SWR December 2022 Timetable Consultation

[Ianno87]

Another cyinical view that I have but hope they don't put in place is that they are just going to cut services out of the existing timetable as that is quick and easy rather than recast it to make fewer services work for passengers, e.g. that Clapham Junction call I keep mentioning.

Trouble with a proper recast would then be then making it harder to reinstate services at a later date should they be required, as the structural capacity of the timetable is diminished.

 

[infobleep]

Trouble with a proper recast would then be then making it harder to reinstate services at a later date should they be required, as the structural capacity of the timetable is diminished.

Good point. Is not thought of that.

How likely are they to reinstate services or is the DfT or Treasury every cautious? One only has to look at how long it took to do certain things on the line. I remember the packed 18:39 5 car train from Waterloo to Poole, running for longer than it should have done with that number of carriages and increasing passenger numbers.

 

[pompeyfan]

If you're referring to contributors on here I think that's a rather cynical view.

I mean in general, it’s human nature to be selfish. How many times have you been on a bus and got very slightly frustrated that it’s stopped at every stop for example. The same goes for rail journeys. If I’m make a journey in an ideal world it would only stop where I wanted it to stop, but I’m sensible enough to realise what I actually need for that is a taxi!

 

[Goldfish62]

I mean in general, it’s human nature to be selfish. How many times have you been on a bus and got very slightly frustrated that it’s stopped at every stop for example. The same goes for rail journeys. If I’m make a journey in an ideal world it would only stop where I wanted it to stop, but I’m sensible enough to realise what I actually need for that is a taxi!

Fair enough! I don't disagree.

 

[Ianno87]

Good point. Is not thought of that.

How likely are they to reinstate services or is the DfT or Treasury every cautious? One only has to look at how long it took to do certain things on the line. I remember the packed 18:39 5 car train from Waterloo to Poole, running for longer than it should have done with that number of carriages and increasing passenger numbers.

I guess in the 1839's case there just wasn't the stock available to do anything else easily.

If the consultation TT gets implemented then there will, in theory, be the paths available to reinstate things in future. What happens to the spare stock will be interesting, on the other hand.

 

[Goldfish62]

If the consultation TT gets implemented then there will, in theory, be the paths available to reinstate things in future. What happens to the spare stock will be interesting, on the other hand.

In the case of the Reading line the clock is being wound back a couple of decades.

What SWT were very good at was incrementally adding additional trains to the timetable, so what started out as a base 2tph with one extra train in each peak culminated in Dec 2019 as 4tph with just a few hours during the middle of the day and during late evening with 2tph.

Hopefully the same can happen again assuming passenger journeys steadily increase.

 

[baza585]

Whilst no one likes change if they are directly affected, as am I, overall this looks one of the more sensible things to come out of Dft in recent years.

Hopefully more of the silly ORCATS raids of recent years will be quietly dropped.

I still think Pompey-Southampton semi fasts should be high on the agenda, or 2 stoppers per hour would be justified given the awful traffic problems in the area, and the need to decarbonise South Hampshire. But we can't have everything........

 

[Meerkat]

Anyone who understands it work out whether Worplesdon is really going to have zero peak hour trains?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Anyone who understands it work out whether Worplesdon is really going to have zero peak hour trains?

It’s been mentioned a few times the stopping pattern of the peak 4th train an hour on the Portsmouth Direct isn’t listed.

If it was suggested there would be no peak service at Worplesdon they would have listed that!

 

[Meerkat]

It’s been mentioned a few times the stopping pattern of the peak 4th train an hour on the Portsmouth Direct isn’t listed.

If it was suggested there would be no peak service at Worplesdon they would have listed that!

Ok thanks, must have missed that. Bit confusing as the blurb says they will not reinstate 4 of the 6 peak trains….which would only leave 2 not the four in the table or the 3 in the stopping pattern.

 

[thecouncillor]

The idea of a recast isn't unreasonable. You already have to build a timetable with credence to Southern (Epsom - Dorking, Havant - Pompey / Soton), Great Western (various interactions), Cross Country (chiefly between Bomo and Reading), freight and whoever else.

A recast that sets up a "new normal" baseline service pattern is surely needed. E.g. you build a timetable designed to run all day Monday - Saturday, so that whether it's Saturday morning, high-peak or even late evening the same departure time takes place every 30/60 minutes; but build stacks of Q paths into the timetable which can be activated at any time for peak and even improved off-peak services. Examples might be high-peak Woking to Waterloo extras, but also Metro bits.

