SWR December 2022 Timetable Consultation

[Nicholas Lewis]

The thing is in a labour-industry such as the railways staff costs are serious amounts of money.

Natural wastage isn't the only alternative to compulsory redundancy. There's also voluntary redundancy. I know a couple of people who are crossing their fingers this might happen to them.

Historically the industry has delivered big headcount reductions through voluntary severance but that has progressively pushed down the average age of the workforce and gone are the BR days where you also go a pension top up to leave. Also the amount of people who have protected rights is very diminished now so if terms aren't good enough that will dissuade people. That said im sure your right that there will a good uptake which will alleviate too many forced redundancies.

 

[DelW]

Don’t forget there has been far more house buildings since the 1980s, especially with the development on the former Milford Hospital site. That’s means the smaller stations aren’t the sleepy halts they used to be, relegating places like Milford to an extension of the Woking stopper wouldn’t exactly be popular. What worked in the 1980s isn’t necessarily appropriate 40 years later.

Just a minor point, but Milford Hospital is still extant and operational. The new housing estate was built in its grounds, but left the main buildings intact.

The nearby Hydestile hospitals were closed and demolished, and the sites cleared and/or redeveloped.

 

[evergreenadam]

The reduction in off-peak train frequency from every fifteen mins to every half an hour at Mortlake, North Sheen, St Margaret’s, Worcester Park, Stoneleigh and Ewell West is particularly disappointing.

One would have thought that it would be commercially viable to operate a service every fifteen minutes from Leatherhead/Epsom to Waterloo.

The truncation of the Hounslow loop line to a Waterloo-Hounslow-Twickenham service is not a surprise given the low loadings between Hounslow and Richmond.

The Waterloo-Richmond-Kingston service should be increased to every fifteen minutes to compensate, though the bay at Kingston is too short for ten car trains, so it’s probably not that easy. Bus route 65 has recently been increased to every 5mins in the peaks to deal with demand between Richmond and Kingston, it’s such a shame that the railway infrastructure cannot be better utilised to deal with local transport needs.

 

[Goldfish62]

The reduction in off-peak train frequency from every fifteen half an hour to every half an hour at Mortlake, North Sheen, St Margaret’s, Worcester Park, Stoneleigh and Ewell West is particularly disappointing.

One would have thought that it would be commercially viable to operate a service every fifteen minutes from Epsom to Waterloo.

The truncation of the Hounslow loop line to a Waterloo-Hounslow-Twickenham service is not a surprise given the low loadings between Hounslow and Richmond.

The Waterloo-Richmond-Kingston service should be increased to every fifteen minutes to compensate, though the bay at Kingston is too short for ten car trains, so it’s probably not that easy. Bus route 65 has recently been increased to every 5mins in the peaks to deal with demand between Richmond and Kingston, it’s such a shame that the railway infrastructure cannot be better utilised to deal with local transport needs.

I hadn't picked up that stations in the Richmond area would be reduced to 2tph in the off-peak. That of course is a product of the Hounslow loop being curtailed at Twickenham.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The reduction in off-peak train frequency from every fifteen mins to every half an hour at Mortlake, North Sheen, St Margaret’s, Worcester Park, Stoneleigh and Ewell West is particularly disappointing.

One would have thought that it would be commercially viable to operate a service every fifteen minutes from Leatherhead/Epsom to Waterloo.

The truncation of the Hounslow loop line to a Waterloo-Hounslow-Twickenham service is not a surprise given the low loadings between Hounslow and Richmond.

The Waterloo-Richmond-Kingston service should be increased to every fifteen minutes to compensate, though the bay at Kingston is too short for ten car trains, so it’s probably not that easy. Bus route 65 has recently been increased to every 5mins in the peaks to deal with demand between Richmond and Kingston, it’s such a shame that the railway infrastructure cannot be better utilised to deal with local transport needs.

