SWR Class 458 to be retained

[swr444]

Sorry if this has been covered already. I saw innumerable 458s running today and every single one of them showed 'London Waterloo' as the destination, notwithstanding where they were actually going (many were to Windsor). Are they incapable of showing anything else?! I also saw at least two 455 formations on the Reading run when I would have thought 458s or 450s would have been preferable, given that the reduced timetable presumably means a lot of spare stock today.

There probably isn't a PIS code for the route towards windsor that works and so the destination screen doesn't change

 

[dctraindriver]

There probably isn't a PIS code for the route towards windsor that works and so the destination screen doesn't change

There is for Windsor, but maybe the driver didn’t know the pis code and it might not have been recorded on the schedule sheet.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

There is for Windsor, but maybe the driver didn’t know the pis code and it might not have been recorded on the schedule sheet.

The original PIS system on 458's was a different beast to that which applied on other fleets as I recall, but can't now remember what was what. If there is any operational difference now a days?

 

[Elorith]

Sorry if this has been covered already. I saw innumerable 458s running today and every single one of them showed 'London Waterloo' as the destination, notwithstanding where they were actually going (many were to Windsor). Are they incapable of showing anything else?! I also saw at least two 455 formations on the Reading run when I would have thought 458s or 450s would have been preferable, given that the reduced timetable presumably means a lot of spare stock today.

There probably isn't a PIS code that has the correct calling pattern for Windsor via Brentford, so perhaps the driver left it as "London Waterloo" instead of the alternative of leaving it empty which would display "Not In Service" which might be even more confusing.

On a 450, and I believe on a 707, the guard can put a code in for the correct final destination to update the dot matrix on the outside, but turn off the calling pattern in favour of manual PA. But that's not possible with a 458.

 

[swr444]

There probably isn't a PIS code that has the correct calling pattern for Windsor via Brentford, so perhaps the driver left it as "London Waterloo" instead of the alternative of leaving it empty which would display "Not In Service" which perhaps might even more confusing.

On a 450, and I believe on a 707, the guard can put a code in for the correct final destination to update the dot matrix on the outside, but turn off the calling pattern in favour of manual PA. But that's not possible with a 458.

I've just checked and there's technically no code because of Queenstown road being shut, they could put the specific code in then the driver can override it at clapham to make it announce the correct stops post that stop, but some people find that too much effort as the TMS on a juniper is very tempremental.

 

[43096]

I've just checked and there's technically no code because of Queenstown road being shut, they could put the specific code in then the driver can override it at clapham to make it announce the correct stops post that stop, but some people find that too much effort as the TMS on a juniper is very tempremental.

Too much effort... Which makes the service not PRM compliant when it is needed most with non-standard stopping patterns.

 

[swr444]

Too much effort... Which makes the service not PRM compliant when it is needed most with non-standard stopping patterns.

This is a big problem with the out-of-date PIS systems used on basically all of the SWR stock. Manual announcements are almost the norm at weekends

 

[gabrielhj07]

Doesn't help that the 458 automated announcements sound like they're spitting at you!

 

[43096]

This is a big problem with the out-of-date PIS systems used on basically all of the SWR stock. Manual announcements are almost the norm at weekends

Given that there is a NR data feed used by the likes of RTT that can cope with any number of changed schedules and that the GPS location of stations is also known, it cannot be beyond the wit of someone to develop a PIS system that allows the crew to easily select the service they're operating and it then picks up the schedule live (so could also adjust automatically when stops are cancelled).

 

[swr444]

Given that there is a NR data feed used by the likes of RTT that can cope with any number of changed schedules and that the GPS location of stations is also known, it cannot be beyond the wit of someone to develop a PIS system that allows the crew to easily select the service they're operating and it then picks up the schedule live (so could also adjust automatically when stops are cancelled).

It is the case on many new rolling stocks and refurbs, the 185s are an example where you simply type in the trains head code and the computer does the rest. A real shame this wasn't put on the 444 and 450s when they were refurbished.

