SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Peter Sarf]

The 455s are over 40 years old and the retractioning was based on an extended 10 year life, which is nearly up.

Plus the not insignificant issue that the 455/458 fleet provides insufficient capacity now, let alone catering for future growth.

Gosh is the re-tractioning already ten years ago !. But then I am wondering how come it was only expected to last ten years ?. Some components not needing a change ten years ago ?.

 

[swt_passenger]

Gosh is the re-tractioning already ten years ago !. But then I am wondering how come it was only expected to last ten years ?. Some components not needing a change ten years ago ?.

I don’t think 10 years was its expected life, but it was the required minimum payback period to justify doing it. To me that’s quite different.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don’t think 10 years was its expected life, but it was the required minimum payback period to justify doing it. To me that’s quite different.

Oh yes, of course. So therefore they (455s) can soldier on but from an accounting point of view no residual value to worry about. Makes the 458s easier to drop if their lease is up ?.

 

[RealTrains07]

The 455s are over 40 years old and the retractioning was based on an extended 10 year life, which is nearly up.

They are barely 40, the first examples only entered service in 83 and majority were built between 83 and 85.

Not nearly as old as people think

 

[JonathanH]

They are barely 40, the first examples only entered service in 83 and majority were built between 83 and 85.

Not nearly as old as people think

The 508 coaches in the 455/7s are over 40.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They are barely 40, the first examples only entered service in 83 and majority were built between 83 and 85.

Not nearly as old as people think

I'd say between the age of 38 and 40 is fairly nearly to "over 40," especially as the 701s are far off a full introduction.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not nearly as old as people think

I think the average punter would be most unimpressed to think they're travelling on a 40 - ish year old train.

Anyway, it's an academic debate. They're going off to the scrapyard, no doubt starting in earnest next year.

Some enthusiasts may love them because they're old, but that view isn't shared by the average passenger.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The 455s are over 40 years old and the retractioning was based on an extended 10 year life, which is nearly up.

Modern electronics will last for decades. Look at 315's the thyristors were never upgraded in nearly 40 years. Biggest issue is body corrosion but at least no toilets.

 

[Goldfish62]

Modern electronics will last for decades. Look at 315's the thyristors were never upgraded in nearly 40 years. Biggest issue is body corrosion but at least no toilets.

And what about the structural integrity of the coaches?

The 455s are due for withdrawal whether certain people like it or not.

 

[pompeyfan]

The 455s are due for withdrawal whether certain people like it or not.

And so they should be. They no longer fulfil the requirements of modern passenger journeys. I don’t think it’s too much to ask from passengers for toilets, air con and doors that don’t violently when a service on the fast line rattles past. Don’t get me wrong, they’ve done a job, and they’ve done it very well. I find it mildly amusing that one of the most affluent parts of the country are served by the oldest EMUs still in service (?), certainly the oldest trains running into London from the suburbs.

Back to 458s, still nothing internally or externally but the case is building to reintroduce them to the Windsor side and my (completely personal) opinion is that is what they’ll do. I would imagine they’re not able to pause the project without severe penalty’s, and with the 701s still not looking to enter service en mass, they’ll need something. I’m not sure how long a cab refurb would take or cost, but it’s probably cheaper than pausing the 458 project.

 

[Snow1964]

Back to 458s, still nothing internally or externally but the case is building to reintroduce them to the Windsor side and my (completely personal) opinion is that is what they’ll do. I would imagine they’re not able to pause the project without severe penalty’s, and with the 701s still not looking to enter service en mass, they’ll need something. I’m not sure how long a cab refurb would take or cost, but it’s probably cheaper than pausing the 458 project.

Although contractual details of 458 refurb and conversion to 4car have never been made public, presumably because of commercial confidentiality, I agree the penalties of cancellation probably so high it is not worth stopping.

It's in the DfT SWR published contract that as part of the conversion the 112 (28 x 4car) have an agreed lease extension. Therefore going to be paying for the work and continuing to lease the 28 units being converted for few years.

Having got them, which lines they will be running on in 2024 is a separate question

 

[pompeyfan]

Although contractual details of 458 refurb and conversion to 4car have never been made public, presumably because of commercial confidentiality, I agree the penalties of cancellation probably so high it is not worth stopping.

It's in the DfT SWR published contract that as part of the conversion the 112 (28 x 4car) have an agreed lease extension. Therefore going to be paying for the work and continuing to lease the 28 units being converted for few years.

