Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[HowardGWR]

Plymouth is run by a Labour Party emigre Welshman called Tudor Evans. As @Chris125 points out, he only has to think of his own area, as he won't be getting votes in Tavistock or Okehampton. I do not agree with @Chris125 that 'objectively' the Okehampton route makes the least economic sense. It depends how you define 'economic sense'.

 

[Busaholic]

I'd laugh my head off if the Dartmoor route kept having problems with snow Gets more snow than Dawlish gets wrecked

And the last time the A30 east of Okehampton was closed because of snow? Happens about once every five years, for one night only. And Haldon Hill, Exeter, between Exeter and Newton Abbot? Regularly whenever any snow hits the S.W., sometimes four or five times in a winter, drivers stuck all night,etc. Now which of those runs very close to the Exeter to Newton Abbot rail line I wonder.More scaremongering.

 

[yorksrob]

Plymouth is run by a Labour Party emigre Welshman called Tudor Evans. As @Chris125 points out, he only has to think of his own area, as he won't be getting votes in Tavistock or Okehampton.

Whilst this is true, it shows myopic lack of understanding of both transport and the economy, for Plymouth politicians to believe that voters in Plymouth have nothing to gain from better links with the rest of Devon.

 

[Busaholic]

Whilst this is true, it shows myopic lack of understanding of both transport and the economy, for Plymouth politicians to believe that voters in Plymouth have nothing to gain from better links with the rest of Devon.

Plymouth shopkeepers would also get extra trade from Okehampton and the places to the north and west of it which will use it as a railhead to avoid the horrible road into, and excessive parking charges in,Plymouth.

 

[yorksrob]

Plymouth shopkeepers would also get extra trade from Okehampton and the places to the north and west of it which will use it as a railhead to avoid the horrible road into, and excessive parking charges in,Plymouth.

Exactly. They should be champing at the bit to get the line reopened out of blatant self interest.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Whilst this is true, it shows myopic lack of understanding of both transport and the economy, for Plymouth politicians to believe that voters in Plymouth have nothing to gain from better links with the rest of Devon.

Plymouth shopkeepers would also get extra trade from Okehampton and the places to the north and west of it which will use it as a railhead to avoid the horrible road into, and excessive parking charges in,Plymouth.

Exactly. They should be champing at the bit to get the line reopened out of blatant self interest.

Agreed! Agreed! Agreed! They should all be shouting loudly with the same voice! Now is the golden moment, in a few months time it will all be too late, don't waste this chance because it may not come again, otherwise the people of Plymouth, Central Devon & Cornwall will finish up with nothing!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
An article on BBC South West News this morning, states that a new report by the Devon Maritime Forum, estimates the storm damage caused to the mainline at Dawlish, cost the economy up to £1.2b during the two months closure last winter...

 

[po8crg]

Don't be silly, Labour politicians in Plymouth don't want Plymouth business-owners to make more money - they all vote Tory!

 

[joeykins82]

I hate to rain on everyone's parade again but let's be honest here: the simultaneous reopening of Bere Alston to Okehampton and upgrading the entire Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton route to a mainline diversionary standard is absolutely not going to happen. It's a colossal waste of money when you compare it to the return on investment that the area gets from upgrading the sea defences because they wouldn't just protect the railway, they'd protect the towns as well.

Reopening to operate a local service with the capability of operating as an emergency freight diversion route definitely has merits, and I suspect that there is a lot of untapped demand and there would be big social benefits to a cost-effective reopening. However, suggesting that NR should spend hundreds of millions of pounds upgrading the line so that the TOCs could maybe send diverted trains that way by reversing twice, despite the facts that:

• road replacement from Exeter to Newton Abbot is faster
• services between Newton Abbot & Plymouth/Paignton would need to be maintained and there is presumably a lot of passenger flow between stations north/east of Exeter and places on the line that aren't beyond Plymouth
• doing so would almost certainly divert funds away from coastal defences around Dawlish thus increasing the likelihood of the main line being severed

I just don't see any sense in talking about Okehampton as a principal diversionary route.

Maybe I'm missing something though; I'm not from the area and I've only got NR's initial report to go on.

 

[po8crg]

As well as a freight diversion, also useful for the Night Riviera even if not many daytime long distances will go that way.

Having a diversion for the sleeper means that the Dawlish line is much easier to work on at nights as well.

 

[tbtc]

Whilst this is true, it shows myopic lack of understanding of both transport and the economy, for Plymouth politicians to believe that voters in Plymouth have nothing to gain from better links with the rest of Devon.

