• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Taking bicycle on peak time Scotrail service

Status
Not open for further replies.

Stan63

Member
Joined
20 Apr 2014
Messages
59
Location
Paisley
A work colleage was on a busy Scotrail service to Motherwell last week. There were no spare seats so he was sitting in the fold up ones reserved for bicycles along with another couple of people when someone came on the train and demanded they move so he could put his bike there. The cyclist was very loud and confrontational so after a few arguments everyone moved out of his way.
My question is what are the rules regarding cycles on busy Scotrail peak services? Is it really okay to move 3 people out of seats to accommodate a bicycle on a busy train?

Stan
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

tspaul26

Established Member
Joined
9 Jun 2016
Messages
1,588
My question is what are the rules regarding cycles on busy Scotrail peak services?
Apart from certain services where cycle reservations are available (this does not apply to any ScotRail service to Motherwell), it is first come first served.
Is it really okay to move 3 people out of seats to accommodate a bicycle on a busy train?
Yes, there is a dedicated cycle area for various reasons. The displaced passengers can go elsewhere.
 

Facing Back

Member
Joined
21 May 2019
Messages
909
Yes, there is a dedicated cycle area for various reasons. The displaced passengers can go elsewhere.
It’s “designated” not “dedicated” if I read it right so thoroughly ambiguous. If a militant cyclist demanded that I move then I’d probably tell them to get stuffed but would move if asked and it made sense for other passengers to get the bike out of the way.
 

tspaul26

Established Member
Joined
9 Jun 2016
Messages
1,588
It’s “designated” not “dedicated” if I read it right so thoroughly ambiguous. If a militant cyclist demanded that I move then I’d probably tell them to get stuffed but would move if asked and it made sense for other passengers to get the bike out of the way.
Exactly.

If memory serves, there are also notices (or used to be) which made clear that the spaces were to be given up if necessary.
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,665
Location
Elginshire
The Official word is here: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/plan-your-journey/cycling/bikes-trains

From this I'd say that if the Cycle space is taken, even by non-cycles, you're hard out of luck.
I'd agree with this to an extent, but only if it's obvious that the cycle area is occupied from outside the train. If you can't see that the space is already occupied and the train departs a few seconds after boarding, there's nowhere else for the bike to go.

It’s “designated” not “dedicated” if I read it right so thoroughly ambiguous. If a militant cyclist demanded that I move then I’d probably tell them to get stuffed but would move if asked and it made sense for other passengers to get the bike out of the way.
In the opening post it says that the cyclist was "loud and confrontational", but it is not a first-hand account of what took place. Perhaps the cyclist did politely ask and only became confrontational after being told to get stuffed. We'll never know.
 

Ex-controller

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2021
Messages
252
Location
Glasgow
If the cyclist was abrasive and aggressive about it I would stay put. If they were reasonable and polite I’d be more than happy to move.
 

Glasgowbusguy

On Moderation
Joined
21 Feb 2019
Messages
419
The bike space is there for bikes but if passengers are sin the area then the bike is out of luck
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
3,713
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
The bike space is there for bikes but if passengers are sin the area then the bike is out of luck

I never take my bike on peak hour trains, but even at other times the designated and clearly marked bike space is frequently blocked, by luggage, prams, and people sitting on the fold-down seats, the latter sometimes despite there being plenty of other seats available. However I don't believe asking them to move themselves or their belongings is worth the possible hassle, abuse or worse, I simply stand at the doors (on the non-platform) side with my bike. It does seem reasonable, though, that given the tiny proportion of total train accommodation allocated to bikes it should actually be available for them.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,240
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The bike space is there for bikes but if passengers are sin the area then the bike is out of luck

This is why all tip up seats should be removed from all trains and buses. It's either a bike area or it isn't. It doesn't work when quite desirable seats (due to massive legroom) are placed there.

Meanwhile as with reservations there is an easy fix for TOCs to solve this - place clear signage stating what happens in event of a conflict. People cannot be trusted to be reasonable; the expectations must be set and clearly signed.
 