You couldn't say that would cause reliability issues as the timetable would have firebreaks in it, of say 6 minutes, at key points during the day and even at peak in some cases now.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Ok thanks, must have missed that. Bit confusing as the blurb says they will not reinstate 4 of the 6 peak trains….which would only leave 2 not the four in the table or the 3 in the stopping pattern.

I think the blurb should say only 4 of the 6 are coming back if the table is correct!

It is a bit confusing!!

 

[infobleep]

I guess in the 1839's case there just wasn't the stock available to do anything else easily.

If the consultation TT gets implemented then there will, in theory, be the paths available to reinstate things in future. What happens to the spare stock will be interesting, on the other hand.

It was due to lack of stock but then it took a while to order more stock, that is my point.

How keen will the Treasury or DfT be for changes in the future?

People say having spare stock around costs money for hardly any return. I appreciate that but if they want to scale up a cut-down timetable, later on, that has been kept unchanged so this can easily happen, then there needs to be trains to run those services.

If I put in Haywards Heath to Clapham Junction for 11:00 for next Monday 2 August it returns 4 trains. 2 direct take 37 and 2 where you have to change at East Croydon take 44 minutes.

Compare this to Guildford. You have 5 trains. 4 are direct. 1 takes 30 minutes, 2 take 53 minutes and another 1 hour 01 minutes. There is an indirect service, changing at Woking, taking 47 minutes.

Of those 5 trains, 2 get overtake and another only gets in 8 minutes earlier, despite leaving 31 minutes earlier.

Guildford is closer to Clapham Junction than Haywards Heath and yet only 1 train an hour is faster, even though 2 of the trains from Haywards Heath require a change at East Croydon and only 1 service from Guildford requires a change.

 

[thecouncillor]

It was due to lack of stock but then it took a while to order more stock, that is my point.

How keen will the Treasury or DfT be for changes in the future?

People say having spare stock around costs money for hardly any return. I appreciate that but if they want to scale up a cut-down timetable, later on, that has been kept unchanged so this can easily happen, then there needs to be trains to run those services.

If I put in Haywards Heath to Clapham Junction for 11:00 for next Monday 2 August it returns 4 trains. 2 direct take 37 and 2 where you have to change at East Croydon take 44 minutes.

Compare this to Guildford. You have 5 trains. 4 are direct. 1 takes 30 minutes, 2 take 53 minutes and another 1 hour 01 minutes. There is an indirect service, changing at Woking, taking 47 minutes.

Of those 5 trains, 2 get overtake and another only gets in 8 minutes earlier, despite leaving 31 minutes earlier.

Guildford is closer to Clapham Junction than Haywards Heath and yet only 1 train an hour is faster, even though 2 of the trains from Haywards Heath require a change at East Croydon and only 1 service from Guildford requires a change.

Guildford has been shafted without doubt. It was an excellent service when 4tph Portsmouth / Haslemere and barely any stops.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Guildford has been shafted without doubt. It was an excellent service when 4tph Portsmouth / Haslemere and barely any stops.

But if you look at demand there really doesn’t seem to be demand for 4tph any more, the trains aren’t exactly bursting with people!

 

[thecouncillor]

But if you look at demand there really doesn’t seem to be demand for 4tph any more, the trains aren’t exactly bursting with people!

Perhaps not, but I can’t believe a city of that size doesn’t warrant at least a half-hourly fast.

 

[slicedbread]

It all looks pretty sensible to me. Providing a service that, overall, meets the expected demand (and more), will perform well, and costs the taxpayer less.

Surely more proposals like this will follow in the next couple of years.

It can't only be about providing just enough trains to fit everyone on and just put up with the timings to save the Treasury a few bob.

If they cut a service in half so it's only hourly rather than half hourly it's quite a downgrade, rather than slightly inconvenient

 

[infobleep]

But if you look at demand there really doesn’t seem to be demand for 4tph any more, the trains aren’t exactly bursting with people!

If there is a lack of demand then I appreciate why services need to be cut but I can't imagine there is a lack of demand to Clapham Junction off-peak.

 

[JonathanH]

If there is a lack of demand then I appreciate why services need to be cut but I can't imagine there is a lack of demand to Clapham Junction off-peak.

The ability to offer a full service off peak is rather dependent on the passengers travelling at peak time. Overall revenue is down so off-peak services can't be as comprehensive as they used to be.

