Taking bicycle on peak time Scotrail service

[londonbridge]

And what happens if getting the wheelchair user on involves one of the buggy or pram users having to get off and wait for the next bus and they refuse to do so? Much like the incident I saw and reported on here when a bloke got on the bus and put his bike in the wheelchair space before tapping in, then refused to move and gave the driver a mouthful of verbal abuse when told to get off. Turned into a standoff with the driver radioing control and the police, but I didn’t see the outcome as my bus arrived shortly afterwards.

 

[Meglos]

And what happens if getting the wheelchair user on involves one of the buggy or pram users having to get off and wait for the next bus and they refuse to do so? Much like the incident I saw and reported on here when a bloke got on the bus and put his bike in the wheelchair space before tapping in, then refused to move and gave the driver a mouthful of verbal abuse when told to get off. Turned into a standoff with the driver radioing control and the police, but I didn’t see the outcome as my bus arrived shortly afterwards.

The buggy or pram user is not required to get off, however they are expected to fold the device down. Unless the Pram is more than 30 years old then it's highly unlikely that it doesn't fold away.

 

[londonbridge]

And again, what happens if they’ve got shopping stored underneath it and/or simply refuse to take the child out and fold it down for whatever reason??

 

[Facing Back]

And again, what happens if they’ve got shopping stored underneath it and/or simply refuse to take the child out and fold it down for whatever reason??

A brief prison sentence or perhaps a birching?

If they are simply somewhere that they shouldn't be and not causing any particular harm then leave them alone and don't be too pedantic about the rules. If they are stopping a wheelchair user from boarding then more firmly insist then call the police.

Is it really common for someone not to move for a wheelchair? I can see how arguments develop between cyclists and pushchair pushers but not moving for a wheelchair is beyond me.

 

[eoff]

The ScotRail videos are silent on the point of conflict for the spaces. I can't really tell if there are signs in the videos...

 

[Davester50]

So don't sit in the bike space, then.

It's a seat.

 

[ScotsRail]

Technically its more than one seat.

The biggest issue I see with bikes on the network is the services where the staff will just let them on anywhere rather than the allotted spaces. Some good staff out there who will insist on the bikes being in the correct space in the correct carriage but there are some others who just don't seem to give a darn. Was pleased to see a service to Edinburgh leave some cyclists behind the other day owing to there being no space for the bikes rather than try and cram them into passenger space.

 

[lachlan]

The buggy or pram user is not required to get off, however they are expected to fold the device down. Unless the Pram is more than 30 years old then it's highly unlikely that it doesn't fold away.

If it doesn't fold away though I'm pretty sure they are required to get off to allow a wheelchair user to board

 

[al78]

This is why I nearly always travel with a folding bicycle if I need a bike for transport at both ends. Too much anxiety trying to use the rail network with a full size bike. Once I tried to get on a train when all the bike spaces were taken, the driver was sympathetic but said no so I had to cycle the last 39 miles to my destination.

 

[Dave W]

If it doesn't fold away though I'm pretty sure they are required to get off to allow a wheelchair user to board

All well and good, but you return to a similar problem you see with booked seats, namely: all the person already there has to do is refuse to move. It does put staff between a rock and a hard place - what are they meant to do? Forcibly remove a person and a pushchair? Call the police on them?

 

[lachlan]

All well and good, but you return to a similar problem you see with booked seats, namely: all the person already there has to do is refuse to move. It does put staff between a rock and a hard place - what are they meant to do? Forcibly remove a person and a pushchair? Call the police on them?

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was referring to buses. However with trains I don't think the seats beside a cycle space are bookable? And they have dedicated space for disabled passengers. The grey area is with those "priority seats" that I believe can be booked (?) But are supposed to be reserved (or at least, given up for) for disabled passengers.

 

[ashkeba]

Was pleased to see a service to Edinburgh leave some cyclists behind the other day owing to there being no space for the bikes rather than try and cram them into passenger space.