Many services have low loadings over part of their journeys to ensure service levels are satisfactory where needed to both retain and grow passenger usage. This does nothing to effect modal shift although the operator will say plenty of local bus alternatives but there diesel guzzling.

 

[Goldfish62]

This does nothing to effect modal shift although the operator will say plenty of local bus alternatives but there diesel guzzling.

A fair routes in the Richmond and Kingston areas will be electric by next year.

 

[Adsy125]

Anybody know why SWR's desire to cut the Poole-London stopper back to Bournemouth has been? In their consultation for the abandoned 2020 timetable uplift they proposed it, it happened in the final proposal there too. Additionally during (some) strike and the harshest COVID timetable it has always been split at Bournemouth. The lack of a decent metro style service across BCP is unfortunate, an area with 500,000 people in it seems to be served fairly poorly. This consultation timetable will mean services to Poole are (effectively) cut to 2tph with only a single service to Pokesdown and Christchurch. The xx50 services from Poole always seemed well used, with a surprising amount of churn at Branksome especially.

Additionally to get rid of the headline frequency cut they split the semi-fast Weymouth at Bournemouth, running on to Poole with additional BSM and PKS calls. This is much appreciated of course for passengers at these stations, but why not just stop the semi-fast there? It would give them direct services to the stations skipped by the fast, and only has a small impact on the already slower service. I wouldn't be surprised if these were cancelled due to low usage, giving BSM and PKS just 1tph.


On a different if similar note, is the current timetable fixed in until Dec 2022 now? It would be strange to cut the Weymouth service for that long and lose another summer with only 1tph to Weymouth when it would be very easy to reinstate to 2tph - Weymouth locals are understandably complaining about it, and many trains are busy.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Additionally to get rid of the headline frequency cut they split the semi-fast Weymouth at Bournemouth, running on to Poole with additional BSM and PKS calls. This is much appreciated of course for passengers at these stations, but why not just stop the semi-fast there?

The turnaround at Weymouth for the semi-fast is only 20 minutes, starting arriving later having called at Branksome and Parkstone and leave earlier to hit the booked path at Bournemouth you’re into a sub 15 minute turnaround which isn’t robust for a journey of that length.

 

[Horizon22]

Hopefully GWR will extend a later train beyond Westbury to Warminster/Salisbury to replace the SWR 2223 Bristol Temple Meads to Salisbury on a Saturday night, as that one normally is popular for passengers returning home after a good night out in Bristol or Bath.

Ie extending the 2209 Bristol Temple Meads - Westbury service to Salisbury. Otherwise the last service from Bristol to Warminster & beyond will be the 21:23-ish from Bristol [20:30 from Cardiff] which the times I've used it is only a 3 coach unit and does get busy, especially on days where events are happening./

Yes they are providing the late night connection as a replacement for SWR. A Cardiff service is being extended to Frome.

 

[Kite159]

Yes they are providing the late night connection as a replacement for SWR. A Cardiff service is being extended to Frome.

Which doesn't help passengers for Warminster or Salisbury whose last train will be the 21:21 Portsmouth service (20;30odd from Cardiff) instead of the 22:22 SWR Salisbury. Westbury already has a connection to the last train from Cardiff

Unless they strengthen the Portsmouth train so it's 5 coaches instead of the usual 3.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Which doesn't help passengers for Warminster or Salisbury whose last train will be the 21:21 Portsmouth service (20;30odd from Cardiff) instead of the 22:22 SWR Salisbury. Westbury already has a connection to the last train from Cardiff

Unless they strengthen the Portsmouth train so it's 5 coaches instead of the usual 3.

SWR will be providing a connection starting from Westbury just after 23.00 back to Salisbury.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

It amuses me that SWR cite their main reason for pulling their direct Waterloo to Bristol services as being "unnecessary duplication with GWR of direct London to Bristol services".

They conveniently forget that they run a far more frequent direct service between London and Exeter but presumably that's not also seen as unnecessary duplication.

It does make me wonder just how many other services could be removed from the timetable on these grounds. Not just on SWR territory, but across the country...

