SWR timetable change - late trains removed and I can't get home

[Fiyero]

The opinion of the Twitter team is pretty much worthless; they are not experts in contract or consumer laws or the National Rail Conditions of Travel. The experts can be found here.

Absolutely correct - but with SWR in past I have found even the full customer services department very difficult on things like timetable changes on advance tickets, although generally helpful on other matters

Indeed, When I phoned I could tell the guy sympathised but had no wiggle room whatsover (except possibly letting me go to Parkway and walk back!).
It is the Tuesday that is tricky. I have made plans knowing trains exist, I didn't book right away but I do have a booked ticket on a train that they choose to unexist

 

[extendedpaul]

Theatres are very good these days exchanging tickets for any reason, though getting through by phone can be challenging.

Could you exchange your Tuesday and Friday theatre tickets for Saturday performances, matinee + evening ?

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m a bit confused as to when the OP is travelling. Which dates are in play here?

 

[Fiyero]

Theatres are very good these days exchanging tickets for any reason, though getting through by phone can be challenging.

Could you exchange your Tuesday and Friday theatre tickets for Saturday performances, matinee + evening ?

Thank you, I have changed what I can. The one left is a new cast’s first night. I can’t move that.

I’m a bit confused as to when the OP is travelling. Which dates are in play here?

I have sorted the Fridays by staying over and rebooking trains (at my own expense). The problematic date is Tuesday 1st Feb.

 

[Wolfie]

Hi, Bottom price advance so £17.40 for the return pair. I think a flexible off-peak return is around £45 so £30 using my railcard, still a chunk more!
UPDATE added 19/01
So, I've tweeted and got nowhere. I bit the bullet and phoned and they are really playing hardball. The new timetable means, and I am voicing this as Gene Wilder does to young Charlie in the Chocolate Factory, "You get nothing".

• I can get a refund and buy myself a new ticket. That has been allowed for a while due to covid anyway. Or I can amend but there may be an admin charge.
• He will check if I can go to Parkway on the earlier 22:35 train and double back (though no service to double back on). I am fairly sure nobody will challenge me on that but it will be a very tight connection on the Tuesday anyway. UPDATE: he called back and if I surrender my original ticket so they can cancel the barcode they will send me a voucher so I can travel on that one.
• I have no rights under NRCOC it seems as they can amend the timetable as they see fit.

Frankly they need to be ripped a new AH in Court. Teach them a bloody hard lesson.

Here's a hint - never take legal advice from your "opponent"!

You have a contract in place. It solely entitles you to travel on the booked itinerary.

So for them to suggest they can fundamentally alter the contract - viz. departure time - without so much as informing you, let alone obtaining your agreement, defies all logic. It is simply not how contracts work.

It would be like if you agreed to pay a plumber £100 to service your boiler, they did the service, and later demanded £200. It's just nonsensical.

Spot on.

Absolutely correct - but with SWR in past I have found even the full customer services department very difficult on things like timetable changes on advance tickets, although generally helpful on other matters

Give them a chance and then litigate.

 

[jossadb]

I'm having a similar issue: I'm booked on the 19:25 from Exeter St Davids to Waterloo for next Friday, but this service now terminates as Salisbury with no onwards trains until the next morning.
I went to EXD and asked one of the staff members there (who works for GWR) to check whether I could take a GWR service instead, and he said that he had some other pax with a similar issue. He called the SWR office, and they refused to allow them to take the GWR service. He said I could take an earlier SWR service, but naturally that's not a valid alternative: I could well have existing commitments that don't allow me to travel before that service leaves.

Tomorrow I shall call SWR, to ask them what alternative they suggest. As far as I'm concerned, under both the NRCOC, and the Rail Passenger Rights Regulation (EU law that has now been transcribed into UK domestic legislation) they have a legal obligation to provide some form of alternative transport.

Should they fail to suggest anything else, as I expect will happen, I have no problems buying a full-fare GWR ticket and taking them to the County Court to get it reimbursed.

Here's a hint - never take legal advice from your "opponent"!

You have a contract in place. It solely entitles you to travel on the booked itinerary.

So for them to suggest they can fundamentally alter the contract - viz. departure time - without so much as informing you, let alone obtaining your agreement, defies all logic. It is simply not how contracts work.

It would be like if you agreed to pay a plumber £100 to service your boiler, they did the service, and later demanded £200. It's just nonsensical.