I'm sure that Plymouth would get some gain from a direct train service to the village of Okehampton. It's just that it would get a lot more gain from faster services to Exeter/Bristol/London, so that's the option that Plymouth council seem to prefer.

You keep falling into the trap of thinking that because your favourite option has some benefits to someone, it must be the only option. Nobody is suggesting that there'd be *no* benefit to an Okehampton service (for the people of Plymouth), just a lot less than improving the speed/reliability of servics to the city of Exeter.

Still, amusing to see the thread develop from "everyone in the south west wants an Okehampton route" to "people who think another option would be more beneficial must be myopic"

Maybe people in Plymouth see some benefit to an Okehampton route but significantly more benefit to their preferred option of a faster route to Exeter etc? How dare they... :roll:

Plymouth shopkeepers would also get extra trade from Okehampton and the places to the north and west of it which will use it as a railhead to avoid the horrible road into, and excessive parking charges in,Plymouth.

Yes, but presumably any extra trade from a village of five thousand people is less important to Plymouth than faster more reliable service to the cities of Exeter/Bristol/London.

The way people talk about Okehampton on this thread you'd think it were a city!

Plymouth is run by a Labour Party emigre Welshman called Tudor Evans. As @Chris125 points out, he only has to think of his own area, as he won't be getting votes in Tavistock or Okehampton

True - though many on here are outraged that the head of Plymouth council is more concerned about faster more reliable trains to big places like Exeter/Bristol/London etc than a direct link to little Okehampton (Plymouth to Okehampton is a flow so tiny that there's no commercial bus service between the two places).

HOW DARE THIS MAN REPRESENTING PLYMOUTH WANT WHAT'S BEST FOR PLYMOUTH!

Agreed! Agreed! Agreed! They should all be shouting loudly with the same voice! Now is the golden moment, in a few months time it will all be too late, don't waste this chance because it may not come again, otherwise the people of Plymouth, Central Devon & Cornwall will finish up with nothing!

They are seizing a chance for an improved railway between Plymouth and Exeter - they just prioritise a faster route than the backwater that nostalgic enthusiasts seem to prefer. Are they wrong to have that opinion?

An article on BBC South West News this morning, states that a new report by the Devon Maritime Forum, estimates the storm damage caused to the mainline at Dawlish, cost the economy up to £1.2b during the two months closure last winter...

These kind of figures just look silly. For £1,200,000,000 of damage between 4 February and 4 April, that'd be £20,000,000 of damage a day. £20,000,000.

Taking today as a baseline, there's sixty five trains eastbound from Newton Abbott to Exeter (obviously fewer at weekends, but I'm feeling generous so I'll use the day with the most services). Those break down into:

• 22 from Paignton to Exeter/ Exmouth
• 9 from Paignton to Bristol/Birmingham/Cardiff/Manchester/London
• 14 from Plymouth to Exeter/ London/ Manchester etc
• 20 from Penzance to Exeter/ London/ Manchester etc

...so (taking into account that the £20,000,000 of damage a day has to be divided between trains in both directions), that means each train that failed to run was worth around £150,000 to the local economy. £150,000 per train! Remember, a third of those trains were "Devon Metro" services from Paignton to Exeter/Exmouth (i.e. Pacer/150).

I know the figures have been eagerly swallowed up by the media, eager to scare people with big numbers, but if anyone stopped for a moment to think about how one cancelled train cost an average of £150,000... it's just nonsense!

(obviously I'm not saying that there was *no* cost to the local economy - before I get a response from someone along the lines of "so you think it was okay that everyone was cut off" - I'm just saying that coming up with a stupidly big number doesn't help things)

Why? Unlike the Conservatives they have no electoral reason to suggest an option which objectively makes the least economic sense.

Agreed!

 

[Ironside]

...so (taking into account that the £20,000,000 of damage a day has to be divided between trains in both directions), that means each train that failed to run was worth around £150,000 to the local economy. £150,000 per train! Remember, a third of those trains were "Devon Metro" services from Paignton to Exeter/Exmouth (i.e. Pacer/150).

I know the figures have been eagerly swallowed up by the media, eager to scare people with big numbers, but if anyone stopped for a moment to think about how one cancelled train cost an average of £150,000... it's just nonsense!

(obviously I'm not saying that there was *no* cost to the local economy - before I get a response from someone along the lines of "so you think it was okay that everyone was cut off" - I'm just saying that coming up with a stupidly big number doesn't help things)

Agreed!