 

[XAM2175]

It does make me wonder just how many other services could be removed from the timetable on these grounds. Not just on SWR territory, but across the country...

Well, a lot of it used to be called "competition"

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It does make me wonder just how many other services could be removed from the timetable on these grounds. Not just on SWR territory, but across the country...

Don’t forget that is one of the stated aims of GBR to remove duplicate services to make efficiencies.

GBR is very much about saving money.

 

[Meerkat]

Don’t forget that is one of the stated aims of GBR to remove duplicate services to make efficiencies.

GBR is very much about saving money.

“Saving” money by creating monopolies that can rinse passengers better.

 

[pompeyfan]

I thought they said the duplication was the Salisbury - Bristol corridor rather that London - Bristol

 

[Goldfish62]

“Saving” money by creating monopolies that can rinse passengers better.

The only monopoly will be GBR, or is that your point?

 

[Ianno87]

It amuses me that SWR cite their main reason for pulling their direct Waterloo to Bristol services as being "unnecessary duplication with GWR of direct London to Bristol services".

They conveniently forget that they run a far more frequent direct service between London and Exeter but presumably that's not also seen as unnecessary duplication.

It does make me wonder just how many other services could be removed from the timetable on these grounds. Not just on SWR territory, but across the country...

Presumably, because that would leave Axminster, Honiton et Al in something of a pickle.

 

[jfollows]

It amuses me that SWR cite their main reason for pulling their direct Waterloo to Bristol services as being "unnecessary duplication with GWR of direct London to Bristol services".

They conveniently forget that they run a far more frequent direct service between London and Exeter but presumably that's not also seen as unnecessary duplication.

It does make me wonder just how many other services could be removed from the timetable on these grounds. Not just on SWR territory, but across the country...

It also sounds like typical London-centric thinking by SWR.
I once lived in Bath (1994-95) when the Bristol-Waterloo service was first introduced and it was very convenient for me to make trips from Bath to Basingstoke. I would never have used the services to get to Waterloo, however I could imagine people for whom comfort and speed were less important than price might think about it.

 

[Meerkat]

The only monopoly will be GBR, or is that your point?

Exactly - the DfT want to get rid of the competition so they can keep the prices high.

 

[Ianno87]

It also sounds like typical London-centric thinking by SWR.
I once lived in Bath (1994-95) when the Bristol-Waterloo service was first introduced and it was very convenient for me to make trips from Bath to Basingstoke. I would never have used the services to get to Waterloo, however I could imagine people for whom comfort and speed were less important than price might think about it.

For journeys like Bath-Basingstoke, how many people actually find the couple of direct trains a day convenient, compared to the change at Salisbury available every single hour?

 

[jfollows]

For journeys like Bath-Basingstoke, how many people actually find the couple of direct trains a day convenient, compared to the change at Salisbury available every single hour?

Oh, for sure, I agree with you, but there is a non-small minority of passengers terrified of changing trains, and even for me it was a nice journey length that I only wanted to find a seat and settle down once rather than twice. It helped that when I used it there were no stops between Trowbridge and Basingstoke, but that's off-topic for this thread!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Oh, for sure, I agree with you, but there is a non-small minority of passengers terrified of changing trains, and even for me it was a nice journey length that I only wanted to find a seat and settle down once rather than twice. It helped that when I used it there were no stops between Trowbridge and Basingstoke, but that's off-topic for this thread!

What we have lacked in the UK for decades is a properly constructed timetable with a reliable connection policy that exists in many parts of Europe. Also stations that make changing trains easy and un-stressful. I get running point to point services is a far better outcome for peoples journeys but in too many cases its overlaid additional complications in running the services and has a really been an ORCATs raid for the operator.

My view is no major timetable recast should be undertaken until its clear what the govt wants GBR to achieve.

 

[Grecian 1998]

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It amuses me that SWR cite their main reason for pulling their direct Waterloo to Bristol services as being "unnecessary duplication with GWR of direct London to Bristol services".