Stan63

Member
Joined
20 Apr 2014
Messages
59
Location
Paisley
Thanks for the replies to my question. When trains are really busy at peak time you just have to take your chance whether it is for a seat or a bicycle.

Stan
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,509
Location
Bristol
This is why all tip up seats should be removed from all trains and buses. It's either a bike area or it isn't. It doesn't work when quite desirable seats (due to massive legroom) are placed there.
If there's space to move and you're sitting in the bike seats purely for convenience I would consider it quite reasonable to be asked to move. I also find the tip-up seats less comfortable due to the side-on position and being opposite the loo.
Meanwhile as with reservations there is an easy fix for TOCs to solve this - place clear signage stating what happens in event of a conflict. People cannot be trusted to be reasonable; the expectations must be set and clearly signed.
Slightly harsh, there are multiple reasonable extrapolations of circumstances undefined. Also, stating priority can sometimes lead to people who might attempt to be reasonably getting arsey about the priority.
 

Facing Back

Member
Joined
21 May 2019
Messages
909
This is why all tip up seats should be removed from all trains and buses. It's either a bike area or it isn't. It doesn't work when quite desirable seats (due to massive legroom) are placed there.

Meanwhile as with reservations there is an easy fix for TOCs to solve this - place clear signage stating what happens in event of a conflict. People cannot be trusted to be reasonable; the expectations must be set and clearly signed.
On the matter of the seats in the bike spaces, removing the seats would remove the ambiguity however on the TPE trains I've travelled in recently, the seats are always taken by people and I've never seen a bike, so you would make people stand on many trips by removing them for no benefit.

I'm all for encouraging people to cycle but I am not sure that this is the right answer.

* OK perhaps not the the last one.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,638
I certainly get people out of the tip up seats for bikes on my trains (158s). They're there to be used if the space isn't required and in my opinion should be removed entirely as they just create conflict. On my trains they're only there to make up the headline capacity figures, they were installed on that basis.

Some people just like to sit there and bikes should absolutely not be refused on that basis.

If the train is jam packed (short formed or whatever) I wouldn't ask people to leave it in order to accommodate a bike, but certainly wouldn't leave people sat there watching one be left behind as if their choice is important.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,240
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
On the matter of the seats in the bike spaces, removing the seats would remove the ambiguity however on the TPE trains I've travelled in recently, the seats are always taken by people and I've never seen a bike, so you would make people stand on many trips by removing them for no benefit.

I'm all for encouraging people to cycle but I am not sure that this is the right answer.

* OK perhaps not the the last one.

One option on guarded trains would be to fit a lock to them so the guard can unlock when the train is loaded between <total capacity of normal seats> and <standing load>. They're only valuable in that narrow band. When there are normal seats those should be used, and when there are standees more floor space is more valuable than tip-up seats that cause a seated person to take up roughly two peoples' worth of floorspace.

I'd just get rid. The 185 layout is terribly designed anyway, 1st should have been at the end.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,509
Location
Bristol
One option on guarded trains would be to fit a lock to them so the guard can unlock when the train is loaded between <total capacity of normal seats> and <standing load>. They're only valuable in that narrow band. When there are normal seats those should be used, and when there are standees more floor space is more valuable than tip-up seats that cause a seated person to take up roughly two peoples' worth of floorspace.

I'd just get rid. The 185 layout is terribly designed anyway, 1st should have been at the end.
I'd replace them with perch rests, tbh. I think that's the easiest solution to give people somewhere to rest when all seats are full but also encourage people to leave the area free for as long as possible.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,240
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I'd replace them with perch rests, tbh. I think that's the easiest solution to give people somewhere to rest when all seats are full but also encourage people to leave the area free for as long as possible.

By choice I'd put nothing there and keep it for standing space on peak trains where bikes aren't allowed, but perches are better than tip-ups, as the latter are quite desirable for some, wheres while a perch is more desirable than standing it's not more desirable than another seat.

