TfGM Bus franchising

[tomoufc]

It has been mentioned in the Manchester Evening News, that later in the year Night Buses are to be trialled in the Wigan and Bolton area's on routes to/from Manchester, but no formal details yet.

Yeah, a trial to start in the Tranche 1 area. Great to see benefits of franchising coming through https://twitter.com/MENnewsdesk/status/1755849009195868260

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Will the "town centre" buses such as those that ran in Stockport (I think it was numbered 300) be another reintroduction to aid the town centre regenerations?

 

[Tim33160]

Well spotted, and thanks.

I assume that this isn’t publicly available though. Some Burnham dislikers are claiming this is made up data, which is ridiculous (much more likely that bad results simply wouldn’t have been released).

As far as I know , the traffic commissioner does log performance data, but it is never publicly released (although I believe transport authorities have access).

Anyway, if anyone knows more about this subject, I would be grateful for your input. Cheers

Following a review, we’ve made timetable changes to help improve the reliability of 44 bus services in Bolton, Wigan and parts of Salford and Bury.
Those from 28 Jan seem to move the frequencies apart at peak times to take account of traffic conditions. Thus move the buses to run at average times from previous data: operational convenience rather than customer focus to keep to regular headways?? No details of cancelled / non-running journeys?. The Bee app only shows scheduled times not real time - apparently this is under review for further app update.

Further timetable changes are planned from April with more and new buses coming into service.

 

[Andyh82]

It has been mentioned in the Manchester Evening News, that later in the year Night Buses are to be trialled in the Wigan and Bolton area's on routes to/from Manchester, but no formal details yet.

Here is the link:-

MSN

This will mean there will be a bus from Manchester to Wigan at night, but there isn’t one during the day

 

[pokemonsuper9]

This will mean there will be a bus from Manchester to Wigan at night, but there isn’t one during the day

Wouldn't be surprised if the first night busses are just the V1 (Leigh is in Wigan) and one of the 8/36/37

 

[jonesy3001]

Just might as well bring back the 32 that went from Wigan to Manchester via the east lancs rd.
Was normally a regular on that service when they where using gm express olympians.

 

[mancbus]

Just might as well bring back the 32 that went from Wigan to Manchester via the east lancs rd.
Was normally a regular on that service when they where using gm express olympians.

Yeah they should cause there is no route from Manchester to Wigan anymore so you can demand it tfgm to implement it

Rosso routes in Bury and Rochdale have reverted to 4xx numbers in the franchise documents - not sure if there is a direct correlation as the routes have changed several times since Rosso numbered them into Bury Bolts and Rochdale Runners

AREA B 24 March 2024

Awarded to Stagecoach
Middleton Large 56 112 114 115 117 118 119 125 129 156 171 172 415 469
Oldham Large 17 18 57 59 81 82 83 84 180 181 182 183 184 348 350 402 403 409 411 425 426 558
Queens Road Large 1 2 3 33 41 52 53 67 90 93 94 95 97 98 100 135 149 475 477 480 487

Awarded to Diamond Oldham Small 151 159

Awarded to First: Rochdale A small 6 434 435 440 442 447 450 451 457 458 461 462
Rochdale B small 467 468

Bear in mind the contract documents went out using the network as it was in (December 2020?)
Hence in Area C it includes all the "Little Gem" network numbers which have largely changed / been withdrawn.

AREA C January 2025 Yet to be awarded
Hyde Road Large 15 38 42 42A 42B 42C 74 76 142 147 201 202 203 205 250 253 256 374
Sharston Large 43 50 85 86 101 102 111 143
Stockport Large 11 23 25 191 192 197 314 322 323 325 327 328 330 358 374 378 384
Tameside Large 7 216 217 219 221 230 231 237 336 346
Wythenshawe Large 18 19 150 245 247 263 281 282 284 286 287 313 368 370
Stockport Small 364 364 375
Tameside A Small 335 339 341 342 345 387 396
Tameside B Small 343 356
Trafford Small 44 84 254 260 261 262 280 288

These aren’t really official and i thought 17 and 18 are run by Queens road

 

[Andyh82]

Just might as well bring back the 32 that went from Wigan to Manchester via the east lancs rd.
Was normally a regular on that service when they where using gm express olympians.

