TfL Emergency Board meeting 9th August re funding crisis

[43066]

State pension age is 66 years, eligibility for free travel / NHS prescriptions do not coincide with state pension age , eligibility is 6 years in advance of state pension age

I’d accept there’s an argument for raising it to match state pension age, especially if there’s evidence it’s costing a significant amount due to older commuters benefiting from it.

As with a lot of benefits for older age groups (eg non means tested winter fuel allowance) it will be politically very difficult to challenge given the demographics of the U.K. population.

 

[Goldfish62]

Hatton Cross included in free Heathrow travel area.
(So is it now possible to exit/enter at Hatton Cross and then use another card to avoid)

If you use two different cards in that way you will be charged the maximum fare twice for two incomplete journeys. And if you're really unlucky you'll be prosecuted for attempted fraud.

 

[Trainbike46]

If you use two different cards in that way you will be charged the maximum fare twice for two incomplete journeys. And if you're really unlucky you'll be prosecuted for attempted fraud.

How would that happen if you tap in in zone 1, tap out at hatton cross, tap in again with another card, and then tap out at Heathrow? Doesn't sound like fraud to me, tbh

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you use two different cards in that way you will be charged the maximum fare twice for two incomplete journeys. And if you're really unlucky you'll be prosecuted for attempted fraud.

Not if you actually leave the station and re-enter, it's just two journeys. Fare avoidance, not evasion. The use of two cards is to avoid it being picked up as an out of station interchange.

 

[Starmill]

I think that the key reason why it feels so unfair to discuss these issues around free travel before the state pension age is that our current rules leave us working too long and receiving retirements too short. The new state pension is only designed to give approximately 13 years of payment, and yet the rate it pays is still rubbish. Also there are previously announced plans to raise it in line with forecast life expectancy increases which are now unlikely to materialise.

It's an especially difficult thing to do anything about though, because it's so difficult to arrange compensation for someone who retired later before the rules were then changed. Perhaps one solution would be for the government to commit for 40 years to keeping the age fixed at 66. In exchange, the benefits such as free bus or tram travel could be harmonised nationwide. A further concession such as a guarantee of 50% discount on off peak rail tickets within your local area would be much better than the current patchwork mess of rail provision also.

 

[Goldfish62]

How would that happen if you tap in in zone 1, tap out at hatton cross, tap in again with another card, and then tap out at Heathrow? Doesn't sound like fraud to me, tbh

I see what you mean! Yes, you'd save a couple of quid in the off-peak if you don't mind stepping back a train and going through the gateline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How would that happen if you tap in in zone 1, tap out at hatton cross, tap in again with another card, and then tap out at Heathrow? Doesn't sound like fraud to me, tbh

It's not. It's no different from splitting tickets on the mainline, albeit with a bit of inconvenience to exit and re-enter the station.

 

[Mojo]

I wonder what Heathrow Airport Limited thinks about Hatton + being added to the free travel zone for people starting or finishing journeys (rather than just for interchange as it was previously)? Quite a good way to avoid their £5 terminal drop off fee.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder what Heathrow Airport Limited thinks about Hatton + being added to the free travel zone for people starting or finishing journeys (rather than just for interchange as it was previously)? Quite a good way to avoid their £5 terminal drop off fee.

The £5 terminal drop off fee obviously makes money for Heathrow Airport but there are easier ways to avoid it than going to Hatton Cross, where there is no straightforward place to drop off or wait. Isn't there a free facility to drop off in one of the outer car parks?

 

[AM9]

Under 18 years of age, you are legally a minor with certain privileges and exemptions, over 66 (current State Pension age) you are a senior citizen with certain privileges, a state pension and exemptions,. In between 18 and 66, there is little difference, you are simply of adult age. Somehow, certain privileges have been granted to a section of the adult age span, the 60 - 65 age group, but not to the 18 to 59 age span, from 60 we receive free NHS prescriptions, free public transport travel privileges and probably a few more others may raise. In practical terms it is a form of age discrimination.
I find that hard to justify. If anyone needs a helping hand, it is the 30 to 40 age group, they are the group with the financial burdens, mortgages, children etc, why have our politicians created such a system of discrimination?

Actually it's a form of benefit to certain age groups, nobody is discriminating against that repressed minority the 18-59s. As far as free riding on buses, (and other modes within the TfL area) relatively few of those holding passes use them continuously, and of course there are many who don't even apply for a pass, - instead, they jump in their car and add to the pollution and congestion on urban roads.