Having got them, which lines they will be running on in 2024 is a separate question

Factoring in training costs for crew, it would make sense to keep them closer to London. Potentially with some juggling stock and crew diagrams, and Guildford and Basingstoke (both relatively small depots), they could be self contained on Haslemeres, Alton’s and Basingstoke to release some Desiros onto Readings, or just keep them on Readings!

 

[Sean Emmett]

IIRC the whole point of the 458/5 project was to create more capacity overall. A five car 458 with 2+2 seating has about the same number of seats as the original four car, but much more standing space and room around the doors to minimise dwell times.

Beggars belief they could be coming back as 4 cars with all that good work undone! Or even worse, simply smartened up for their final trip to Newport.

I do Ascot - Waterloo maybe once a week in the peaks, usually on Tues. Certainly getting busier.

Pre-Covid 6 trains in the busiest hour, 4 ex Reading and 2 ex Farnham. Now only the 4 (2 RDG, 2 FNH) and increasingly short-formed or cancelled altogether.

Someone needs to sort the 701 fiasco. Now.

 

[aliceh]

Should the refurb 458s be put solely on the Windsor and Ascot lines, I wonder what that would mean for maintenance - if memory serves, SWR made a big thing about them being looked after by Bournemouth depot, and diagrams including a daily Waterloo to Poole to get sets down that way. Surely they'd have to redraw a fair few diagrams to have that happen if they're pulled from the Pompey? And crew knowledge could factor in too. (I don't have any clue how easy any of that would be)

 

[43096]

Someone needs to sort the 701 fiasco. Now.

This.

Went into Waterloo yesterday on the Reading line and it was the busiest it’s been since Covid: standing room only after Egham on the 0609 from Reading.

I get the distinct impression it is the Windsor lines being particularly screwed by the ongoing fiasco (and WorstGroup’s utterly inept management). The 10-car trains are disappearing without replacement, short-forms are increasingly common, journey times get longer every year, etc etc etc. Bringing 458/4s onto these services doesn’t help capacity: still only 8-car and with fewer seats. There’s also no sign of the peak extras that were withdrawn post-Covid returning (these would help with the 8-vice-10 issue as well): 1735/1805/1835 ex-Waterloo all need to come back, at least mid-week.

 

[TEW]

Should the refurb 458s be put solely on the Windsor and Ascot lines, I wonder what that would mean for maintenance - if memory serves, SWR made a big thing about them being looked after by Bournemouth depot, and diagrams including a daily Waterloo to Poole to get sets down that way. Surely they'd have to redraw a fair few diagrams to have that happen if they're pulled from the Pompey? And crew knowledge could factor in too. (I don't have any clue how easy any of that would be)

More likely that if they were to be used on the Windsor Lines temporarily to cover for 701s that they would just be maintained at Wimbledon as per the 458/5s.

 

[Goldfish62]

Back to 458s, still nothing internally or externally but the case is building to reintroduce them to the Windsor side and my (completely personal) opinion is that is what they’ll do. I would imagine they’re not able to pause the project without severe penalty’s, and with the 701s still not looking to enter service en mass, they’ll need something. I’m not sure how long a cab refurb would take or cost, but it’s probably cheaper than pausing the 458 project.

Given that crew training has seemingly started on the 701s I would say that they most certainly will be entering service en masse. However, it seems inevitable that there'll be a shortfall of stock in the interim, so temporary use on the Windsor lines would indeed seem sensible.

There's of course still the issue of capacity. Only recently one all day diagrammed pair of 450s on Reading services has started being swapped out mid-afternoon for a pair of 458s for additional capacity in the PM peak.

 

[43096]

There's of course still the issue of capacity. Only recently one all day diagrammed pair of 450s on Reading services has started being swapped out mid-afternoon for a pair of 458s for additional capacity in the PM peak.

The 1750 Waterloo-Reading went over to 707s for a while, until they left. It’s now booked 10-458 and usually wedged. They need to reinstate the 1735 - but seemingly won’t as it’s not planned for December.

 

[SWT_USER]

Where demand, and therefore revenue, has reduced, there isn't really a good argument for maintaining the previous service, or capacity.

I'm not arguing for the full pre pandemic timetable, but the current situation is ridiculous.

Given revenue is down there isn't a good argument for SWR spending millions of pounds to further reduce capacity on the Windsor lines but it's happening anyway (I know, contracts etc etc).

 

[Bigfoot]

Given that crew training has seemingly started on the 701s

But it hasn't. Not sure where this idea keeps coming from.