Any term that allowed them to do so would almost certainly go against legislation on Unfair Contractual Terms - Schedule 2, paragraph 1 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, states that terms may be unfair if they have the object or effect of: "(k) enabling the seller or supplier to alter unilaterally without a valid reason any characteristics of the product or service to be provided."

 

[Watershed]

I'm having a similar issue: I'm booked on the 19:25 from Exeter St Davids to Waterloo for next Friday, but this service now terminates as Salisbury with no onwards trains until the next morning.
I went to EXD and asked one of the staff members there (who works for GWR) to check whether I could take a GWR service instead, and he said that he had some other pax with a similar issue. He called the SWR office, and they refused to allow them to take the GWR service. He said I could take an earlier SWR service, but naturally that's not a valid alternative: I could well have existing commitments that don't allow me to travel before that service leaves.

Tomorrow I shall call SWR, to ask them what alternative they suggest. As far as I'm concerned, under both the NRCOC, and the Rail Passenger Rights Regulation (EU law that has now been transcribed into UK domestic legislation) they have a legal obligation to provide some form of alternative transport.

Should they fail to suggest anything else, as I expect will happen, I have no problems buying a full-fare GWR ticket and taking them to the County Court to get it reimbursed.

Unfortunately they may try and argue that you "should" have taken the 19:25 as far as Salisbury and asked for assistance there. Of course, we all know perfectly well that that's probably wishful thinking (and a taxi from Salisbury to Exeter sounds pretty grim even if it were provided).

 

[jossadb]

Unfortunately they may try and argue that you "should" have taken the 19:25 as far as Salisbury and asked for assistance there. Of course, we all know perfectly well that that's probably wishful thinking (and a taxi from Salisbury to Exeter sounds pretty grim even if it were provided).

How much can a taxi from Salisbury to Exeter or London cost? Can't be less than £300 or so I should think - even if they made 3 people split it it's going to cost them far more than the GWR service would - if they try to argue that then they're truly crazy.

 

[miklcct]

I'm having a similar issue: I'm booked on the 19:25 from Exeter St Davids to Waterloo for next Friday, but this service now terminates as Salisbury with no onwards trains until the next morning.
I went to EXD and asked one of the staff members there (who works for GWR) to check whether I could take a GWR service instead, and he said that he had some other pax with a similar issue. He called the SWR office, and they refused to allow them to take the GWR service. He said I could take an earlier SWR service, but naturally that's not a valid alternative: I could well have existing commitments that don't allow me to travel before that service leaves.

Tomorrow I shall call SWR, to ask them what alternative they suggest. As far as I'm concerned, under both the NRCOC, and the Rail Passenger Rights Regulation (EU law that has now been transcribed into UK domestic legislation) they have a legal obligation to provide some form of alternative transport.

Should they fail to suggest anything else, as I expect will happen, I have no problems buying a full-fare GWR ticket and taking them to the County Court to get it reimbursed.


Any term that allowed them to do so would almost certainly go against legislation on Unfair Contractual Terms - Schedule 2, paragraph 1 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, states that terms may be unfair if they have the object or effect of: "(k) enabling the seller or supplier to alter unilaterally without a valid reason any characteristics of the product or service to be provided."

Can you tell me more about the itinerary? From the timetable loaded into the system by now, there is no 19:25 train next Friday but a 19:05 train to Salisbury which can connect to a Waterloo train.

The alternative is to take the 19:55 GWR train to Westbury, then change to Salisbury for the same SWR train.

 

[30907]

How much can a taxi from Salisbury to Exeter or London cost? Can't be less than £300 or so I should think - even if they made 3 people split it it's going to cost them more than the GWR service would.

Purely for info - RTT now shows a 2142 SAL-WAT arr 2313, which miht be their answer.

 

[paul1609]

Don't often use Southwestern but for taxi purposes Salisbury to Southampton Airport is only about 24 miles.

 

[jossadb]

Purely for info - RTT now shows a 2142 SAL-WAT arr 2313, which miht be their answer.

Interesting - thank you! That seems likely.

Edit: Have just checked on the SWR timetables and RTT - it seems they've completely cancelled the 1925 departure from EXD, and the 2142 from SAL is scheduled to pick up the pax from the 1835 dep. So no solution for people who couldn't make an earlier train than the 1925...

 

[Fiyero]

Unfortunately they may try and argue that you "should" have taken the 19:25 as far as Salisbury and asked for assistance there. Of course, we all know perfectly well that that's probably wishful thinking (and a taxi from Salisbury to Exeter sounds pretty grim even if it were provided).