And in future they'll probably drive cars instead of attempt to use the railway, which will make all the curmudgeons on here delighted.

Make the trains bigger to match demand and stop leaving anyone behind.

 

[Dave W]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was referring to buses. However with trains I don't think the seats beside a cycle space are bookable? And they have dedicated space for disabled passengers. The grey area is with those "priority seats" that I believe can be booked (?) But are supposed to be reserved (or at least, given up for) for disabled passengers.

I was providing a comparison rather than referring to cycles vs booked seats.

The same situation as I outlined exists on buses, though. There's the occasional news story about it happening, and it's usually "the driver refused to get involved". The pram owner will say no, the wheelchair user will quote the rules, the pram owner will say "tough luck" - what should the bus driver do? (and to loop back to topic - if we mandated spaces be vacated for cycles, what would the guard do in the same position?)

 

[al78]

And in future they'll probably drive cars instead of attempt to use the railway, which will make all the curmudgeons on here delighted.

Make the trains bigger to match demand and stop leaving anyone behind.

Unfortunately there is no magic wand to make the trains bigger to transport more bikes, and even if they were bigger the extra space would be given over to seating or it would become rammed full with cyclists anyway. The UK is not like some countries on the European mainland where cycling is seen as a viable mode of transport and cyclists get little more than lip service here, which is one reason our roads in urban areas are so congested.

If we act like Americans, we shouldn't be surprised if we get the same results as Americans:

UK is third most traffic-congested country in Europe - study

Time wasted in Britain's worst traffic jams cost motorists a staggering £31bn last year, according to new research.

news.sky.com

 

[theking]

It's a seat.








Exactly!







A paying passenger should not have to make way for an item someone has brought onto the train.







It's not a bike space it's a multipurpose area and if someone is sitting there then tough.

 

[randyrippley]

Bikes take up two (or more) seat spaces. Which aren't paid for.
Bikes should be banned from trains until the riders are forced to pay for the space used i.e. bike+rider = 3 tickets

 

[3rd rail land]

All well and good, but you return to a similar problem you see with booked seats, namely: all the person already there has to do is refuse to move. It does put staff between a rock and a hard place - what are they meant to do? Forcibly remove a person and a pushchair? Call the police on them?

Aren't bus drivers usually instructed not to leave the cab to resolve disputes? I cant imagine the police would be interested in attending to an incident of that nature. It's the as finding someone in your reserved seat on a train, what can the staff do if the person in the wrong refuses to vacate the seat? I think TOCs like LNER have come up with a good solution with their seat guarantee policy whereby one can get compensation if their reserved seat is unavailable.

As for the matter of people not moving to accommodate bikes I would personally move if alternate seats were available or I only had a short while left on my journey as I'd then be happy to stand. But otherwise tough, its a multi purpose space with seating and bikes don't get priority however inconvenient it is for the bike rider. Its not like a wheelchair space where the wheelchair user absolutely has priority over anything and everyone else.

 

[JamieL]

If it doesn't fold away though I'm pretty sure they are required to get off to allow a wheelchair user to board

What is your rationale for this? If there is a pram or pushchair, that implies a very young child who is likely to be the more vulnerable person than the wheelchair user. Obviously it depends on the circumstances and it really should never come down to a batting order between these groups as undoubtedly there will be able bodied adults who can be asked to get off instead. As for cyclists, I agree with some of the sentiments above - if the individual asks politely and there is space, I will happily move. If they are rude or the train is crammed, I doubt I would move - it is effectively a large piece of luggage that is freeloading. I would absolutely move for an occupied pram/pushchair/wheelchair in all circumstances.

 

[Facing Back]

What is your rationale for this? If there is a pram or pushchair, that implies a very young child who is likely to be the more vulnerable person than the wheelchair user. Obviously it depends on the circumstances and it really should never come down to a batting order between these groups as undoubtedly there will be able bodied adults who can be asked to get off instead. As for cyclists, I agree with some of the sentiments above - if the individual asks politely and there is space, I will happily move. If they are rude or the train is crammed, I doubt I would move - it is effectively a large piece of luggage that is freeloading. I would absolutely move for an occupied pram/pushchair/wheelchair in all circumstances.