As far as prescriptions go, records over several decades demonstrate that the need for certain prescription-only medication increases rapidly in the 60+ age groups, - even among those who have lived responsible and healthy lifestyles. Of course, those working 60-66 year olds also pay tax on their earnings, so they are contributing to the 18-59s benefits including child support and school costs, - they don't get a discount for those privileges thet they would never benefit from.
Maybe you will need such assistance when you reach 60 so it isn't a good idea pushing for their removal because you might need the benefits one day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The £5 terminal drop off fee obviously makes money for Heathrow Airport but there are easier ways to avoid it than going to Hatton Cross, where there is no straightforward place to drop off or wait. Isn't there a free facility to drop off in one of the outer car parks?

It'll be interesting to see if Thameslink start charging for pick up/drop off at Parkway once the shuttle operates at Luton. That said, Avanti don't at Birmingham International, and that's been a useful workaround to it there for years (plus the actual parking is cheaper than at the airport, I don't think it's rail users only but if it was a return to the next stop would do the job).

I think few enough people bother trying to avoid those charges that it's not worth worrying about. Just as hardly anybody will bother tapping out and back in at Hatton Cross to avoid this.

 

[Mojo]

The £5 terminal drop off fee obviously makes money for Heathrow Airport but there are easier ways to avoid it than going to Hatton Cross, where there is no straightforward place to drop off or wait. Isn't there a free facility to drop off in one of the outer car parks?

Yes I suppose there is that too; half hour free in one of the outer car parks. Last time I needed a drop off we just pulled upto the barrier in the business parking & went to the pods.

Hatton + has a lay-by outside and as standard for all car parks there is also a small grace period you can enter the official parking before leaving again.

It'll be interesting to see if Thameslink start charging for pick up/drop off at Parkway once the shuttle operates at Luton. That said, Avanti don't at Birmingham International, and that's been a useful workaround to it there for years (plus the actual parking is cheaper than at the airport, I don't think it's rail users only but if it was a return to the next stop would do the job).

I think few enough people bother trying to avoid those charges that it's not worth worrying about. Just as hardly anybody will bother tapping out and back in at Hatton Cross to avoid this.

I suppose the situation with Luton Airport is that you have to pay for the shuttle anyway, so whilst it saves money if there’s only one person, it isn’t completely free.

Luton does also quite widely advertise it’s alternative to the £5 fee, which is the mid stay car park and still walkable to the airport and completely free.

 

[bramling]

Yes, the anti London resentment and moaning often encountered on these threads is extraordinary. As a Londoner I’d be very happy with that £38bn being redirected to benefit the city that actually generated it…

I know it’s not really viable in the real world, however one thing I really wish was different about this country is the disposition of spending between different areas, including NI, Scotland and Wales relative to England. If spending per head was equal everywhere then we would be spared all the constant moaning, not least from those places who still manage to moan even when they do pretty well, chief of all the devolved areas. For a relatively small country we seem to have the most bizarre setup.

 

[stuu]

I know it’s not really viable in the real world, however one thing I really wish was different about this country is the disposition of spending between different areas, including NI, Scotland and Wales relative to England. If spending per head was equal everywhere then we would be spared all the constant moaning, not least from those places who still manage to moan even when they do pretty well, chief of all the devolved areas. For a relatively small country we seem to have the most bizarre setup.

It's actually fairly flat, when you take total expenditure, not just something selective like public transport expenditure. The ONS has a nice graphic here - Fig 1.

The figures for tax revenue per head are interesting too

 

[Starmill]

It's actually fairly flat, when you take total expenditure, not just something selective like public transport expenditure. The ONS has a nice graphic here - Fig 1.

The figures for tax revenue per head are interesting too

It's almost as if the current system od devolved funding arrangements is actually designed to try to keep it flat eh!

 

[bramling]

It's actually fairly flat, when you take total expenditure, not just something selective like public transport expenditure. The ONS has a nice graphic here - Fig 1.

The spending per head figures are quite revealing though, especially considering the four areas who occupy the top four positions.

 

[Trainbike46]

The spending per head figures are quite revealing though, especially considering the four areas who occupy the top four positions.

London, NI, Scotland and Wales, right?

Those areas being the highest isn't at all surprising:

-London is very expensive to live in, so providing the same public services is more expensive there (+by far the highest tax revenues per head, so it's not like they're leeching of the rest of the UK)
-Scotland has its own, higher Scottish tax, so it's only fair they get to spend the extra money there as well
-NI is a bit of a mess, for example seen by the fact it's got by far the lowest employment rate of people aged 16-64 at 69.7% (UK average is 75.5%). The public services we get for that spending are noticably worse than those in England or Scotland (I can't really compare with Wales as I've never lived there).