So with £150,000 how much is that per person ? If there were 200 on average that would be £750 each, which seems a little high. ( 200 is a number I have guessed at so happy to be corrected if anybody has a better estimation)

 

[34104]

I'm sure that Plymouth would get some gain from a direct train service to the village of Okehampton. It's just that it would get a lot more gain from faster services to Exeter/Bristol/London, so that's the option that Plymouth council seem to prefer.

You keep falling into the trap of thinking that because your favourite option has some benefits to someone, it must be the only option. Nobody is suggesting that there'd be *no* benefit to an Okehampton service (for the people of Plymouth), just a lot less than improving the speed/reliability of servics to the city of Exeter.

Still, amusing to see the thread develop from "everyone in the south west wants an Okehampton route" to "people who think another option would be more beneficial must be myopic"

Maybe people in Plymouth see some benefit to an Okehampton route but significantly more benefit to their preferred option of a faster route to Exeter etc? How dare they... :roll:



Yes, but presumably any extra trade from a village of five thousand people is less important to Plymouth than faster more reliable service to the cities of Exeter/Bristol/London.

The way people talk about Okehampton on this thread you'd think it were a city!


True - though many on here are outraged that the head of Plymouth council is more concerned about faster more reliable trains to big places like Exeter/Bristol/London etc than a direct link to little Okehampton (Plymouth to Okehampton is a flow so tiny that there's no commercial bus service between the two places).

HOW DARE THIS MAN REPRESENTING PLYMOUTH WANT WHAT'S BEST FOR PLYMOUTH!



They are seizing a chance for an improved railway between Plymouth and Exeter - they just prioritise a faster route than the backwater that nostalgic enthusiasts seem to prefer. Are they wrong to have that opinion?



These kind of figures just look silly. For £1,200,000,000 of damage between 4 February and 4 April, that'd be £20,000,000 of damage a day. £20,000,000.

Taking today as a baseline, there's sixty five trains eastbound from Newton Abbott to Exeter (obviously fewer at weekends, but I'm feeling generous so I'll use the day with the most services). Those break down into:

• 22 from Paignton to Exeter/ Exmouth
• 9 from Paignton to Bristol/Birmingham/Cardiff/Manchester/London
• 14 from Plymouth to Exeter/ London/ Manchester etc
• 20 from Penzance to Exeter/ London/ Manchester etc

...so (taking into account that the £20,000,000 of damage a day has to be divided between trains in both directions), that means each train that failed to run was worth around £150,000 to the local economy. £150,000 per train! Remember, a third of those trains were "Devon Metro" services from Paignton to Exeter/Exmouth (i.e. Pacer/150).

I know the figures have been eagerly swallowed up by the media, eager to scare people with big numbers, but if anyone stopped for a moment to think about how one cancelled train cost an average of £150,000... it's just nonsense!

(obviously I'm not saying that there was *no* cost to the local economy - before I get a response from someone along the lines of "so you think it was okay that everyone was cut off" - I'm just saying that coming up with a stupidly big number doesn't help things)



Agreed!

Rather an ironic comment in that you seem to continually refer to Okehampton as a "village". It is in fact a town with a current population of 6000,projected to grow to 9000 by 2021.For sure it isn't a settlement of Shanghai proportions but it isn't that much smaller than Totnes, which seems to have no trouble in supporting a mainline station.

 

[po8crg]

Rather an ironic comment in that you seem to continually refer to Okehampton as a "village". It is in fact a town with a current population of 6000,projected to grow to 9000 by 2021.For sure it isn't a settlement of Shanghai proportions but it isn't that much smaller than Totnes, which seems to have no trouble in supporting a mainline station.

I grew up between a village of around 10,000 and a town of around 100,000. Which village has no rail at all, and is in a Met County.

10,000 seems like a normal size for a village to me, but that's probably me that's odd, not Okehampton.

The village is Billinge, incidentally - and if you google it, you'll see figures for only the Chapel End part in St Helens MBC; Higher End in Wigan MBC is also part of Billinge, but there's no separate figures for that because it lost its parish council in the nineteenth century.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Cranleigh is even larger & they want to expand it and if they get their way it will jump from just over 11000 to around 20000 in a very short space of time.

It used to have through services to Horsham & Brighton via Southwater & Guildford, before that Wayne Kerr called Beeching did away with it and now despite it only being 8 miles from Guildford it can take you the best part of an hour to get there in the rush hour & about 45' to Horsham, or if you know the back routes about 20-25' to get to either Horsley, Clandon or Godalming for London.

