TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[PeterY]

I do feel a sad that the travelcard is disappearing. I used to love spending a day travelling around London, without time or route restrictions.

 

[cactustwirly]

So with this proposal there is no way of buying a paper ticket for Taplow to Tottenham Court Road for example?

So how does someone with a child travel on such a service if oyster isn't accepted at Taplow and paper tickets aren't accepted at Tottenham Court Road?

 

[redreni]

So with this proposal there is no way of buying a paper ticket for Taplow to Tottenham Court Road for example?

So how does someone with a child travel on such a service if oyster isn't accepted at Taplow and paper tickets aren't accepted at Tottenham Court Road?

You could use contactless or buy a paper ticket to London Underground zones 1-2 . I expect the ticket machine at Taplow will offer you that ticket if you select Tottenham Court Road as your destination.

That ticket would be valid either for the direct journey on the Elizabeth Line or via a change at Paddington, and you could go to any underground station in zone 1 or 2 using any underground line, or more than one line as required (but it's a return ticket not a travelcard, so you have to pick a destination and go there, you couldn't break your journey and resume).

If the child is under 11 they can travel with you free irrespective of whether you use contactless or a paper ticket.

 

[CyrusWuff]

They can get an Oyster and load it with the value of the daily cap using cash.

Which, since 4th September 2022, adds an additional non-refundable fee of £7 per person to the price if they don't already have an Oyster card and can't use CPAY.

 

[Magdalia]

I have come late to this. I'm old enough to remember back to before the NSE launch, how Capitalcard/travelcard transformed railway travel and how it contributed to the transformation of the London economy more generally. I thought I'd start with some quotes from Chris Green in his book The Network SouthEast Story.

The very first off-peak initiative was introduced one day after the launch and proved to be an absolute barnstormer. It was the new One Day Capitalcard, which was to become the biggest source of new income in NSE's history. Its secret was its simplicity - it filled a need and was instantly understandable from its name. More than half of commuters were using Capitalcard Seasons by 1986 and everyone understood the concept of paying a small supplement to gain unlimited off-peak travel on London's buses and tubes.

The new One Day Capitalcards grew at a phenomenal rate on the back of a strong economy. It is hard now to remember the impact that this simple new product had on travel habits in London - everyone suddenly seemed to be travelling up to London between the peaks.

18 million One Day Capitalcards were sold in the first full year - and 20% of the passengers attracted had never used rail before.

I was quite happy to pay for a travelcard every time even if I wasn't going to get full value from it, just so I didn't have to keep all these things in my head when I'm supposed to be enjoying myself.

Even if it was crystal clear what all the fares and caps are, you've no idea if you're *actually* going to be charged the right price until 'later', and if you haven't for whatever reason, you're in for a delightfully fun time trying to get someone to sort it out.

This demonstrates how the simplicity of travelcard will be lost. Many people from outside London swan around London on their travelcards, knowing little and caring less about PAYG and caps. Some will carry on travelling, including those that can swan around London using contactless payment without any concern for how much they have spent, and those that can be bothered to get their heads round TfL's fare system. But others will think "too difficult" and do something else instead, or stay at home.

The cost of a Travelcard from Reading to London with Travelcard is £29.60. With Railcard discount, this is £19.50.

The cost of a return without travelcard is £24, £15.80 with Railcard.

A daily zones 1-2 cap is £8.10. It has been said that majority of people who travel to London for the day are around zones 1-2.

So the 'new cost' of traveling to London with PAYG would be £32.10 and £23.90 with Railcard. These prices also do not take account of next years price rises.

And this demonstrates how the change will lead to more cost for those travelling in from outside London. In the "cost of living crisis" that means many people saving money by not making discretionary trips if the cost goes up too much.

There also seems to be ignorance within TfL as to the tourism/economic boost for providing cheaper travelcard fares from outside London as part of a combined ticket.

I don't know if there is ignorance but I do wonder what assessment has been made of the negative economic impact, not just on TfL, but also on the ex NSE TOCs and on the London economy more generally, especially the tourism and hospitality industries.

