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TfGM Bus franchising

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Xenophon PCDGS

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Did he also pick the Metrolink livery while he was still an MP, given that it's the same shade of yellow?
Maybe you have not seen the Metrolink trams recently, but on those that I have seen carrying the current livery (without carrying full body adverts), silver grey (not yellow) is the larger colour in the livery.

Why should any MP normally hold any sort of sway on public transport matters as their role covers a very wide aspect of public service expectations.
 
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Deerfold

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Maybe you have not seen the Metrolink trams recently, but on those that I have seen carrying the current livery (without carrying full body adverts), silver grey (not yellow) is the larger colour in the livery.

Why should any MP normally hold any sort of sway on public transport matters as their role covers a very wide aspect of public service expectations.
Which MP do you think has been involved with this?
 

Goldfish62

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Why would they care? What benefit do they get from having their logo on the bus?
One argument put forward by London operators was that city investors would see their names on the buses. Doesn't really apply in Wigan and Bolton...
 

AB93

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Bungle965

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Stotts services which will not operate on Thursday 16 November
Stotts will not be running the following services due to staffing issues. Please note that this page will continue to be updated as information develops.

151 (Mosten Ben to NGMH)
6.55am, 9.07am, 12.07pm, 3.07pm and 6.13pm.

159 (Middleton to Oldham)
7.19am, 8.35am, 9.40am, 10.40am, 11.40am, 12.40pm, 1.40pm, 2.40pm, 3.40pm and 5.10pm.

183 (Royal Oldham Hospital to Limeside)
7.32am, 8.29am, 9.30am, 10.30am, 11.30am, 1.30pm, 2.38pm, 3.30pm, 4.30pm, 5.30pm and 6.30pm.

183 (Limeside to Royal Oldham Hospital)
7am, 7.57am, 9am, 10am, 11am, 12pm, 1pm, 2pm, 3pm, 4.02pm, 5.02pm and 6.02pm.

335 (Ashton)
7.06am, 9.19am, 11.19am, 1.19pm, 3.19pm and 5.27pm.

339 (Ashton-under-Lyne circular)
9am, 9.57am, 11.57am, 12.57pm, 2.57pm, 3.57pm and 6.04pm.

396 (Ashton to Middleton)
7.25am, 8.47am, 10.35am, 11.47am, 1.35pm, 2.47pm, 4.35pm and 5.54pm.

396 (Middleton to Ashton)
6.30am, 7.47am, 9.35am, 10.47am, 12.35pm, 1.47pm, 3.35pm and 4.54pm.

Life for tendered operations outside of the franchising for now continues to be pretty grim, Stotts appear very short at the moment although it does look (despite what has been stated on the TfGM website) more services have been able to run than what has been advertised.
Example with the 159:

Stotts by no means the only ones still affected I suspect but I haven't seen Vision on this page for a while now.
 

domcoop7

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Life for tendered operations outside of the franchising for now continues to be pretty grim, Stotts appear very short at the moment although it does look (despite what has been stated on the TfGM website) more services have been able to run than what has been advertised.
Example with the 159:

Stotts by no means the only ones still affected I suspect but I haven't seen Vision on this page for a while now.
Can't see it ever resolving, to be honest. It's been like that for months. Indeed I'm surprised the remaining independents (who must now realise that there's next to no chance of them ever getting anything other than the odd school contract) don't just throw in the towel and call it a day. Even the option of selling out to Stagecoach / Go Ahead / Rotala probably isn't feasible due to TfGM procuring the buses and depots to be used in Franchising.
 

WatcherZero

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The small franchise and school service operators provide their own depots so there has been some trading hands. Despite all the doom mongery about franchising pushing up running costs the bidders have been extremely aggressive with their bid pricing utilising their ability to take advantage of economies of scale has allowed them to crowd out the independents to a probably greater extent than expected.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The service 364 (Stockport- Torkington-Stockport) circular service is one that Stotts run but is not mentioned. I did try to look up the Bee Transport website, but all I got was a "Sorry, the website is being updated" note.
 
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andrewbowden

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https://tfgm.com/public-transport/bus/routes/364-stockport is working now.

Stotts have been having issues for a few months. Presumably they've lost drivers to Bee Network operators and are now struggling to recruit given the company has an unclear future. Would assume they're prioritising services in consultation with TfGM as some routes have been unaffected.
Perhaps they're waiting it out until the next wave of franchises are announced. Given the sizes of their school operation currently, you'd hope both Belle Vue and Stotts manage to bag something.
 

Leyland Bus

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https://tfgm.com/public-transport/bus/routes/364-stockport is working now.

Stotts have been having issues for a few months. Presumably they've lost drivers to Bee Network operators and are now struggling to recruit given the company has an unclear future. Would assume they're prioritising services in consultation with TfGM as some routes have been unaffected.
Perhaps they're waiting it out until the next wave of franchises are announced. Given the sizes of their school operation currently, you'd hope both Belle Vue and Stotts manage to bag something.
I've often wondered if smaller operators like Stotts and Belle Vue etc wouldn't be better clubbing together for a bid and run it jointly... unless that's not allowed? Might mean some upheaval but possibly better than the alternative?
 