I agree with that. I wouldn't consider a cycle as freeloading though. I wish anyone luck in determining who is more vulnerable and deserving - a young child or a person in a wheelchair. Typically a child can be sat on your lap or in your arms I guess. I have to say though I don't recall a situation where people on a train haven't done their best to accommodate either including giving up seats immediately.

Large luggage and bikes though, not so much.

 

[Falcon1200]

A paying passenger should not have to make way for an item someone has brought onto the train.

It's not a bike space it's a multipurpose area and if someone is sitting there then tough.

Actually, if an area is marked as a bike space, that is exactly what it is, and if other seats are available passengers should use them first.

Bikes should be banned from trains until the riders are forced to pay for the space used i.e. bike+rider = 3 tickets

Should the same not then apply to other space-takers, eg luggage, prams, etc?

 

[Facing Back]

Should the same not then apply to other space-takers, eg luggage, prams, etc?

When RyanRail gets its first franchise...

 

[al78]

Actually, if an area is marked as a bike space, that is exactly what it is, and if other seats are available passengers should use them first.

Is is not more like a shared use section of the pavement? On these, pedestrians have the habit of walking in the shared use half instead of the pedestrian only half two feet to the side because they don't think, which makes cycling on shared use paths inconvenient at times (and is one reason why I cycle on the road almost all the time).

Should the same not then apply to other space-takers, eg luggage, prams, etc?

It is irrelevant anyway because a ticket does not pay for a seat, it pays for transportation. If it all of a sudden does pay for a seat, where can I get compensation for having to stand from Farringdon to Three Bridges last Thursday evening?

On the very rare occasion I have taken a full size bike on a train, I haven't had any problem with putting it in the bike space even if it needed a small bit of cooperation from other people. Most people are decent and don't strive for an ego boost by trying to inflict power over others through being deliberately obstructive and antagonistic.

 

[duncanp]

If it doesn't fold away though I'm pretty sure they are required to get off to allow a wheelchair user to board

Good luck with trying to enforce that.

What happens if the bus is a rural service with a low frequency, or if the bus is the last bus of the day?

The law needs to be clarified to say what should happen if

• Someone refuses to move out of the wheelchair space when requested to do so.
• There is simply no room on the bus for a buggy user to fold down the buggy and move out of the way to allow a wheelchair user to board.

 

[lachlan]

Good luck with trying to enforce that.

What happens if the bus is a rural service with a low frequency, or if the bus is the last bus of the day?

The law needs to be clarified to say what should happen if

• Someone refuses to move out of the wheelchair space when requested to do so.
• There is simply no room on the bus for a buggy user to fold down the buggy and move out of the way to allow a wheelchair user to board.

I was perhaps misremembering somewhat. This is what it says on Citizens Advice Scotland:

"Wheelchair users should be given priority over pushchair users. If there's a pushchair in the wheelchair space, when you try to board the bus, the driver should ask the pushchair user to move. However if the pushchair user refuses to move the driver can not force them to do so."

This does suggest wheelchair users have priority over buggies but that this is unenforceable.

I think it's worth remembering though that having children is a choice whereas being disabled is not, and that having to use a buggy is usually only for a short length of one's life whereas disabilities are often (but not always) lifelong.

 

[Facing Back]

I was perhaps misremembering somewhat. This is what it says on Citizens Advice Scotland:

"Wheelchair users should be given priority over pushchair users. If there's a pushchair in the wheelchair space, when you try to board the bus, the driver should ask the pushchair user to move

I must admit that I thought the bus driver had the legal authority to "force" someone to move - or to get off. Although, other than refusing to move the bus I'm not sure what sanctions they can apply - physically moving a mum and toddler (yes I know it could be any adult but the imagery works better) is obviously overkill and possibly tantamount to assault so absent policy where the bus stops and a replacement picks up all of the "other" passengers I have no idea how it would be enforced. I suspect the police will be unimpressed to be called out to deal with a bolshie parent.