That doesn't just apply to the discretionary day trips, it also applies to people coming into London on business. I was commuting in the 1980s and remember how Capitalcard transformed my social life. Before Capitalcard I usually went home directly from work, after Capitalcard I went to concerts in the evening, or had evenings out with friends in pubs that were mutually convenient for our homeward journeys. Lots of people in London for business will revert to heading for home after the business is done, without stopping to spend money in the London economy.

If travelcards are withdrawn then I would expect a similar impact on travel to that described by Chris Green, but in the opposite direction, and a big hit on tourism and hospitality in London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which, since 4th September 2022, adds an additional non-refundable fee of £7 per person to the price if they don't already have an Oyster card and can't use CPAY.

A one off fee. How many people go to London once ever?

OK, probably some overseas tourists who have paid several hundred quid for their trip at least, often over a thousand, and so aren't going to baulk at £7.

Don't let's wheel the RUK Standard Minority out, it is really quite unhelpful to this sort of discussion. If it's a given that this will go ahead, which it seems it is, then we move onto how to mitigate the situation for real world use cases. And the mitigation for someone who likes paying cash is to get an Oyster and put the necessary amount of money onto it paying by cash, just as every London bus user in that position has for over ten years.

If travelcards are withdrawn then I would expect a similar impact on travel to that described by Chris Green, but in the opposite direction, and a big hit on tourism and hospitality in London.

I would expect pretty much no hit whatsoever, to be honest. Possibly a small hit on TfL themselves if some people travelling in groups who don't want to use contactless choose to just get around using Uber, perhaps (which is quite good value for a group of 3 or 4), but not a massive one.

That book was written in the days when it was Travelcard or faff around buying a paper single each time. We've moved on from that. Judging by the number of e-tickets you see being scanned at Euston 8-11 gateline, I suspect a fairly large number of people have already switched.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I am really disappointed and angry about this and shall be putting pressure on my own elected representatives and anywhere else I could find to see if there isn't a way of getting a new agreement in place so that the travel card product is not injured as a result. But if they insist on doing this then they need to seriously up there game in terms of accommodating those of us with rail cards or other travel discounts. The number of stations that can't or won't add railcards to Oyster and who in many cases do it incorrectly for holders of disabled rail carbs is astronomical and now that national rail booking offices we're still available are not able to do it either it absolutely 100% needs addressing. There must be a way of associating a contactless card with a rail card by using some kind of app

 

[crablab]

The big issue with Oyster, if you now have to go back to using it to get the Railcard discount, is the inability to split ticket without getting off the train and going through a gateline.

If you arrive on a EL train to Paddington low level from anywhere outside of the Oyster zone (eg. Maidenhead) where you would be buying a ticket to London Terminals, you now have to interrupt your journey and leave the train, exit the gateline on your paper ticket, re-enter on Oyster and then continue.

The other option would be a ticket to Z1-2 but that's not necessarily what people want if they're going further or need to make multiple journeys.

Yes, this is planned to be fixed *in the future*. But that doesn't help now, and doesn't guarantee that it'll ever actually be completed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am really disappointed and angry about this and shall be putting pressure on my own elected representatives and anywhere else I could find to see if there isn't a way of getting a new agreement in place so that the travel card product is not injured as a result. But if they insist on doing this then they need to seriously up there game in terms of accommodating those of us with rail cards or other travel discounts. The number of stations that can't or won't add railcards to Oyster and who in many cases do it incorrectly for holders of disabled rail carbs is astronomical and now that national rail booking offices we're still available are not able to do it either it absolutely 100% needs addressing. There must be a way of associating a contactless card with a rail card by using some kind of app

To be honest I don't wholly understand why TfL needs to accept Railcards for non-National Rail services, or indeed at all, and wonder if that too might sneakily disappear at some point. I'm not aware of any plan for, e.g., TfGM to give Railcard discounts on tram fares, and they're near enough not a thing on Merseyside either, and in neither case has there been any shouting about it.

 

[crablab]

I don't wholly understand why TfL needs to accept Railcards for non-National Rail services, or indeed at all, and wonder if that too might sneakily disappear at some point.