I’d imagine their advice will be similar to what I received. Slightly paraphrasing: “that sucks for you, not our problem”

 

[Merseysider]

As a northerner not subject to SWR’s BS it’s incomprehensible to see so many last trains cancelled.

It wouldn’t wash in any other industry.

BT wouldn’t take your money then cut off your broadband for the last 5 days of the month.

Argos wouldn’t give you a warranty on a washing machine and then terminate it unilaterally a year before the expiry.

A gym wouldn’t sell you a day pass then kick you out at 2pm.

And a cinema wouldn’t sell you a ticket for the 7pm film then decide later on that day to not bother with that showing.

Schools (my industry) certainly wouldn’t get away with inviting pupils to a club at 4pm and then having the pupils turn up to locked gates & no club.

If Northern tried cancelling the last train from Manchester to Liverpool at such short notice, with several dozen possibly boozed up scousers booked on it, the staff would have to run for their lives

Yes, “the railway” is rather a broad term, but what is it that makes it think it can act however it wants, unilaterally, and shaft its customers in the process?

 

[infobleep]

As a northerner not subject to SWR’s BS it’s incomprehensible to see so many last trains cancelled.

It wouldn’t wash in any other industry.

BT wouldn’t take your money then cut off your broadband for the last 5 days of the month.

Argos wouldn’t give you a warranty on a washing machine and then terminate it unilaterally a year before the expiry.

A gym wouldn’t sell you a day pass then kick you out at 2pm.

And a cinema wouldn’t sell you a ticket for the 7pm film then decide later on that day to not bother with that showing.

Schools (my industry) certainly wouldn’t get away with inviting pupils to a club at 4pm and then having the pupils turn up to locked gates & no club.

If Northern tried cancelling the last train from Manchester to Liverpool at such short notice, with several dozen possibly boozed up scousers booked on it, the staff would have to run for their lives

Yes, “the railway” is rather a broad term, but what is it that makes it think it can act however it wants, unilaterally, and shaft its customers in the process?

Surely a better analogy would be an airline wouldn't cancel all flights to your destination after you have booked your ticket?

To which the answer would be, yes they would as Easyjet did just that to me last year. One flight was cancelled but I could book an alternative. Another airport though had no flights at all until 2-3 weeks later, so I had to book again with a different airline completely.

 

[Merseysider]

Easyjet did just that to me last year

I would hope EU261 was availed of!

 

[extendedpaul]

I'm guessing the show on Tuesday 1st February is Wicked at the Apollo Victoria and the first performance by the new cast including Lucie Jones

According to both National Rail Enquiries and Southwestern Railways website there's a 22.44 departure from Victoria arriving Eastleigh 00.22 and a 23.14 arriving 00.59, both involving a change at Clapham Junction.

Is it the case that neither of these services is actually running and both information sources are incorrect ?

 

[jossadb]

Surely a better analogy would be an airline wouldn't cancel all flights to your destination after you have booked your ticket?

To which the answer would be, yes they would as Easyjet did just that to me last year. One flight was cancelled but I could book an alternative. Another airport though had no flights at all until 2-3 weeks later, so I had to book again with a different airline completely.

If that happens to you you can legally ask for the airline to book you on another company or refund the new ticket. I successfully did this with Ryanair in 2020.

EU 261/04, Art. 8:

1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:
[...]
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

The same should go for train companies - Regulation EC 1371/2007:

Where it is reasonably to be expected that the delay in the arrival at the final destination under the transport contract will be more than 60 minutes, the passenger shall immediately have the choice between:
(b)continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

 

[davews]

Oh, and as an aside, the trains on the Reading/Waterloo line yesterday were positively heaving. I can't see them keeping these reduced timetable for much longer, people want to use the trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A gym wouldn’t sell you a day pass then kick you out at 2pm.

And a cinema wouldn’t sell you a ticket for the 7pm film then decide later on that day to not bother with that showing.

In the context of a global pandemic with a severe staff shortage, of course they could. If the product no longer suited your purposes as a result, you would get a refund, just as the OP is entitled to.

The difficulty here is the involvement of consequential loss.

Crikey, airlines do it even when there isn't a pandemic on. Combining and changing flight times after booking is very common practice even for no more reason than that a flight was selling poorly. But the railway has done this due to a staffing crisis, not for pure profit.

Oh, and as an aside, the trains on the Reading/Waterloo line yesterday were positively heaving. I can't see them keeping these reduced timetable for much longer, people want to use the trains.

In the end it is better to have a reduced service operated punctually and reliably than a full service with random cancellations all over the shop.