Children are of course a choice (in the majority of cases) but it is one which many many people consider an imperative so it is reasonable to expect provision on public infrastructure.

How big an issue is this in practice? Or is this mainly a theoretical discussion?

 

[NIT100]

How big an issue is this in practice? Or is this mainly a theoretical discussion

It is a persistent issue for wheelchair users. It went to supreme court in 2017 which rules wheelchair users have priority under Equality laws.

See here:
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com...air-spaces-buses-must-be-priority-court-rules

The commission recommended improved clarity in legislation, I am not sure if this ever happened.

Still an issue for many people though for example one in Glasgow: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/...n=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

 

[43066]

I must admit that I thought the bus driver had the legal authority to "force" someone to move - or to get off. Although, other than refusing to move the bus I'm not sure what sanctions they can apply - physically moving a mum and toddler (yes I know it could be any adult but the imagery works better) is obviously overkill and possibly tantamount to assault so absent policy where the bus stops and a replacement picks up all of the "other" passengers I have no idea how it would be enforced. I suspect the police will be unimpressed to be called out to deal with a bolshie parent.

IIRC there are indeed specific regulations dealing with conduct on a bus which, if breached, mean you can be asked to leave by the driver. However in practice there is no way a bus driver is going to be in any position to enforce this (and would be foolhardy to attempt to!), so it’s largely a theoretical discussion.

A similar issue regularly occurs on the railway: people can be asked to leave, and staff can technically use reasonable force to remove them, but this is invariably against company policy and opens up various cans of worms - not least the risk of getting thumped!

 

[WelshBluebird]

IIRC there are indeed specific regulations dealing with conduct on a bus which, if breached, mean you can be asked to leave by the driver. However in practice there is no way a bus driver is going to be in any position to enforce this (and would be foolhardy to attempt to!), so it’s largely a theoretical discussion.

Not directly the same issue, but back when I was a student in Bath it wasn't that odd to have a driver stop the bus and refuse to move unless drunk idiots stopped acting up or got off the bus. Not sure how much trouble a driver would get in for delaying journeys like that but it pretty much always worked as nobody wanted to be the reason for the entire bus load of pepple getting delayed! So there's absolutely ways and means. Though I must admit I suspect other passengers would likely be more sympathetic to someone with a pram than they would be to drunk idiots!

 

[43066]

Not directly the same issue, but back when I was a student in Bath it wasn't that odd to have a driver stop the bus and refuse to move unless drunk idiots stopped acting up or got off the bus. Not sure how much trouble a driver would get in for delaying journeys like that but it pretty much always worked as nobody wanted to be the reason for the entire bus load of pepple getting delayed! So there's absolutely ways and means. Though I must admit I suspect other passengers would likely be more sympathetic to someone with a pram than they would be to drunk idiots!

Ultimately “wheelchair user versus mum with pushchair” is one of those situations that’s impossible to legislate away, and relies on people being selfless and thinking of others. Unfortunately that kind of behaviour is an increasingly scarce commodity these days!

 

[Facing Back]

Ultimately “wheelchair user versus mum with pushchair” is one of those situations that’s impossible to legislate away, and relies on people being selfless and thinking of others. Unfortunately that kind of behaviour is an increasingly scarce commodity these days!

Indeed, which is why I asked if it was a habitual problem. Generally, other passengers seems very happy to be accommodating and actively helpful on trains I have been on when people get on with pushchairs and certainly a wheelchair. Often helping to lift pushchairs, help with the parent's luggage etc. Less so with bicycles.

If the story posted about bus drivers refusing to allow wheelchairs to board because "it is too much trouble" are true then that's a bit of a different story