 

[Meerkat]

Perhaps not, but I can’t believe a city of that size doesn’t warrant at least a half-hourly fast.

Whatever the locals might think, whatever the football club is called, and ignoring “but it has a university and cathedral” misunderstandings, the Queen hasn’t made Guildford a city so it’s still just another suburban town!

 

[ivorytoast28]

Whatever the locals might think, whatever the football club is called, and ignoring “but it has a university and cathedral” misunderstandings, the Queen hasn’t made Guildford a city so it’s still just another suburban town!

Being officially called a city or not is totally irrelevant to what train service it deserves, a population of over 150k 30 miles from London is. Basingstoke is half the population and further from London but gets a significantly better service already and won't be having any cuts

 

[infobleep]

The ability to offer a full service off-peak is rather dependent on the passengers travelling at peak time. Overall revenue is down so off-peak services can't be as comprehensive as they used to be.

I do appreciate the need to cut services but I'm asking for additional calls to be added to the services that remain to account for the fact services had been cut.

I imagine the revenue is down on other lines such as those run by Govia Thameslink Railway and if so will they be doing a similar exercise elsewhere if they haven't started already?

 

[Ianno87]

.

I imagine the revenue is down on other lines such as those run by Govia Thameslink Railway and if so will they be doing a similar exercise elsewhere if they haven't started already?

GTR have dropped some stuff, like the peak Baldock-Kings Cross services.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Yeah GTR have also dropped the Brighton - Lewes and Brighton - West Worthing services SX apart from a few peak services. The Bedford - Littlehampton/Bedford - East Grinstead peak services have been massively reduced. The peak London Victoria - Caterham/Tattenham Corner services are gone. The 2 Gatwick Express trains per hour are gone although becasue of the Gatwick Station works not covid. The Moorgate - Welwyn Garden City/Steveage have been cut to 2tph off peak SX, and 2tph all day at weekends. The Milton Keynes Central - East Croydon services have mostly been cut back to Clapham Junction SX. The Thameslink 2tph Kentish Town - Orpington have gone on Saturdays, and the peak London Kings Cross - Welwyn Garden City services have gone, and 1tph of the London Kings Cross - Cambridge has been cut back to Royston. Some other peak services have also been cut. Quite a lot of reductions in reality.

The one advantage GTR have over SWR, at least ECML GTR services is the May 2022 ECML timetable change which promises an increase in services and new service patterns. But it wouldn't surprise me if some of these remain permanent, at least for the next 4 years.

 

[infobleep]

Yeah GTR have also dropped the Brighton - Lewes and Brighton - West Worthing services SX apart from a few peak services. The Bedford - Littlehampton/Bedford - East Grinstead peak services have been massively reduced. The peak London Victoria - Caterham/Tattenham Corner services are gone. The 2 Gatwick Express trains per hour are gone although becasue of the Gatwick Station works not covid. The Moorgate - Welwyn Garden City/Steveage have been cut to 2tph off peak SX, and 2tph all day at weekends. The Milton Keynes Central - East Croydon services have mostly been cut back to Clapham Junction SX. The Thameslink 2tph Kentish Town - Orpington have gone on Saturdays, and the peak London Kings Cross - Welwyn Garden City services have gone, and 1tph of the London Kings Cross - Cambridge has been cut back to Royston. Some other peak services have also been cut. Quite a lot of reductions in reality.

The one advantage GTR have over SWR, at least ECML GTR services is the May 2022 ECML timetable change which promises an increase in services and new service patterns. But it wouldn't surprise me if some of these remain permanent, at least for the next 4 years.

I take it they will at some point need to consult on all thoes changes, if they haven't already. As for the ECML, they could scrap it for the time being and not have an increase.

After all, this is about saving money.

I have now raised the point about Clapham Junction calls with one of my local councillors.

I did state I appreciated why they might need to cut services but can they not add calls to other services. I then explained how some of the services get overtaken etc.

i ddidn't mention anything else at this stage.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I take it they will at some point need to consult on all goes changes, if they haven't already. As for the ECML, they could scrap it for the time being and not have an increase.

After all, this is about saving money.

I have now raised the point about Clapham Junction calls with one of my local councillors.

I did state I appreciated why they might need to cut services but can they not add calls I to other services. I then explained how some of the services get overtaken etc.

i ddidn't mention anything else at this stage.

The ECML timetable change will not be scrapped. Its been agreed with the dft and likely the Treasury to go ahead. It will happen, its not being scrapped or altered.

