested as it is a commuter line with a captive customer base.

 

[sheff1]

Plenty of sources said not to travel. If your local TOC said not to worry have a word.

There was no reason to worry. The train from Sheffield to Doncaster was on time this morning and the return would have been as well if it wasn't for the poor information I described in post 392#

 

[fowler9]

GTR, and I have done and with their predecessors (same people, different uniform). Nobody is interested as it is a commuter line with a captive customer base.

Ah, ha ha. Fair enough. At the same time mate I have known for a few days that today was not going to be pretty. Knowing GTR as you must do did you honestly ignore all the other advice and think GTR were probably right?

 

[bb21]

I think you will find the reason is it was someone else's job to do that.

Give it a rest for heaven's sake. You weren't even there.

 

[AnkleBoots]

At Kings Cross this evening there was a very mumbled recorded message inviting East Coast passengers to take the next available train regardless of ticket conditions.

It also politely invited West Coast passengers to return to Euston (despite there being trains on the platforms showing as going to Edinburgh).

 

[Antman]

Ah, ha ha. Fair enough. At the same time mate I have known for a few days that today was not going to be pretty. Knowing GTR as you must do did you honestly ignore all the other advice and think GTR were probably right?

No I knew it would be terrible, and would be made worse by the lack of information and the 'not my job mate' attitude.

But if you have to be somewhere, what else can you do.

 

[Llanigraham]

While the WCML had ground to a halt for 6 hours, it was a bit sluggish on the motorway - average speed about 60mph from J16 on the M6 down to the toll. Speed limit of 60 for a few miles near the NEC, but on the whole business as usual.

It's a shame how bad the railway is hot when the motorway network holds up so well.

What an absolutely pointless comparison!!
But follows a pattern of ignoring what really did happen, from flooding closing lanes on some motorways, to bridge closures and severe speed restrictions elsewhere.

 

[fowler9]

There was no reason to worry. The train from Sheffield to Doncaster was on time this morning and the return would have been as well if it wasn't for the poor information I described in post 392#

Do you think that the staff were being deliberately awkward to make a nightmare of a day worse for themselves or that they just hadn't been told what was happening? Working in a customer service role I have had the same thought several times today. "Do you honestly think I am trying to make my day harder????".

 

[LAX54]

While the WCML had ground to a halt for 6 hours, it was a bit sluggish on the motorway - average speed about 60mph from J16 on the M6 down to the toll. Speed limit of 60 for a few miles near the NEC, but on the whole business as usual.

It's a shame how bad the railway is hot when the moto
rway network holds up so well.

Tell the Drivers on the M11 and M25 that, who were stuck for hours on end !

or the Drivers trying to get to Felixstowe on the A14....that was shut for some 4 or 5 hours due to the wind !

 

[jon0844]

What I don't understand is why the rail network has collapsed so badly despite the forewarning? I've been on trains in Sweden which ploughed through 3 feet of snow, trains in Norway which made light work of a sustained total blizzard and in Germany, despite ice, wind, snow etc causing line obstructions over winter there was nowhere near this level of disruption

I've been on delayed trains in Sweden, France, Denmark and Germany.

The snow in Sweden is usually nicer than here. It gets cold and stays cold, so snow doesn't melt and go ice. Rolling stock has dual redundancy (like the 700s now do and possibly others) so I am sure in time we can address some issues.

But in heavy wind, speed restrictions will affect such a busy network more than locations with a lot more recovery time, and less people to shift around.

The grass isn't always greener, especially if you look a bit closer at how things really are elsewhere.

 

[Starmill]

Those complaining of insufficient information given from London Kings Cross this evening, it does appear that things could have been much worse. The final departures of the night from Kings Cross appear to be all running so it's unlikely anybody will be stranded as has been the case in the past. 1900 to Edinburgh, 2200 to Newcastle, 2257 to York and 2330 to Leeds. The 2330 is even on time! :P The 1935 Edinburgh to London Kings Cross is underway and only half an hour late and the 2045 Leeds to London Kings Cross arrived on time. So in general people will mostly have made it - could be much worse.

As far as London Euston is concerned, despite there being no departures for Glasgow between 1000 (which made it to Glasgow Central at 2025, only 10 hours on the rails!) and 1730, the final train of the night the 1930 departed at 2010 and is somewhere near Penrith so it looks like it will be fine. The 2330 to Birmingham New Street is even on time (!). No sign of the 2300 to Manchester Piccadilly just yet though.

 

[infobleep]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but a Web Site, possible the Great Northern one or National Rail Enquiries, claimed replacement buses were running from Cambridge. However someone told me that no such buses were actually running and they ended up getting a lift back to Stevenage from their brother, getting home at 22.30. They were lucky their brother lived in Cambridge.

I can understand why it might not be possible to get hold of buses but they shouldn't claim something they can't deliver.

Still it's a Govia Thameslink Railway brand so perhaps it's part of the course.