 

[TEW]

Given that there is a NR data feed used by the likes of RTT that can cope with any number of changed schedules and that the GPS location of stations is also known, it cannot be beyond the wit of someone to develop a PIS system that allows the crew to easily select the service they're operating and it then picks up the schedule live (so could also adjust automatically when stops are cancelled).

From what I was told the PIS system on most the SWR fleet is effectively updated via floppy disks. The data has to be manually uploaded to each train whenever any changes are made.

It's really rather outdated nowadays. The system itself works fine when compared to a lot of other systems but only works properly if the correct calling pattern exists in the system.

On 444/450/455 at least there is no ability to alter calling patterns, origins or destinations. There are codes loaded for all the booked LTP calling patterns, and a lot of the more common STP stuff, but not everything. And if there are alterations it relies on the guard knowing that there is a suitable PIS code and then having the time to look it up, which is a case of searching through a document with them all listed in.

 

[Deepgreen]

Thanks for all the responses - so, essentially, passenger information on SWR is a low priority, and has been for some time in my experience. SWT were little better either. As technology advances, information accuracy for passengers often worsens! As some have said, at the very time (disruption, strike changes, etc.) when information is most important, it fails.

 

[Goldfish62]

Thanks for all the responses - so, essentially, passenger information on SWR is a low priority, and has been for some time in my experience. SWT were little better either. As technology advances, information accuracy for passengers often worsens! As some have said, at the very time (disruption, strike changes, etc.) when information is most important, it fails.

The PIS on the 458s always was rubbish. In my experience even on the standard Reading calling pattern it only operates around 50% of the time. The PA system sound quality is also very poor so any manual announcements are often indecipherable.

 

[Deepgreen]

The PIS on the 458s always was rubbish. In my experience even on the standard Reading calling pattern it only operates around 50% of the time. The PA system sound quality is also very poor so any manual announcements are often indecipherable.

Yes, the ones I was on the other day were uniformly awful. I wonder what the position is with such failures to provide information regarding disability discrimination (DDA) non-compliance. There should come a point where there is deemed to be a non-compliance when the kit/system is so useless. SWT/SWR have been, and continue to be, one of the worst TOCs in this regard. The ludicrous saga of the SWT 456s' cab front destination indicators (being absent for at least two years after transfer from Southern) never seemed to come to anything but that was a straightforward long-term breach of DDA requirements. I'm surprised nothing has been made of the TL 700s' useless cab front indicators, which are unusable in any daylight conditions.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, the ones I was on the other day were uniformly awful. I wonder what the position is with such failures to provide information regarding disability discrimination (DDA) non-compliance. There should come a point where there is deemed to be a non-compliance when the kit/system is so useless. SWT/SWR have been, and continue to be, one of the worst TOCs in this regard. The ludicrous saga of the SWT 456s' cab front destination indicators (being absent for at least two years after transfer from Southern) never seemed to come to anything but that was a straightforward long-term breach of DDA requirements. I'm surprised nothing has been made of the TL 700s' useless cab front indicators, which are unusable in any daylight conditions.

There has been talk over the years of replacing the 458s' hopeless PIS, but it's come to nothing. I wonder if it is/was planned in the current / maybe not happening programme.

 

[antharro]

I can't imagine being the designer of the PIS and demoing it to the client. "Yeah, we've got a load of speakers in each carriage and a PA mic at each guard's station. But you can't hear owt; it's distorted a quarter of the time, drowned out by track noise a quarter of the time and doesn't work for the remainder. Happy? Great, sign here."

 

[davews]

A while back on a late starting 458 from Waterloo. Guard comes on the PIS and chats for what seemed a long while but nobody in the carriage could hear a word he was saying. Train then continues to run non stop right through to Staines...... There were some very upset passengers who got off there who had to catch a train back the other way.

 

[Bessie]

Does anyone know what will happen to the 2 completed 458 refurbished units at Widnes? I assume these are off lease and will just end up being stored rather than being put back into service. More money poured down the drain!