They don't bother with the North Downs line as the service across the section from Guildford to Redhill is pants (polite version) since the Western (Thames & FGW) got hold of it.

Anyway what's this got to do with Dawlish diversions?

 

[yorksrob]

Cranleigh is even larger & they want to expand it and if they get their way it will jump from just over 11000 to around 20000 in a very short space of time.

It used to have through services to Horsham & Brighton via Southwater & Guildford, before that Wayne Kerr called Beeching did away with it and now despite it only being 8 miles from Guildford it can take you the best part of an hour to get there in the rush hour & about 45' to Horsham, or if you know the back routes about 20-25' to get to either Horsley, Clandon or Godalming for London.

They don't bother with the North Downs line as the service across the section from Guildford to Redhill is pants (polite version) since the Western (Thames & FGW) got hold of it.

Anyway what's this got to do with Dawlish diversions?

Cranleigh is one of those places that does support a reopening campaign - justifiably in my opinion.

 

[21C101]

I grew up between a village of around 10,000 and a town of around 100,000. Which village has no rail at all, and is in a Met County.

10,000 seems like a normal size for a village to me, but that's probably me that's odd, not Okehampton.

The village is Billinge, incidentally - and if you google it, you'll see figures for only the Chapel End part in St Helens MBC; Higher End in Wigan MBC is also part of Billinge, but there's no separate figures for that because it lost its parish council in the nineteenth century.

The importance of Okehampton is not the population of Okehampton itself but the Parkway potential as a railhead for virtually entire population of Mid Devon (pop 77,900), West Devon (pop 53,700) and North Cornwall (pop 80,529). An area almost as remote from the nearest train service as the Galashiels is.

Indeed, a train from Waterloo to Sourton Parkway then driving along the A30 expressway would, even with current timings from Waterloo probably be a quicker journey to most of Cornwall than the GW route is.

As I understand it, the study proposed just a service from Plymouth to Exeter St Davids which in my opinion is a Strawman. Only an idiot would use Sourton Parkway if they had to change at Exeter St Davids and wait in the cold for (and miss) a connection at Exeter St Davids. Furthermore it would dump Exeter pax on the edge of town at the bottom of a steep hill a mile from the shops by not even going to Exeter Central (which is how WR did for that line and damn nearly did for the Barnstaple line in the first place)

Furthermore the Dawlish sea wall is the least of NRs worries. The risk of serious landslides etc. closing the line for long periods due to the miles of soft sandstone cliffs that tower above the line is not to be underestimated. Furthermore, WEST of Newton Abbot the line is like a corkscrew turning sharp corners on steep hillsides (think Leamington - Banbury this week).

SOMETHING has spooked the powers that be into taking this reopening idea beyond beyond soothing platitudes.

Undoubtably though, if it did open with through SWT trains to Waterloo, it would be very bad news for FGW, especially if there were six car 159s splitting at Crediton with Barnstaple and Plymouth portions every hour. However it would be fantastic news for North, Devon, Mid Devon, West Devon and North Cornwall.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If a line was reopened to serve Okehampton and then onward towards Exeter / Penzance - it would not only just open up new rail access but also it would give the residents a rail service and it would give an alternative route should Dawlish be closed.

 

[Bald Rick]

SOMETHING has spooked the powers that be into taking this reopening idea beyond beyond soothing platitudes.

May 7th
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So with £150,000 how much is that per person ? If there were 200 on average that would be £750 each, which seems a little high. ( 200 is a number I have guessed at so happy to be corrected if anybody has a better estimation)

Look a long way upthread. I did a similar calculation based on actual passenger numbers. Can't remember the number, but it was patently ludicrous.

There is no doubt that the temporary closure of the line caused some damage to the SW economy, but it was not £20 million per day or anything like it. I do wonder if the reason the tourist takings were reduced year on year by an estimated £140m (or whatever it was), was not that the line was closed, but because, well, the weather was a bit iffy. For a long time.

Meanwhile it's good to see the Devon Maritime forum giving authoritative reports on economic matters. I look forward to the Bank of England producing a report on the current state of the fish market at Brixham.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The importance of Okehampton is not the population of Okehampton itself but the Parkway potential as a railhead for virtually entire population of Mid Devon (pop 77,900), West Devon (pop 53,700) and North Cornwall (pop 80,529). An area almost as remote from the nearest train service as the Galashiels is.