I see a 18.55 and 20.55 did run. I don't know why they weren't on either of them as I don't know what time they left work. However trying to board what was a two hourly service on a week day from Cambridge might be difficult. Two hourly with no trains before the 18.55 since 12.55!

I understand why trains might not be able to run but at least be more honest about the replacement buses.

 

[jon0844]

But GTR was telling people to travel.

Their app and website was telling people that trains departing on 60 minutes time were 'on time' and were not showing any delay or disruption.

Perhaps GTR ought to have been reading the social media websites and using the information to update their app and website.

RTT was showing trains as running as normal on GN and some delays for Virgin trains.

I actually told someone it seemed King's Cross was normal, but it seems that this wasn't true.

Giving incorrect information is just as bad as no information. I feel bad for saying (at 5.15 or so) that it appeared all trains were on time. It was only later looking at another site, it seemed very little was moving and there were stops on some tracks in and out of KGX.

I did notice a few delayed trains on the boards at Hatfield (which FWIW had a good ten members of staff helping people coming on buses from SAC) that hadn't cleared. In times of disruption, they can clear all the boards - but there's still a problem with that not happening online so people at home, or at work, are going to head to a station totally unaware of the real situation.

That needs to be fixed. Some passengers may not have bothered to travel if they'd seen delays beforehand, stayed at work for a bit, or gone for a pint or three.

GTR did say about speed restrictions during the day, but that sounded precautionary and not a warning of actual problems. In fact, it may have made people feel even more satisfied that everything was great.

 

[infobleep]

Which company was it? I would take it up with them. There have been severe weather warnings sent out all over the place for a few days now. I work in housing and I certainly wasn't surprised at what happened today. We didn't get special insider knowledge. Plenty of sources said not to travel. If your local TOC said not to worry have a word.

South West Trains weren't reporting issues this morning, bar a track defect at Raynes Park. During the morning National Rail Enquiries reported speed restrictions. This would have come from South West Trains and no doubt mentioned on their Twitter.

However it didn't reach South West Trains's journey check site. Not until after the speed restrictions had been lifted at 15.00, did it get a mention and it was called a former speed restriction. They merged all the reasons for delays into one update. So whilst the wind related speed restriction was lifted, it still existed at Raynes Park for the track defect and that was still causing delays to fast line trains. They were referring to Hampton Court services being cancelled even as they started running again.

It seems as if they were struggling to keep up with the changing picture today.

 

[45107]

What I don't understand is why the rail network has collapsed so badly despite the forewarning? I've been on trains in Sweden which ploughed through 3 feet of snow, trains in Norway which made light work of a sustained total blizzard and in Germany, despite ice, wind, snow etc causing line obstructions over winter there was nowhere near this level of disruption

So how do Network Rail plan ahead to remove fallen trees from the line ?
Can you tell them where the next one will fall so they get staff in place to remove it before a train hits it ?
the 50mph restrictions were imposed to minimise this risk.
The weather was bad enough that trees were falling in areas that were not expected to !

Railway at fault for not predicting tree fall ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ?

 

[fowler9]

South West Trains weren't reporting issues this morning, bar a track defect at Raynes Park. During the morning National Rail Enquiries reported speed restrictions. This would have come from South West Trains and no doubt mentioned on their Twitter.

However it didn't reach South West Trains's journey check site. Not until after the speed restrictions had been lifted at 15.00, did it get a mention and it was called a former speed restriction. They merged all the reasons for delays into one update. So whilst the wind related speed restriction was lifted, it still existed at Raynes Park for the track defect and that was still causing delays to fast line trains. They were referring to Hampton Court services being cancelled even as they started running again.

It seems as if they were struggling to keep up with the changing picture today.

Everyone was struggling to keep up with what was happening today. My initial point was to say I was disappointed with people getting angry at the front line staff. Even on here fellow posters are kicking off about announcements or lack of them etc. The boots on the ground probably had as little idea what was going on as the customers. I had a similar experience in my job. I'm not sure the customers who were upset would be any happier getting announcements saying "We don't have a clue what is going on". I had a military welfare officer on the phone today who wouldn't get off the phone until I gave him answers. The people I needed answers from were out on the road trying to work out what was going on. In the end I had to say I can't give you answers and I can't get hold of anyone who can. We live in a very immediate society that expects answers to everything right away. It is not always possible.

 

[45107]

Utter Rubbish

So today travelled Bradford to Stockport and return, journey time same as yesterday. Reason travelled by Car, which I suspect with some localised exceptions was the same for most people travelling by car. Would I have stayed at home good grief no its the North of England IT GETS WINDY.

Meanwhile a lot of the UK rail Service was a complete shambles and frankly if the performance of Rail cannot be improved in this sort of Weather then maybe some of the investment should be taken away and moved to roads instead.

How do you stop trees falling onto the railway ?