There may even be a lesson there - if people travelling alone do like side-facing seats, fit some elsewhere. That also adds standing space. Might almost be as good as standbacks.

Fundamentally, good train design minimises passenger conflict. There should, so far as possible, never be two valid claims on a space, and if there is signage should clearly state which must take priority (and does in some bike and wheelchair spaces I think, but not every TOC does it right). The French were bang on with their classic sign of "if there is a dispute on the state of the window it is to be closed". OK, I'd prefer it open, but it clearly states what happens in case of a dispute, and that way there can be no valid arguments, just tap the sign, do what it says and get on with your day. I'd have far more of this, e.g. "if reservations are not shown they do not apply; in this case take any seat", "if there is dispute on the position of the window blinds they are to be left open" etc. (Those are my preferences, the other way works too, the key is that the expectation is set and clearly written).
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,509
Location
Bristol
There may even be a lesson there - if people travelling alone do like side-facing seats, fit some elsewhere. That also adds standing space. Might almost be as good as standbacks.
Might work on busy outer suburban or regional commuter trains like the WCML to Northampton or the Brighton line where passengers from the original will want a seat but as you get close to the terminus people are happier to stand, but for every transverse seat you fit you could have had 2 airline seats. On most longer routes sacrificing seats for standing space wouldn't be sensible.
 

NIT100

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2022
Messages
95
Location
Glasgow
Perhaps when they order there new 'standardised'fleet they can be encouraged to allow for more open space than just trying to squeeze in more fixed seats. I would be disappointed if the 156s were replaced with the standard EMU cycle provision of just tip-up seats next to a front wheel stand for 2 bikes. The space on the 156s for six bikes is large and I have never ever seen 6 bikes in it, and only a couple of times seen them actually hung vertically, but the space is very useful for people with prams taking short journeys where folding it up to unfold it minutes later isn't practical at all.

I do think prams should have priority over cyclists even in spaces marked for bikes, much the same as wheelchair users have priority over prams.

I'd replace them with perch rests, tbh. I think that's the easiest solution to give people somewhere to rest when all seats are full but also encourage people to leave the area free for as long as possible.

Like the new 777s have; perches and the floor in bright yellow with a cycle (or wheelchair) pictogram to mark out the area. More difficult but not impossible with carpet.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,240
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Might work on busy outer suburban or regional commuter trains like the WCML to Northampton or the Brighton line where passengers from the original will want a seat but as you get close to the terminus people are happier to stand, but for every transverse seat you fit you could have had 2 airline seats. On most longer routes sacrificing seats for standing space wouldn't be sensible.

Replied in new thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-seats-be-provided-on-regional-trains.242721/

I do think prams should have priority over cyclists even in spaces marked for bikes, much the same as wheelchair users have priority over prams.

Certainly not. Prams can be folded, cycles mostly cannot. Obviously wheelchairs come top but should have a dedicated space which is only otherwise used for standees on very busy trains. Obviously if you've got a Brompton in a cycle space and someone boards with a rigid cycle it's only considerate to fold it, though.

Before you say "but some can't", when did you last see a Silver Cross? Basically all prams fold so as to fit in the boot of a small car. People simply don't buy non-foldable prams any more.
 

185

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
5,031
...on the TPE trains I've travelled in recently, the seats are always taken by people and I've never seen a bike...
Primarily because they imposed mandatory bike reservations on every single train, driving cyclists onto all the surrounding operating companies. If your gonna cycle somewhere, perhaps long distance, your arrival time can vary by hours dependant on weather, punctures, tiredness.

Mind you, even rarer than cyclists on TPE trains, are actual TPE trains. David Attenborough is out there looking for these rare endangered creatures as we speak.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,240
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Primarily because they imposed mandatory bike reservations on every single train, driving cyclists onto all the surrounding operating companies. If your gonna cycle somewhere, perhaps long distance, your arrival time can vary by hours dependant on weather, punctures, tiredness.