Indeed, a train from Waterloo to Sourton Parkway then driving along the A30 expressway would, even with current timings from Waterloo probably be a quicker journey to most of Cornwall than the GW route is.

As I understand it, the study proposed just a service from Plymouth to Exeter St Davids which in my opinion is a Strawman. Only an idiot would use Sourton Parkway if they had to change at Exeter St Davids and wait in the cold for (and miss) a connection at Exeter St Davids. Furthermore it would dump Exeter pax on the edge of town at the bottom of a steep hill a mile from the shops by not even going to Exeter Central (which is how WR did for that line and damn nearly did for the Barnstaple line in the first place)

Furthermore the Dawlish sea wall is the least of NRs worries. The risk of serious landslides etc. closing the line for long periods due to the miles of soft sandstone cliffs that tower above the line is not to be underestimated. Furthermore, WEST of Newton Abbot the line is like a corkscrew turning sharp corners on steep hillsides (think Leamington - Banbury this week).

SOMETHING has spooked the powers that be into taking this reopening idea beyond beyond soothing platitudes.

Undoubtably though, if it did open with through SWT trains to Waterloo, it would be very bad news for FGW, especially if there were six car 159s splitting at Crediton with Barnstaple and Plymouth portions every hour. However it would be fantastic news for North, Devon, Mid Devon, West Devon and North Cornwall.

I keep hoping, because if they do reopen it, I'm hoping that SWT would put a crew depot down the at either Central or St Davids and that would suit me nicely to finish up in the West Country where I feel most at home & relaxed.

 

[34104]

Cranleigh is even larger & they want to expand it and if they get their way it will jump from just over 11000 to around 20000 in a very short space of time.

It used to have through services to Horsham & Brighton via Southwater & Guildford, before that Wayne Kerr called Beeching did away with it and now despite it only being 8 miles from Guildford it can take you the best part of an hour to get there in the rush hour & about 45' to Horsham, or if you know the back routes about 20-25' to get to either Horsley, Clandon or Godalming for London.

They don't bother with the North Downs line as the service across the section from Guildford to Redhill is pants (polite version) since the Western (Thames & FGW) got hold of it.

Anyway what's this got to do with Dawlish diversions? :s

Not very much as it happens, except that tbtc rather seems to revel in using less than complementary descriptions when referring to any aspect of the Southern/LSWR from Exeter to Plymouth-"meandering backwater, can only be described as a branch line, village of Okehampton etc".You certainly have to admire his stamina in dissecting anything that may be vaguely positive about the line though, even if his accuracy sometimes leaves a bit to be desired. Anyway,if there is any doubt about the status of Okehampton, this may put matters to bed;


http://www.okehampton.gov.uk/

Unless the good councillors of Okehampton are suffering from a dose of Megalomania of course.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Having just clicked on the OTC's picture banner I think it's a rather nice place.

As for your point about tbtc, I agree, I suspect it's just jealousy, that Plymouth could be better served to London than his Sheffield, should the reopening occur.

 

[Rapidash]

I look forward to the Bank of England producing a report on the current state of the fish market at Brixham

Best in the country for two years running!*

Still don't understand why people are so eager to see 2 million + pax journeys down in the bay, South Hams and Teignbridge ignored when it comes to if/when Dawlish gets smote again. No doubt 'the bus is quicker' answer will be forthcoming. Unless the bypass has magically acquired the ability to remove traffic into Exeter, I somehow doubt it.



You know you've lived in Fishtown for far to long when.....

 

[Phil from Mon]

Meanwhile it's good to see the Devon Maritime forum giving authoritative reports on economic matters. I look forward to the Bank of England producing a report on the current state of the fish market at Brixham.

As a peninsula with a long coastline and highly dependent on a number of marine-related activities for its economy I would think the Devon Maritime Forum would be perfectly justified in doing this. In West Wales the Pembrokeshire Coast Forum are highly respected by both public and private sectors for this sort of thing.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Best in the country for two years running!*

Still don't understand why people are so eager to see 2 million + pax journeys down in the bay, South Hams and Teignbridge ignored when it comes to if/when Dawlish gets smote again. No doubt 'the bus is quicker' answer will be forthcoming. Unless the bypass has magically acquired the ability to remove traffic into Exeter, I somehow doubt it.



You know you've lived in Fishtown for far to long when.....