They conveniently forget that they run a far more frequent direct service between London and Exeter but presumably that's not also seen as unnecessary duplication.

It does make me wonder just how many other services could be removed from the timetable on these grounds. Not just on SWR territory, but across the country...

A rather important difference is that every station served by SWR Waterloo - Bristol trains has more frequent GWR services, whereas every station between Pinhoe and Tisbury is only served by Waterloo trains.

 

[jfollows]

What we have lacked in the UK for decades is a properly constructed timetable with a reliable connection policy that exists in many parts of Europe. Also stations that make changing trains easy and un-stressful. I get running point to point services is a far better outcome for peoples journeys but in too many cases its overlaid additional complications in running the services and has a really been an ORCATs raid for the operator.

My view is no major timetable recast should be undertaken until its clear what the govt wants GBR to achieve.

I think you're absolutely right, it's not the right place to discuss it in this thread I don't think, but the unreliable connection policy or the way in which connections are not held must put off a lot of "timid" passengers.

I once went to Carlisle to catch the stopping train back to Preston via Barrow, but it was sent on its way as my train from the south was arriving. So I've never been on the line via Whitehaven, and it pissed me off greatly. But it's the way our trains have been run for a number of years now. Maybe GBR could refocus the priorities here?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I think you're absolutely right, it's not the right place to discuss it in this thread I don't think, but the unreliable connection policy or the way in which connections are not held must put off a lot of "timid" passengers.

I once went to Carlisle to catch the stopping train back to Preston via Barrow, but it was sent on its way as my train from the south was arriving. So I've never been on the line via Whitehaven, and it pissed me off greatly. But it's the way our trains have been run for a number of years now. Maybe GBR could refocus the priorities here?

Indeed GBR need to set out a basic set of principles and a connection policy needs to be one of them.

 

[Gathursty]

If GBR are aiming to cut down on duplication of routes then in the example of London to Exeter, what will the government prioritise as the main route and will the secondary route be classed as a slow to Pinhoe/Tiverton Parkway as a nod to Foxton before Cambridge?


I think if that's how the government are going to behave then I better enjoy routes around Wigan before they cut most of them as they can be seen as duplicates of various routes.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If GBR are aiming to cut down on duplication of routes then in the example of London to Exeter, what will the government prioritise as the main route and will the secondary route be classed as a slow to Pinhoe/Tiverton Parkway as a nod to Foxton before Cambridge?


I think if that's how the government are going to behave then I better enjoy routes around Wigan before they cut most of them as they can be seen as duplicates of various routes.

Govt doesn't do that sort of detail that will be down to GBR to decide how to optimise the network. What GBR need though is a steer from govt is it to be lowest cost or setup to support modal change from roads and that may not become clear to until we get the spending review later this Autumn.

 

[jayah]

I hadn't picked up that stations in the Richmond area would be reduced to 2tph in the off-peak. That of course is a product of the Hounslow loop being curtailed at Twickenham.

In my experience weekend loadings were buoyant and usage at those stations healthy.

Pre pandemic footfall at those stations is down as c. 4 million a year and that off peak leisure demand is the future.

30min interval is pretty rubbish for outer London.

- 4tph to Reading permanently axed, it will be 2tph all day but will call additionally at Vauxhall all day

This should have been a big opportunity. Bracknell to London is over an hour for just 30 miles with 12-13 stops. There are some huge markets crying out for a semi-fast stopping pattern.

Does Longcross (22k pre COVID footfall) cling onto 2tph - thanks to changes elsewhere this would be the same frequency as Mortlake with 2 million?

 

[AverageTD]

Does Longcross (22k pre COVID footfall) cling onto 2tph - thanks to changes elsewhere this would be the same frequency as Mortlake with 2 million?

From what I can tell from the document, yes. Although this would be one for trivia, I wonder if this timetable change makes Mortlake the highest demand station in London to receive 2tph or less?