 

[Southerntravel]

The main plan is for Bournemouth to maintain most of the fleet, however that would mean that unless they run 458s on some of the super early/late Bournemouth /Poole Terminators then Weymouth crews will have to have knowledge of them and they may have to appear on some of those services, especially the ones that are ex-Weymouth and then form Pompey services and vice versa as since a recent timetable change there are no Poole - Wat services apart from the first 2 and last few services of the day, most Poole terminators now detach off the xx:05 off Waterloo to Weymouth at Bournemouth, terminate at Poole then return to attach to the front of the xx:20 off Weymouth.

 

[swt_passenger]

The main plan is for Bournemouth to maintain most of the fleet, however that would mean that unless they run 458s on some of the super early/late Bournemouth /Poole Terminators then Weymouth crews will have to have knowledge of them and they may have to appear on some of those services, especially the ones that are ex-Weymouth and then form Pompey services and vice versa as since a recent timetable change there are no Poole - Wat services apart from the first 2 and last few services of the day, most Poole terminators now detach off the xx:05 off Waterloo to Weymouth at Bournemouth, terminate at Poole then return to attach to the front of the xx:20 off Weymouth.

Most stabling at Fratton and maintenance at Bournemouth was the intention for the 442s, and did include early and late services from or to Bournemouth, effectively for stock rotation. I’m sure they’ll have a similar plan in case they’re ever introduced onto the Portsmouth route. How often would they need to visit Bournemouth, once a week perhaps?

 

[Southerntravel]

Most stabling at Fratton and maintenance at Bournemouth was the intention for the 442s, and did include early and late services from or to Bournemouth, effectively for stock rotation. I’m sure they’ll have a similar plan in case they’re ever introduced onto the Portsmouth route. How often would they need to visit Bournemouth, once a week perhaps?

Then that would work well with the early/late Bournemouth/Poole Terminators. I had assumed it was full stabling at Bournemouth too

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Edit: Better in 701 thread to avoid off topic discussion. Have moved.

 

[Monty]

Back to 458s, still nothing internally or externally but the case is building to reintroduce them to the Windsor side and my (completely personal) opinion is that is what they’ll do. I would imagine they’re not able to pause the project without severe penalty’s, and with the 701s still not looking to enter service en mass, they’ll need something. I’m not sure how long a cab refurb would take or cost, but it’s probably cheaper than pausing the 458 project.

The lease is fixed until 2027, so the company has to pay for them regardless of their use, and even if they are stored the contract stipulates they must go into warm storage meaning the units have to be driven periodically. There was never any question of the project being stopped, the real question is where. It could be the Windsor Line in the short term but I expect they will eventually see use on the PDL as intended.

 

[FOH]

The lease is fixed until 2027, so the company has to pay for them regardless of their use, and even if they are stored the contract stipulates they must go into warm storage meaning the units have to be driven periodically. There was never any question of the project being stopped, the real question is where. It could be the Windsor Line in the short term but I expect they will eventually see use on the PDL as intended.

Have I missed something? It felt the last 30 thread pages had a common theme of the ROSCO wanted to do the work, it was contracted for 4 units. Only 4 would be done. The drivers union were against introduction on the PDL but that's fine as SWR don't plan on using them anyway.

 

[Snow1964]

Have I missed something? It felt the last 30 thread pages had a common theme of the ROSCO wanted to do the work, it was contracted for 4 units. Only 4 would be done. The drivers union were against introduction on the PDL but that's fine as SWR don't plan on using them anyway.

It would appear a pilot order of 4 did exist, as that quantity appeared a number of times months ago. But now seems the main order is underway.

Also appears the lease was extended on 28 (4car) units at the time of conversion contract. I am guessing the two are linked because it wouldn't make any financial sense to spend money on the refurb without a committed lease income for few years.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It would appear a pilot order of 4 did exist, as that quantity appeared a number of times months ago. But now seems the main order is underway.

Also appears the lease was extended on 28 (4car) units at the time of conversion contract. I am guessing the two are linked because it wouldn't make any financial sense to spend money on the refurb without a committed lease income for few years.

I can imagine keeping them on the Windsors might not trigger the ire of drivers there as they are already using them !. Well not as much as on the PDL.

 

[H&I]

When are the refurbished trains going to re-enter service? Thanks.

 

[Peter Sarf]

When are the refurbished trains going to re-enter service? Thanks.

Who knows ! - that is what all the conjecture is about at the moment.