If it's going to be implemented as part of Project Oval, which it'll need to be if they want to withdraw paper tickets in that area, it might as well be enabled for TfL services I guess. I imagine explaining that the discount does apply to Overground, EL and Thameslink Core services but nothing else might be the wrong precedent for TfL to set (as it demonstrates the difference between NR and TfL services, so strengthens the argument for things like BoJ on those services).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it's going to be implemented as part of Project Oval, which it'll need to be if they want to withdraw paper tickets in that area, it might as well be enabled for TfL services I guess. I imagine explaining that the discount does apply to Overground, EL and Thameslink Core services but nothing else might be the wrong precedent for TfL to set (as it demonstrates the difference between NR and TfL services, so strengthens the argument for things like BoJ on those services).

Nobody is withdrawing paper tickets, nor is there any plan to do so. Just Travelcards. They might switch to being e-tickets on till roll, though.

 

[Magdalia]

Judging by the number of e-tickets you see being scanned at Euston 8-11 gateline, I suspect a fairly large number of people have already switched.

They are these people:

those that can swan around London using contactless payment without any concern for how much they have spent, and those that can be bothered to get their heads round TfL's fare system.

You are right that they will carry on as before but they don't cause the economic hit.


It is these people who cause the economic hit:

But others will think "too difficult" and do something else instead, or stay at home.

In the "cost of living crisis" that means many people saving money by not making discretionary trips if the cost goes up too much.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I very much doubt anyone will think "too difficult".

The conversation at the booking office (while they exist) will go thus:
Passenger: Return to London with the Underground please*
Clerk: Sorry, we don't do that any more, but I can do you a return to London?
Passenger: What do I do when I get there?
Clerk: You're paying by card right?**
Passenger: Yeah.
Clerk: Just tap it on the barriers on the Tube as you go in and out and it'll work out what to charge you.
Passenger: OK, fine. Just to London then
<transaction is completed>

They aren't going to go "forget that" and go home.

It is more faff if you've got kids (and I do think TfL need to make it easier there, e.g. just to order a half fare Oyster online to be posted to your home with credit already loaded, if they don't already), but in reality as word goes out there'll be the one off faff of getting an Oyster Zip and that'll be that.

* This is what almost everyone asks for - the term "Travelcard" isn't as widely known as you might think
** Typically those who only use cash are not big spenders and while the extra faff may be annoying to them they won't have a big impact on the economy.

 

[Deerfold]

And the mitigation for someone who likes paying cash is to get an Oyster and put the necessary amount of money onto it paying by cash, just as every London bus user in that position has for over ten years.

Unless they've bought Bus and Tram Day tickets at £6 a day - cheaper than using a weekly ticket if travelling 4 days or fewer a week (but 75p more expensive than PAYG or Oyster daily caps).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless they've bought Bus and Tram Day tickets at £6 a day - cheaper than using a weekly ticket if travelling 4 days or fewer a week (but 75p more expensive than PAYG or Oyster daily caps).

Ah yes, forgot those still existed. But they aren't applicable to most "outsiders" who will want to use the Tube. Indeed, it seems to me that the vast majority of Travelcard users just see them as Tube tickets. In which case, notably, just offering a "One Day Tube Pass*" from the TVM at a suitable price would probably tick off their needs too.

The vast, vast majority of visitors to London don't use non TfL modes other than getting there in the first place, and a lot of them won't even get that Travelcards have that validity.

* Or one of the old LT Cards valid on TfL modes only, I suppose.

 

[johncrossley]

Unless they've bought Bus and Tram Day tickets at £6 a day

Do many people buy that ticket? I don't think I've ever seen one! Going to the shop to buy the ticket each day would surely get tiring before long. I suppose we had to get used to doing that once the scratch off bus passes were withdrawn but that was a long time ago. I suppose a few people still do that for Day Travelcards.

 

[heathrowrail]

Everyone seems to be blaming the Mayor when in reality the Government have given him no choice.