 

[infobleep]

I would hope EU261 was availed of!

I'm not certain what that is. I changed my first booking at no extra cost and I cancelled the second one and booked via another airline myself.

If that happens to you you can legally ask for the airline to book you on another company or refund the new ticket. I successfully did this with Ryanair in 2020.

EU 261/04, Art. 8:


The same should go for train companies - Regulation EC 1371/2007:

I didn't realise this and could have saved myself £4. The person on the phone certainly didn't offer it. Still £4 isn't a great additional expense.

Oh, and as an aside, the trains on the Reading/Waterloo line yesterday were positively heaving. I can't see them keeping these reduced timetable for much longer, people want to use the trains.

A perfect way to help spread Omicron some more, especially as the wearing of masks will soon be optional. I sont want to get into a discussion on that. Just a reason why they need to run more trains.

 

[Wolfie]

I’d imagine their advice will be similar to what I received. Slightly paraphrasing: “that sucks for you, not our problem”

Take them to Court and it rapidly becomes their problem.

 

[jossadb]

Having spoken to SWR on the phone earlier today, they advised me that as they are operating a new timetable it is "not a delay or cancellation"... When I advised them of their obligation to find alternative transport if the delay should be greater than 60 minutes they replied that they are not aware of such an obligation...

I've sent an email to them quoting the appropriate sources and asking for their approval to travel on one of the GWR services.

 

[30907]

Interesting - thank you! That seems likely.

Edit: Have just checked on the SWR timetables and RTT - it seems they've completely cancelled the 1925 departure from EXD, and the 2142 from SAL is scheduled to pick up the pax from the 1835 dep. So no solution for people who couldn't make an earlier train than the 1925...

As miklcct in post #39 states, the train in the emergency timetable leaves at 1905 (not 1835). A poor connection at Salisbury to boot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having spoken to SWR on the phone earlier today, they advised me that as they are operating a new timetable it is "not a delay or cancellation"... When I advised them of their obligation to find alternative transport if the delay should be greater than 60 minutes they replied that they are not aware of such an obligation...

There isn't such an obligation. There is however an obligation "if they can" (or somesuch) to assist in an overnight stranding.

There is also consumer/contract law with regard to the contract made by the sale of the Advance fare. If they weren't sure what was going to operate, they shouldn't have been putting Advances up until they were sure of what would be operated.

 

[Watershed]

There isn't such an obligation. There is however an obligation "if they can" (or somesuch) to assist in an overnight stranding.

There is also consumer/contract law with regard to the contract made by the sale of the Advance fare. If they weren't sure what was going to operate, they shouldn't have been putting Advances up until they were sure of what would be operated.

That's not correct - EU Regulation 1371/2007 on Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations has been retained in UK law and started applying to domestic journeys in December 2019.

Article 16 of the Regulation provides that, when a delay of more than 60 minutes is anticipated, the passenger can opt for "re-routing ... to the final destination at the earliest opportunity". Because of the fact that if OP took the curtailed service to Salisbury, they would face a delay of more than 60 minutes, SWR are obliged to arrange ticket acceptance for OP on GWR.

 

[Class800]

SWR seem almost impossible to deal with on their timetable changes... even on advance tickets, they blankly refuse to take responsibility

 

[3rd rail land]

SWR seem almost impossible to deal with on their timetable changes... even on advance tickets, they blankly refuse to take responsibility

What's the solution to make SWR comply with the law? A class action lawsuit?

 

[Class800]

What's the solution to make SWR comply with the law? A class action lawsuit?

I don't know - I would suggest we would need input from our leading experts to understanding the situation. SWR claim that a temporary timetable renders the previous arrangements null and void in effect - although allow you to use the ticket on a similar time. I am not able to offer more clarity on it really

 

[Starmill]

There isn't such an obligation. There is however an obligation "if they can" (or somesuch) to assist in an overnight stranding.

There is also consumer/contract law with regard to the contract made by the sale of the Advance fare. If they weren't sure what was going to operate, they shouldn't have been putting Advances up until they were sure of what would be operated.

You may be thinking of 28.2:

28.2. Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your
Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably
can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if
necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

Given that we can be fairly sure that the alternative means "reasonably can" be provided, to state in advance that they won't provide them is very obviously unlawful.

No general exception for changing the timetable is provided. As far as the NRCoT itself is concerned, the only relevant timetable is the one that applied at the time that the ticket was paid for.

Under the Advance ticket terms and conditions you can also travel on the next train should you wish without needing to ask. Even if that's the next day.