I don’t know what route the 32 went, but maybe they should extend the V2 from Atherton back to Wigan, probably wouldn’t need a massive number of extra buses

 

[Leedsbusman]

Yeah, a trial to start in the Tranche 1 area. Great to see benefits of franchising coming through https://twitter.com/MENnewsdesk/status/1755849009195868260

Although such a trial could have happened at anytime - and there are commercial night buses already in some areas such as the X43.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Yeah they should cause there is no route from Manchester to Wigan anymore so you can demand it tfgm to implement it

There is a train (via Atherton, Bolton, and Chat Moss during peaks).
And I don't know how eager they'd be to add an option that costs £4 return rather than £11.40 (anytime return)

I don’t know what route the 32 went, but maybe they should extend the V2 from Atherton back to Wigan, probably wouldn’t need a massive number of extra buses

Would making the V2 take an hour longer at peak times be a good idea?

 

[mancbus]

Not necessarily If every depot remained in the exact same place as now and with the exact same operators owning those depots, there is potential for some of that to happen however with a logical cap on the percentage of routes which can be ran by one operator, you would end up with changes to the depots possibly more of them, smaller ones, or run by new operators. It would be almost a dead cert to end up with the 18 run from flaming Oldham though in any case, or Brookhouse 10 run by Bolton (that would be an Eccles or Manchester Central depot).

Even before bee network they did stupid changes like this for example the 42 was ran by sharston and the 50 was Hyde Road until 2017 when they swapped them around for some reason.

Remember the route 168 which was withdrawn and went on the news hopefully in the tranche c they will renumber the 150 and bring it back and it would be extend to Ashton

 

[jonesy3001]

Sadly no timetable for the 32 exists anymore even looked on ebay, there's timetables but not showing the route map.

 

[NorthOxonian]

This will mean there will be a bus from Manchester to Wigan at night, but there isn’t one during the day

In fairness, this is quite a common arrangement in London - many of the night routes there are essentially extended variants of the day services. If I had to guess - I'd say an N35 (following the 35 route to Leigh then the 8 to Wigan) would look fairly sensible, but I don't know the area.

 

[mancbus]

Sadly no timetable for the 32 exists anymore even looked on ebay, there's timetables but not showing the route map.

I found the timetable here

https://www.railwaymedia.co.uk/Timetables/GM001/n-gnh7MF

 

[Man of Kent]

These aren’t really official and i thought 17 and 18 are run by Queens road

Wrong. A number of routes have been shifted as part of the franchising process. The information posted by @Tim33160 concurs with what bidders were asked to bid against - 17 & 18 are part of the Oldham large franchise, and will no longer be run from Queens Road.

 

[neilcobbe]

I'd argue that Wigan doesn't need a direct bus to Manchester (or Liverpool for that matter). The need for the long distance, end to end routes like the 32/320 is greatly reduced with more frequent trains.

 

[jonesy3001]

I'd argue that Wigan doesn't need a direct bus to Manchester (or Liverpool for that matter). The need for the long distance, end to end routes like the 32/320 is greatly reduced with more frequent trains.

That's true especially with the electrification works on the bolton to wigan via westhoughton line which could possibly increase the trains when they go electric.

 

[tomoufc]

Although such a trial could have happened at anytime - and there are commercial night buses already in some areas such as the X43.

All we saw from deregulation was cuts to night busses, so I beg to differ

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I found the timetable here

https://www.railwaymedia.co.uk/Timetables/GM001/n-gnh7MF

Was Castle Hill also ever served by a 33 service and if so, when did it end?

 

[Andyh82]

Does anyone know if services 391/392/393 between Stockport and Macclesfield are services that will be incorporated into the Bee Network, or Cheshire services that won't be?

And the same question, will the 394 between Hazel Grove and Glossop be a Bee Network service or is it a Derbyshire service?

 

[jonesy3001]

AREA C January 2025 Yet to be awarded
Hyde Road Large 15 38 42 42A 42B 42C 74 76 142 147 201 202 203 205 250 253 256 374
Sharston Large 43 50 85 86 101 102 111 143
Stockport Large 11 23 25 191 192 197 314 322 323 325 327 328 330 358 374 378 384
Tameside Large 7 216 217 219 221 230 231 237 336 346
Wythenshawe Large 18 19 150 245 247 263 281 282 284 286 287 313 368 370
Stockport Small 364 364 375
Tameside A Small 335 339 341 342 345 387 396
Tameside B Small 343 356
Trafford Small 44 84 254 260 261 262 280 288

How come the 347 Ashton-under-Lyne to Haughton green is missing from the tameside services in the January 2025 announcement?

 

[Leedsbusman]

All we saw from deregulation was cuts to night busses, so I beg to differ

All we saw pre deregulation was cuts to everything.
But what was to stop TfGM funding a pilot of night buses last spring? Or in 2019 for example.