 

[fowler9]

How do you stop trees falling onto the railway ?

Hold your wand out and say Levioso.

 

[45107]

So how do Network Rail plan ahead to remove fallen trees from the line ?
Can you tell them where the next one will fall so they get staff in place to remove it before a train hits it ?
the 50mph restrictions were imposed to minimise this risk.
The weather was bad enough that trees were falling in areas that were not expected to !

Railway at fault for not predicting tree fall ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ?

And I will add, as a TOC controller with a bit of experience in the role that this afternoon was one of the worst shifts I have encountered. (I can think of possibly 2 in 20+ years that have been as bad).
Call after call about trees and other objects obstructing the line. Estimates for clearance of the problem passing, being revised, then the train comes across another tree.
Plan put in place to run a train service, then getting scuppered by another fallen tree.
Yes it was foreseen. I knew on Wednesday that I would be walking into mayhem but unfortunately mother nature failed to let me (or any one else) know where she was going to deposit leaves on the line (attached to trees). May be the OP (JakeF) could offer an answer as to how the rail industry tackles this.

 

[mtmikethom]

What I don't understand is why the rail network has collapsed so badly despite the forewarning? I've been on trains in Sweden which ploughed through 3 feet of snow, trains in Norway which made light work of a sustained total blizzard and in Germany, despite ice, wind, snow etc causing line obstructions over winter there was nowhere near this level of disruption

I have been in Germany many times in recent years and suffered delayed trains many times owing to the very same reasons as here, and turfed off trains turning short of destination with minimal communication from staff, German Rail is not as necessarily good as some of the 'experts' make it out to be.
Luckily in Germany they find much easier to use diversionary routes when problems arise no doubt due to much more electrified routes and probably increased route knowledge.
As for Sweden I see to recall in recent years they have been bottom of the league table in Europe with regards time keeping on their High Speed routes!

 

[muz379]

Utter Rubbish

So today travelled Bradford to Stockport and return, journey time same as yesterday. Reason travelled by Car, which I suspect with some localised exceptions was the same for most people travelling by car. Would I have stayed at home good grief no its the North of England IT GETS WINDY.

Meanwhile a lot of the UK rail Service was a complete shambles and frankly if the performance of Rail cannot be improved in this sort of Weather then maybe some of the investment should be taken away and moved to roads instead.

But if and when trees fall onto roads they are by their sheer nature accessible because they are roads .

If a tree falls on a railway line possibly damaging overhead wires , possibly too large for train crew to move on their own its a case of waiting then for resources to arive and help which because of the inaccessibility can take time . Because of the environments lines are built in with embankments and trees all over the place trees are going to fall on the line in weather like this .

There are certain weather conditions in which trains run reasonably unaffected but roads grind to a halt . Take heavy snow , railways run reasonably unaffected . Roads usually grind to a halt .

 

[fowler9]

But if and when trees fall onto roads they are by their sheer nature accessible because they are roads .

If a tree falls on a railway line possibly damaging overhead wires , possibly too large for train crew to move on their own its a case of waiting then for resources to arive and help which because of the inaccessibility can take time . Because of the environments lines are built in with embankments and trees all over the place trees are going to fall on the line in weather like this .

One of the main trunk roads in to Liverpool was blocked off due to a tree falling on Aigburth Road. All traffic was diverted along some less than dual carriageway roads. If you take everyone off the train and stick them in a car what do you reckon the roads are like? Instant gridlock. Nice idea though.

 

[45107]

Hold your wand out and say Levioso.

Cheers, I'll try that one next time. Don't hold out much hope though.

 

[amateur]

Perhaps because the train companies fail to communicate with their customers.

This morning there were no messages on my train or station saying "don't travel". This evening the train company app was saying "problems earlier, everything fine by the time you get here".

So where does the blame sit.

you're stoopid. it was all on the news the night before, that there would be major travel disruption on thursday in anticipation of storm doris. indeed, i believe this thread started on wednesday. edit; just checked OP. started on Tuesday.

it was on TOCs' twitter pages the night before.

. unless one doesn't have access to internet/news ....i was expecting everything to go tits up by 11:00am. I checked ldb at 9:00am, and then later again.

 

[Merseysider]

So how do Network Rail plan ahead to remove fallen trees from the line ?
Can you tell them where the next one will fall so they get staff in place to remove it before a train hits it ?
the 50mph restrictions were imposed to minimise this risk.
The weather was bad enough that trees were falling in areas that were not expected to !

Railway at fault for not predicting tree fall ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ?

After wading through several unneccesary question marks and exclamation points (you only need to use one per sentence, any more and you start to look ridiculous, nine is rather over the top), and ignoring the rhetorical questions, I've found nothing except you jumping to a rather stretched conclusion. I asked a genuine question, and didn't once say that the railway was at fault. I was just surprised that things went tits up to the extent that they did.

Thanks to the other posters for your helpful answers