Rod Harrison

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It's no different to any other franchising situation. If you go to McDonald's for a burger, or order a pizza from Domino's, you don't see the branding of the franchisee; the only brand visible is that of the umbrella organisation.

Does it really matter? The passenger is a Bee Network passenger and they're unlikely to care which bus company operates the service.
Almost all businesses have pride in their brands which often have cost them a significant amount to build. If they aren't allowed to display their logos then if a Stagecoach, First or Go Ahead bus doesn't turn up regularly they won't be blamed by the customers and as you say, customers couldn't care less who is running the service and it probably will be Burnham who gets the blame.
 

riceuten

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This is what you end up with once the local politicians become involved rather than the bus operators. No one would expect the bus operators to run the councils.
If bus operators are given a free hand - as they were in 1986, we can see why franchising has had to be introduced.
 

WatcherZero

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Almost all businesses have pride in their brands which often have cost them a significant amount to build. If they aren't allowed to display their logos then if a Stagecoach, First or Go Ahead bus doesn't turn up regularly they won't be blamed by the customers and as you say, customers couldn't care less who is running the service and it probably will be Burnham who gets the blame.

Thats the aim though, seamless customer service through one contact point rather than a myriad of companies and your customer complaint goes through the service regulator rather than via the provider and trusting them to pass it on up the chain to the people paying them to operate the service. So more of an interest in taking the complaint seriously.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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If bus operators are given a free hand - as they were in 1986, we can see why franchising has had to be introduced.
Do I sense that you assume franchising will follow in all large conurbations, because I cannot see why. If bus operations are seen to be under local council control, let them use council tax monies to fund such aspirations without any aid from central Government.
 

andrewbowden

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Do I sense that you assume franchising will follow in all large conurbations, because I cannot see why. If bus operations are seen to be under local council control, let them use council tax monies to fund such aspirations without any aid from central Government.
Local councils have started calling for the ability to franchise.

If they had the power, some would take it, some wouldn't.
 

johncrossley

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Do I sense that you assume franchising will follow in all large conurbations, because I cannot see why. If bus operations are seen to be under local council control, let them use council tax monies to fund such aspirations without any aid from central Government.

Central government already pay a large chunk of the cost of running buses. For example, concessionary passes and the £2 fare cap. It is a national government policy to permit franchising and provide funding where appropriate.
 

Deerfold

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Central government already pay a large chunk of the cost of running buses. For example, concessionary passes and the £2 fare cap. It is a national government policy to permit franchising and provide funding where appropriate.
Central government does not fund concessionary passes.
 

johncrossley

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Central government does not fund concessionary passes.

Local authorities get much of the money to pay for them as a grant from central government. Technically, the local authority can spend it on whatever they want, but in reality the grant would be somewhat lower if they didn't have to fund concessionary passes.

Well said...a good correction.

I presume you disapprove of free travel. As that is clearly contrary to free market principles.
 
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GusB

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The funding of concessionary passes and potential franchising in other regions is not within the scope of this thread. This thread is for discussing issues related to the franchising process in Greater Manchester. Please stay on-topic!
 

andrewbowden

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how do operators make money on the bee network? or do they not?
They get paid to run the services. Same as operators do in London. It's a management contract. Manage some services and get paid to do so. pretty simple operating model really. Happens in a lot of industries.

How much money the operator makes depends on what they bid and how successful they are at meeting their success criteria.
 

Goldfish62

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They get paid to run the services. Same as operators do in London. It's a management contract. Manage some services and get paid to do so. pretty simple operating model really. Happens in a lot of industries.
Indeed. It's the way the railways are contracted and is the typical model for large scale bus "franchises" abroad.

How much money the operator makes depends on what they bid and how successful they are at meeting their success criteria.
The main quality criteria are in respect of service reliability, ie mileage operated against schedule and % operated on time. Deductions from the contract price for at-fault lost mileage and % on time departures below the target set by TfGM and a bonus for exceeding the on-time target.
 
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ic31420

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Indeed. It's the way the railways are contracted and is the typical model for large scale bus "franchises" abroad.


The main quality criteria are in respect of service reliability, ie mileage operated against schedule and % operated on time. Deductions from the contract price for at-fault lost mileage and % on time departures below the target set by TfGM and a bonus for exceeding the on-time target.

How are these timings collected and recorded?
GPS, Manually by drivers punching a button or at stations by some sort of detection?

I just see tons of none jobs being to argue the delay fault allocations and claims, rather like the railways.
 

Goldfish62

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The Bee Network website has been improved recently, thankfully, as it was launched too soon in a rush originally.
That's good to hear. I always thought nine months mobilisation was too much of a rush. Hopefully lots of lessons there for Tranche 2.
 
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