 

[gmaguire]

Does anyone know what will happen to the 2 completed 458 refurbished units at Widnes? I assume these are off lease and will just end up being stored rather than being put back into service. More money poured down the drain!

Post number 1090 below says they will be returned to SWR and they will decide how to use them.

I’m assuming if they have different gearing they can only work in multiple with each other and not with the other 458s.

There is some truth to that "internal e-mail". The 458 refurb programme has been paused, but it is due to funding no longer being mad available for the conversion and not because of corrosion (Which was addressed when they were converted to five cars). With the potential surplus of 701s when fully in service there will be no need for the 458s as 450s will be able to cover the Portsmouth routes. The current 458s will remain on lease until the end of 2024 when a final decision will be made whether to resurrect the refurb project, or withdraw the units. The two four car conversions currently at Widnes will be returned to SWR for them to decide how to use them. Incidentally the 455s will also remain on lease until the end of 2024 which gives you some confidence (or lack of) about how long the introduction of the 701s might take. The 455s being withdrawn when there are 701s available to enter service.

 

[Goldfish62]

I can't imagine being the designer of the PIS and demoing it to the client. "Yeah, we've got a load of speakers in each carriage and a PA mic at each guard's station. But you can't hear owt; it's distorted a quarter of the time, drowned out by track noise a quarter of the time and doesn't work for the remainder. Happy? Great, sign here."

The 458s were poorly designed and built.

As I understand it because SWT had specified them on the basis of DOO which was subsequently never introduced the rudimentary TMS doesn't like it if someone other than the driver is using the PA. On the odd occasion in the past when a driver has used the PA it's been crystal clear.

 

[Elorith]

I can't imagine being the designer of the PIS and demoing it to the client. "Yeah, we've got a load of speakers in each carriage and a PA mic at each guard's station. But you can't hear owt; it's distorted a quarter of the time, drowned out by track noise a quarter of the time and doesn't work for the remainder. Happy? Great, sign here."

You don't even get one at the local doors in middle coach of each unit; they were only ever installed in the cabs. So if you are working a service that needs manual PA, they are effectively work-from-cab only even on a service with slightly more time between the stops.

 

[infobleep]

I'm on my first class 458 journey to Haslemere. The 21:45 London Waterloo to Haslemere service.

It is only 5 coaches and it has no first class. I've not read all of the thread here so I'm sure first class or lack of it has been discussed.

The floor needs a good clean, as do the windows but the seat is reasonably comfortable. I haven't inspected the loo.

Certainly not as nice as the 450s, let alone 444s but I guess if they get people from A to B then job done.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Certainly not as nice as the 450s, let alone 444s but I guess if they get people from A to B then job done.

I can think of a number of users on here that would disagree.

 

[Goldfish62]

I can think of a number of users on here that would disagree.

Absolute heaps of junk. I've had 20+ years of them and can't wait to see the back of them.

 

[infobleep]

Absolute heaps of junk. I've had 20+ years of them and can't wait to see the back of them.

Well, that won't be any time soon. Which line do you mostly use?

From a selfish point of view, I would have liked the 442 project to have work but I accept it wasn't disabled-friendly. I guess as that doesn't work out 458 it is.

Not much help to people who buy first-class tickets though and assume all services have first class. They did but now they don't.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well, that won't be any time soon. Which line do you mostly use?

Reading

 

[JonathanH]

The floor needs a good clean

They have been like that since day 1. It has always been impossible to make the floors of the 458s look clean.

 

[fgwrich]

Absolute heaps of junk. I've had 20+ years of them and can't wait to see the back of them.

Seconded. Leaky, dirty and past their best, turning them into Triggers Broom Express 458s wont improve them.

 

[Goldfish62]

They have been like that since day 1. It has always been impossible to make the floors of the 458s look clean.

It got better with the transfer from SWT to SWR, but recently standards have been slipping.

 

[43096]

Absolute heaps of junk. I've had 20+ years of them and can't wait to see the back of them.

I’ve had 20+ years of them and think they’re the best trains the Reading line has had (although the CEPs we got occasionally aren far behind).