Reservations for cycles make sense due to the very limited space. Only on very frequent metro services e.g. Merseyrail does it really not (and the 777s have six spaces per train, shows it can be done!)

It would make sense for it to be easier to get one, e.g. via a dedicated website and/or app as well as Twitter and by text/phone. I'd happily pay a nominal fee to reserve in order to have this convenience and certainty.
 

NIT100

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2022
Messages
95
Location
Glasgow
Certainly not. Prams can be folded, cycles mostly cannot. Obviously wheelchairs come top but should have a dedicated space which is only otherwise used for standees on very busy trains. Obviously if you've got a Brompton in a cycle space and someone boards with a rigid cycle it's only considerate to fold it, though.

Before you say "but some can't", when did you last see a Silver Cross? Basically all prams fold so as to fit in the boot of a small car. People simply don't buy non-foldable prams any more.

Fair enough, it is a difficult position in all situations. I agree, for any long journey prams can and should be folded, and where bicycle spaces are reservable then they should be honoured first.

But for short metro journeys I don't think it is reasonable to expect people to fold prams for a few minutes and then unfold them. On North Clyde line trains I have got off the train with my bike twice to allow people with prams to board.

If you have a cycle reservation system then I think you should have a pram reservation system as well, particularly if the cycle reservations are free, I don't really think cyclists should get the ability to have certainty there bike will be carried for free but parents with very young children have to just hope there is going to be space. That is just my opinion though
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,240
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
But for short metro journeys I don't think it is reasonable to expect people to fold prams for a few minutes and then unfold them.

There's normally somewhere else a pram could go, e.g. the vestibule, on that sort of train.

If it's full and standing, then it's full. That's life, wait for the next one.

On North Clyde line trains I have got off the train with my bike twice to allow people with prams to board.

No way would I do that. I'd consider alighting for a wheelchair user, but not anyone able bodied, regardless of what they had with them.
 

Facing Back

Member
Joined
21 May 2019
Messages
909
Primarily because they imposed mandatory bike reservations on every single train, driving cyclists onto all the surrounding operating companies. If your gonna cycle somewhere, perhaps long distance, your arrival time can vary by hours dependant on weather, punctures, tiredness.

Mind you, even rarer than cyclists on TPE trains, are actual TPE trains. David Attenborough is out there looking for these rare endangered creatures as we speak.
lol no arguments from me on either point
 

Davester50

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2021
Messages
715
Location
UK
I've moved for a wheelchair, and would for a pram, but no way would I stand for someone's luggage.
 

londonbridge

Established Member
Joined
30 Jun 2010
Messages
1,479
I do think prams should have priority over cyclists even in spaces marked for bikes, much the same as wheelchair users have priority over prams.

Can’t remember details but I’m sure I remember reading of cases on the bus where a wheelchair user was refused access because the space was full of buggies and prams and the mothers refused to move?

Also slightly o/T but there was a story a few weeks ago which went viral, a mother with a buggy arrived at the bus stop and found two other mums with buggies already waiting, so she walked back to the previous stop and got on there so that one of the other two was refused access when the bus got to the original stop, among other things she was accused of being a queue jumper and a selfish see you next Tuesday….
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,240
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That is not strong enough to comply with legal precedent on equality law.

"YOU MUST BY LAW MAKE SPACE FOR WHEELCHAIR USERS" is what it needs to say. If the bus operator doesn't make reasonable effort to ensure they move, then they are committing an offence under the Equality Act. Just asking nicely isn't enough.

I'm fairly sure Arriva MK buses have a sign saying "Wheelchair priority by law" which is nearer the mark.
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
I've moved for a wheelchair, and would for a pram, but no way would I stand for someone's luggage.
So don't sit in the bike space, then. Sitting in the middle shelf of vertical luggage racks of Great Northern was a regular peak thing pre2020, but we always moved if someone had actual luggage for it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top