 

[30907]

Perhaps not, but I can’t believe a city of that size doesn’t warrant at least a half-hourly fast.

It has 3tph but only one calls at Clapham Jn, and that is offpeak only for reasons of line capacity in the peak.

Guildford is closer to Clapham Junction than Haywards Heath and yet only 1 train an hour is faster, even though 2 of the trains from Haywards Heath require a change at East Croydon and only 1 service from Guildford requires a change.

It just so happens that Haywards Heath is (like Woking) on a main line with multiple destinations - and a main line that has capacity for nearly all trains
to stop at CLJ (unlike Woking).

If there is a lack of demand then I appreciate why services need to be cut but I can't imagine there is a lack of demand to Clapham Junction off-peak.

2 trains 15min apart and a 45min gap, or do you want all 3 to stop?

Either way, this would delay other trains in both directions, and I can understand SW waiting until there is time to do a proper recast (by which time who knows what demand will be?)

 

[Meerkat]

Being officially called a city or not is totally irrelevant to what train service it deserves, a population of over 150k 30 miles from London is. Basingstoke is half the population and further from London but gets a significantly better service already and won't be having any cuts

Guildford doesn’t have 150k! It’s notably smaller than Basingstoke and not on two main lines like Basingstoke.
As someone else said I don’t know why they can’t use the bay at Woking to add services down the Portsmouth line (and I’m surprised they haven’t replaced more Guildford trains with connections into shuttles from Woking in the off peak).

 

[FenMan]

Guildford doesn’t have 150k! It’s notably smaller than Basingstoke and not on two main lines like Basingstoke.
As someone else said I don’t know why they can’t use the bay at Woking to add services down the Portsmouth line (and I’m surprised they haven’t replaced more Guildford trains with connections into shuttles from Woking in the off peak).

Guildford's population is irrelevant. In terms of passenger numbers it's busier than Basingstoke station and is a well-used interchange.

Passenger numbers pre-COVID (2018/19):-
Guildford: 7.494 million + 0.992 million interchange = 8.486 million
Basingstoke: 5.979 million + 1.875 million interchange = 7.854 million

 

[infobleep]

It has 3tph but only one calls at Clapham Jn, and that is offpeak only for reasons of line capacity in the peak.

It just so happens that Haywards Heath is (like Woking) on a main line with multiple destinations - and a main line that has capacity for nearly all trains
to stop at CLJ (unlike Woking).

2 trains 15min apart and a 45min gap, or do you want all 3 to stop?

Either way, this would delay other trains in both directions, and I can understand SW waiting until there is time to do a proper recast (by which time who knows what demand will be?)

Well two 15 minutes apart is better than nothing.

After all Farncombe is going to be getting two trains 15 minutes apart.

Guildford doesn’t have 150k! It’s notably smaller than Basingstoke and not on two main lines like Basingstoke.
As someone else said I don’t know why they can’t use the bay at Woking to add services down the Portsmouth line (and I’m surprised they haven’t replaced more Guildford trains with connections into shuttles from Woking in the off peak).

You have given me an idea, which may be what you were thinking already. Why don't they run a shuttle service from Guildford to Woking to connect with a train to Clapham Junction? This wouldn't help people south of Guildford of course.

The issue at the moment isn't solely that there aren't two fast trains to Clapham Junction, it's also that none of the fast trains to skip Clapham Junction connect onto anything from Wolong that does atop at Clapham Junction unless you wait 21 minutes at Woking.

Not everyone wants to go into Waterloo.

Would it be possible to move one of the fast Portsmouth Habour trains so that it departed Guildford at x04, as that is the only time slot a fast train from Guildford can stop at Clapham Junction, in addition to x35?

So instead of x19, x35 and x49, you'd have x04, x19, x35 or x04, x35, x49

I can't see a massive return of people working in the office. Even if people go in part-time then I can't see the same level trains being needed. Obviously, this can't be known for sure.

If that is the case, how long should they give it before they do a recast? 2 years, 5 years, 10 years and in the meantime do people just put up with 1 train an hour and bi decent connection off any other train at Woking.

It took long enough to get the disused platforms at Waterloo station back into use. There was a time, in my opinion when Wimbledon station could have done with another footbridge. I don't know if that is the case now but either way, given Crossrail 2 might have been happening, nothing was done, as that might solve the issue.

So will it be the case that nothing will be done for Guildford services for quite some years as they are always waiting for something in the future?