 

[Redmike]

Was Castle Hill also ever served by a 33 service and if so, when did it end?

https://www.railwaymedia.co.uk/Timetables/GM001/n-gnh7MF

Yes, rerouted from Castle Hill on 30th July 2000.

Back on topic and the list of franchised routes is a few years old so routes like 312 and 371 in Stockport don't appear. The 347 missing is quite a big omission though and the 103 is also not on the list. I suppose it will all become clear soon enough.

 

[mangad]

Does anyone know if services 391/392/393 between Stockport and Macclesfield are services that will be incorporated into the Bee Network, or Cheshire services that won't be?

And the same question, will the 394 between Hazel Grove and Glossop be a Bee Network service or is it a Derbyshire service?

391/392 is a Cheshire East subsidised service, so no.

394 is an interesting one as it is funded by both TfGM and Derbyshire County Council. It's not been listed as a potential Bee Network service in the routes list posted on this thread. But in the future, who knows. It's currently run by High Peak. It's possible in the future that the operator of the Tameside or Stockport Small franchisees could bid for it, but there may not be much competition for it. Maybe it will end up cheaper run as part of the Bee Network franchise.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

AREA C January 2025 Yet to be awardedl
Hyde Road Large 15 38 42 42A 42B 42C 74 76 142 147 201 202 203 205 250 253 256 374
Sharston Large 43 50 85 86 101 102 111 143
Stockport Large 11 23 25 191 192 197 314 322 323 325 327 328 330 358 374 378 384
Tameside Large 7 216 217 219 221 230 231 237 336 346
Wythenshawe Large 18 19 150 245 247 263 281 282 284 286 287 313 368 370
Stockport Small 364 364 375
Tameside A Small 335 339 341 342 345 387 396
Tameside B Small 343 356
Trafford Small 44 84 254 260 261 262 280 288

Under Stockport Small, there are two 364 services mentioned.

 

[johncrossley]

All we saw from deregulation was cuts to night busses, so I beg to differ

All we saw pre deregulation was cuts to everything.

You can see that night services were quite comprehensive before 1986 by looking at old timetables on here:

https://www.railwaymedia.co.uk/Timetables/GM001/n-gnh7MF

For example there were night buses seven days a week, between Bolton and Manchester and between Bury and Manchester. Between Whitefield and Manchester and Pendlebury and Manchester they ran the whole night every night, up to half hourly.

GM 8 300684 Reprint 000984.pdf

drive.google.com

GM 35 150382 Reprint 000584.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[RHolmes]

How come the 347 Ashton-under-Lyne to Haughton green is missing from the tameside services in the January 2025 announcement?

Routes that interwork with other services aren’t shown separately

It currently interworks with the 216, 230 and 330

 

[Tim33160]

Think Hyde Rd large contract 374 is a typo for 347??

 

[mancbus]

AREA C January 2025 Yet to be awarded
Hyde Road Large 15 38 42 42A 42B 42C 74 76 142 147 201 202 203 205 250 253 256 374
Sharston Large 43 50 85 86 101 102 111 143
Stockport Large 11 23 25 191 192 197 314 322 323 325 327 328 330 358 374 378 384
Tameside Large 7 216 217 219 221 230 231 237 336 346
Wythenshawe Large 18 19 150 245 247 263 281 282 284 286 287 313 368 370
Stockport Small 364 364 375
Tameside A Small 335 339 341 342 345 387 396
Tameside B Small 343 356
Trafford Small 44 84 254 260 261 262 280 288

How come the 347 Ashton-under-Lyne to Haughton green is missing from the tameside services in the January 2025 announcement?

Also the route 51, 76A, 85A and X50 are also missing

https://www.railwaymedia.co.uk/Timetables/GM001/n-gnh7MF

Yes, rerouted from Castle Hill on 30th July 2000.

Back on topic and the list of franchised routes is a few years old so routes like 312 and 371 in Stockport don't appear. The 347 missing is quite a big omission though and the 103 is also not on the list. I suppose it will all become clear soon enough.

Well when they announce the tranche c next month we will truly know and they might wanna swap around a few routes to different depots or close down depots

 

[jonesy3001]

Also the route 51, 76A, 85A and X50 are also missing


Well when they announce the tranche c next month we will truly know and they might wanna swap around a few routes to different depots or close down depots

The 347 has been a tameside route for over 40yrs, only moved to Hyde Rd after tameside depot on whitelands rd closed in November 1991 and moved back to tameside when stagecoach opened a depot up the road from the old depot on Clarence Street in 2010 after they closed glossop depot.