He is compelled to make specific savings and this includes the lost revenue of £40m from travelcards and it seems the RDG were not forthcoming on this hence we now have a stand off until a settlement happens. The Government will not help as they can use this to blame the Mayor & Labour party for something that they have actually created. Politics!

Actually if you read his letter, Sadiq Khan says that the travelcards don't have to be scrapped provided the DFT or RDG come up with a may to make it work. So instead of trying to make it work with them he's gone down the fake public consultation and blackmail route which is a typical Khan he always has to have his own way!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually if you read his letter, Sadiq Khan says that the travelcards don't have to be scrapped provided the DFT or RDG come up with a may to make it work. So instead of trying to make it work with them he's gone down the fake public consultation and blackmail route which is a typical Khan he always has to have his own way!

There is an easy solution to be fair - increase the prices so they are all priced at the relevant daily cap plus a BZ6 to origin return, then pay TfL the full cap price for each passenger. That'd make them expensive, so many would still choose to use contactless, but would mean TfL were losing no income and it'd not cost the TOCs anything either, they'd get the BZ6 fare plus the normal cut from the Travelcard bit. And those who like the simplicity would probably be willing to pay to retain it.

 

[heathrowrail]

There is an easy solution to be fair - increase the prices so they are all priced at the relevant daily cap plus a BZ6 to origin return, then pay TfL the full cap price for each passenger. That'd make them expensive, so many would still choose to use contactless, but would mean TfL were losing no income and it'd not cost the TOCs anything either, they'd get the BZ6 fare plus the normal cut from the Travelcard bit. And those who like the simplicity would probably be willing to pay to retain it.

Completely agree a simple solution which I'm sure the public and most TOCs would be fine with. But as usual nothing is simple in this country, especially when it's political.

 

[matt_world2004]

I think the issue is the reimbursement is done on a per mile basis. So if your making a 29.5 mile journey on the train and a half a mile journey on the bus. The bus is getting 1/60th of that travelcard revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Completely agree a simple solution which I'm sure the public and most TOCs would be fine with. But as usual nothing is simple in this country, especially when it's political.

I wonder if there's actually pressure to increase TOC income too, i.e. for them to get the full London return fare rather than just return to BZ6 plus the smaller Travelcard cut.

There's no other reason I can see, bar politics, for DfT to block simply increasing the fares so TfL is no longer losing anything. And if they want rid of magstripe readers, just switch to issuing them on ITSO, it's noted above that doing this is already possible.

I think the issue is the reimbursement is done on a per mile basis. So if your making a 29.5 mile journey on the train and a half a mile journey on the bus. The bus is getting 1/60th of that travelcard revenue.

That's not how it works. Indeed it can't be how it works, because there is no record of when an individual Travelcard user boards or alights a bus. It isn't even possible to do that with Oyster, because alighting is not recorded.

 

[crablab]

Nobody is withdrawing paper tickets, nor is there any plan to do so. Just Travelcards. They might switch to being e-tickets on till roll, though.

eTickets on TfL gatelines seem unlikely when TfL don't like the technology, won't bear the cost of installing it and consider it a NR problem to solve.

And I was speaking more generally - there is a clear industry move towards withdrawing CCST. Providing solutions like contactless in the Project Oval area is a step towards realising that.

That's not how it works. Indeed it can't be how it works, because there is no record of when an individual Travelcard user boards or alights.

I don't think the calculations are public, but the revenue allocation is based on a 'Travelcard Diary' which is a sample of users recording their trips on a piece of paper (like a paper Interrail), done as a statistical exercise every once in a while.

 

[Bletchleyite]

eTickets seem unlikely when TfL don't like the technology, won't bear the cost of installing it and consider it a NR problem.

And I was speaking more generally - there is a clear industry move towards withdrawing CCST. Providing solutions like contactless in the Project Oval area is a step towards realising that.

Paper tickets will not be withdrawn in the Project Oval area. E-tickets, including ones printed on till roll, will remain for NR journeys.

TfL themselves have not even withdrawn them, though they are punitively priced.

It's important not to bring things that aren't happening into this discussion, a bit like it's important to understand that closing ticket offices isn't part of a grand conspiracy/plan for a central bank digital currency and all that conspiratorial jazz.