For most of us who favour a reinstated LSW route, the last thing we would wish is for the GWR route to be neglected, and likewise the coastal towns, Torbay & the South Hams. Indeed for me, improving the sea defences, upgrading the infrastructure and capacity improvements are equally as important as reopening via Okehampton, the fact of the matter is a Dawlish cut off is not going to get built any time soon, the cost is just to prohibitive, and how does such a line benefit Dawlish & Teignmouth? I think we will just have to wait and see what the next report finds and if for example Meldon viaduct is found to be still capable to carry mainline rail traffic, that could signal the green light for reopening at a much more favourable cost than any of the other options, not to mention the shortest timescale for construction.

 

[Busaholic]

Not very much as it happens, except that tbtc rather seems to revel in using less than complementary descriptions when referring to any aspect of the Southern/LSWR from Exeter to Plymouth-"meandering backwater, can only be described as a branch line, village of Okehampton etc".You certainly have to admire his stamina in dissecting anything that may be vaguely positive about the line though, even if his accuracy sometimes leaves a bit to be desired. Anyway,if there is any doubt about the status of Okehampton, this may put matters to bed;


http://www.okehampton.gov.uk/

Unless the good councillors of Okehampton are suffering from a dose of Megalomania of course.

A case of inverted snobbery, perhaps? Any of us down here in Cornwall too are living in fantasy land, clutching copies of John Betjeman's poems to our collective bosom while we go and dally with milkmaids, or some such claptrap. Still, better than the reality of South Yorkshire, eh?, Rotherham with its unfit-for-purpose local authority, Doncaster which was the first authority to feature in Private Eye's 'Rotten Boroughs' series a quarter of a century ago and is still featured in virtually every issue, Hillsborough, etc etc, Oh, and putting pensioners in strangleholds when they have the temerity to make a democratic protest about travel passes. Methinks someone protests too much.

 

[The Ham]

Although the DAL would be quicker, how much difference to passenger numbers would being able to get to Plymouth a few minutes faster from London? If timings are so critical then the use of 22x's would be welcomed with open arms as it would reduce journey times by about as much (through better acceleration and not needing to worry about doors being left open) for a much lower cost.

I expect very little compared with the number of passengers who could get to Plymouth quite a bit faster on a direct service, or with just one change, if the SWT's service was extended (Southampton, Portsmouth, Salisbury, Weymouth, Woking, even some of the outer edges of London) which could generate many more passengers and income than any of the local settlements.

It takes quite a few people doing a local journey to cover the income of just one person travelling a longer distance such as from Southampton.

Of course there would be local benefits in Plymouth beyond people from Okehampton. For example, Plymouth businesses could benefit from people who live in Tavistok and work in Exeter spending leisure time (& therefore money) in Plymouth.

 

[PHILIPE]

This is not really about Okehampton. It is about a possible alternative route and Okehampton happens to be along it.

 

[yorksrob]

Meanwhile it's good to see the Devon Maritime forum giving authoritative reports on economic matters. I look forward to the Bank of England producing a report on the current state of the fish market at Brixham.

They probably would have done as good a job predicting the 2008 financial crisis.

 

[johnnychips]

A case of inverted snobbery, perhaps? Any of us down here in Cornwall too are living in fantasy land, clutching copies of John Betjeman's poems to our collective bosom while we go and dally with milkmaids, or some such claptrap. Still, better than the reality of South Yorkshire, eh?, Rotherham with its unfit-for-purpose local authority, Doncaster which was the first authority to feature in Private Eye's 'Rotten Boroughs' series a quarter of a century ago and is still featured in virtually every issue, Hillsborough, etc etc, Oh, and putting pensioners in strangleholds when they have the temerity to make a democratic protest about travel passes. Methinks someone protests too much.

I'm proud of where I live, despite some shortcomings; I can see you're proud of where you live and I'm sure you recognise some inadequacies in your councils too. However your post adds nothing to the discussion about the trains. Please don't let this excellent forum descend to inter-regional bitching.

Personally, I think Devon and Cornwall have been the victim of underinvestment, possibly because their population is dispersed and it's hard to have their opinions and influence concentrated into one voice, compared to a highly densely populated region like Greater Manchester,

 

[yorksrob]

A case of inverted snobbery, perhaps? Any of us down here in Cornwall too are living in fantasy land, clutching copies of John Betjeman's poems to our collective bosom while we go and dally with milkmaids, or some such claptrap.

Indeed. The insinuation that any resident of the South West who isn't fixated on a ten minute time saving on the mainline is somehow a UKIP voting poetry obsessive bumpkin, is laughable tabloid level drivel.