 

[matt_world2004]

That's not how it works. Indeed it can't be how it works, because there is no record of when an individual Travelcard user boards or alights a bus. It isn't even possible to do that with Oyster, because alighting is not recorded.

It's based on a travelcard survey

 

[JonathanH]

Paper tickets will not be withdrawn in the Project Oval area. E-tickets, including ones printed on till roll, will remain for NR journeys.

TfL themselves have not even withdrawn them, though they are punitively priced.

Indeed, the model followed within Zone 1 to 6 seems the obvious step to retain paper tickets, but at a punitive price. It worked in London, with very little grumbling. However, that seems like something for Phase 2, particularly if there is significant uptake for Contactless on the Phase 1 routes.

 

[crablab]

Paper tickets will not be withdrawn in the Project Oval area. E-tickets, including ones printed on till roll, will remain for NR journeys.

Sure, for now.

It's important not to bring things that aren't happening into this discussion, a bit like it's important to understand that closing ticket offices isn't part of a grand conspiracy/plan for a central bank digital currency and all that conspiratorial jazz.

I entirely agree, but I think your (apparent?) suggestion that withdrawal of CCST isn't the desire of the industry based on the move towards PRT, digital ticketing and contactless, is a bit like sticking one's head in the sand.

It's a statement of fact: the industry would like to move towards digital ticketing. This is even a topic in the 'Great British Railways: Williams-Shapps plan for rail' document! No conspiracy here.

However, that seems like something for Phase 2, particularly if there is significant uptake for Contactless on the Phase 1 routes.

Exactly. This is the point I'm making - contactless is one method of offering "mode shift" to better ticketing options, so the archaic CCST (and associated specification from the 70s/80s) can be withdrawn. Ultimately. In a long time I expect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, the model followed within Zone 1 to 6 seems the obvious step to retain paper tickets, but at a punitive price. It worked in London, with very little grumbling. However, that seems like something for Phase 2, particularly if there is significant uptake for Contactless on the Phase 1 routes.

One thing that might happen would be for the only paper tickets sold to be Anytime Day Singles, but I'm not sure they will go that far, because the ticketing infrastructure (TVMs etc) will still need to exist for train journeys going the other way e.g. to Birmingham.

Exactly. This is the point I'm making - contactless is one method of offering "mode shift" to better ticketing options, so the archaic CCST (and associated specification from the 70s/80s) can be withdrawn. Ultimately. In a long time I expect.

CCST is likely to go fairly soon - all it really requires is to deal with the cross London problem. But CCST is not the only form of non-PAYG ticketing.

 

[matt_world2004]

I
That's not how it works. Indeed it can't be how it works, because there is no record of when an individual Travelcard user boards or alights a bus. It isn't even possible to do that with Oyster, because alighting is not rerecorded.

According to the press release it is

The proposal to withdraw Day Travelcards is having to be considered because of requirements in government funding settlements, necessitated by the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on TfL’s finances. It is estimated that the proposal would generate approximately £40m per year for TfL. At present, the revenue from Day Travelcards sales is shared between TfL and the TOCs who are operating services in London, and are parties to the Travelcard Agreement. It is apportioned according to the distance travelled on each party’s services within zones 1-6.

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to the press release it is

It can't be because there isn't a record of that!

It might be via a survey as you say, but that's not quite the same and would suggest that it might be possible to tweak that in a way it would be harder if it was being calculated that way.

But that aside, you could even price the things as a return to London Terminals plus the daily cap if it's a problem, then the TOC would get none of the daily cap component. Yes, that'd be getting very pricey (though you could reduce the cost by offering a Zone 1-2 version too, which would suit most peoples' needs), but there's no reason you can't have pricey tickets if people want to buy them - after all, people buy 14 Day First Class All Line Rovers, despite for most use cases it being likely cheaper to book Advances for the desired trips.

 

[matt_world2004]

It can't be because there isn't a record of that!

It might be via a survey as you say, but that's not the same.

Well it kind of is. Get a representative sample of travel and you can pretty accurately get a revenue split down each mode.