TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[reddragon]

TfL are claiming RDG were not forthcoming.

We only have their side of the story at the moment. It's entirely possible that RDG will turn round and go "TfL are talking rubbish."

I'm sure TfL wouldn't slander RDG?

That's RDG who represent the train operators who can't agree to reduced revenue without government agreement.

So the Government have tied the hands of TfL & RDG making a solution impossible?

 

[Hadders]

Reading twitter it seems not being able to add a (network) railcard to contactless is a real problem for people on the GWML west of paddington. It's quite a jump not having that, and the alternative with the elizabeth line is buying a normal return with NR discount, then at paddington going up the escalators, using the ticket to exit and then reentering with contactless/oyster which is a poor solution to get some saving.

TfL think you can add a Network Railcard to Oyster, although I suspect this in an error on their part!

See my earlier post:

TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

There is a consultation running until 23rd May at https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/travelcards and perhaps we should all put in our two pennyworth. The end date of the "engagement" has been extended by two weeks to 6th June.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[MikeWM]

What an unsurprising but rubbish decision. Maybe it will make some more money for TfL from some quarters, but they'll definitely be getting a lot less from me from next year onwards.

 

[jon81uk]

This announced the day after Labour failed to win a crucial by election in Uxbridge, partially down to Sadiq Kahn's record as mayor. It's almost as if Labour don't want the support of Londoners...

Most people affected by the withdrawal of the one day travel card and the expansion of ULEZ are not Londoners and can't vote for the mayor. The travelcard issue is about people coming in from outside of London currently paying less than Londoners who mainly use contactless/Oyster.

 

[GodAtum]

How will this affect me? If I'm going for a day out in London from Lewes I buy an off-peak travelcard (Lewes to Zones 1-6 for £26.95). What do I do now?

 

[paul1609]

I'm sure TfL wouldn't slander RDG?


So the Government have tied the hands of TfL & RDG making a solution impossible?

If you don't already, Id recommend reading Roger Fords articles on the rail industry's P & L account in Modern Railways. From a pro rail prospective he more or less comes to the conclusion that the Government is right that the current funding is unsustainable. More taxpayers money to sort out Londons public transport woes is quite rightly not on the table.

 

[SWT_USER]

Most people affected by the withdrawal of the one day travel card and the expansion of ULEZ are not Londoners and can't vote for the mayor. The travelcard issue is about people coming in from outside of London currently paying less than Londoners who mainly use contactless/Oyster.

There must be a fair few londoners with a Network Railcard though who would use paper tickets for a discount.

Great news that TFL are saying this discount can now be added to an Oyster though, that was my only objection to the proposal (yes I know this won't be the case in reality).

 

[JonathanH]

There must be a fair few londoners with a Network Railcard though who would use paper tickets for a discount.

Not much use for an inboundary off-peak day travelcard other than at the weekend.

Even at the weekend, the Network Railcard discount on a Travelcard only provides a saving for passengers travelling beyond the boundary of Zone 3, and for Zone 4 that discount is only £1.70 - eg Zone 1-4 cap is £11.70, and the discounted travelcard is £10.00.

Whichever way you look at it, this change really is of no consequence to most Londoners whatsoever.

 

[Hadders]

How will this affect me? If I'm going for a day out in London from Lewes I buy an off-peak travelcard (Lewes to Zones 1-6 for £26.95). What do I do now?

You buy a return to London Terinals and use Oyster or contactless PAYG to travel around London.

 

[davews]

The costings definitely ignore that you cannot add a railcard to contactless - and with the significant cost of an Oyster after the recent changes and the hassle of getting a railcard added to that Oyster is not cost effective for occasional travellers. I consider my 2 or 3 trips per month to London as casual.
I do various trips, usually walking in various places. Travelcard is the simplest. Occasionally I can do a variation of say return to Richmond and a couple of contactless. But if I start and finish at different NR stations it can get complicated with questionable break of journeys. Overall it will cost me significantly if I have to use contactless for z3 and beyond trips.

 

[Hadders]

There must be a fair few londoners with a Network Railcard though who would use paper tickets for a discount.

7,275,604 outboundary travelcards were sold by TOCs between April 2022 and February 2023
4,470,515 of these were issued with a railcard discount
1,103,197 of these railcard discounted travelcards had a Network Railcard (only beaten by the 16-25 railcard which was 1,380,981

A further 2,259,634 Travelcards were sold by 3rd party retailers but a breakdown of railcards is not given
1,124,100 Travelcards were sold by TfL within Zones 1-6, again there's no railcard breakdown

Source: https://www.london.gov.uk/media/101985/download

Great news that TFL are saying this discount can now be added to an Oyster though, that was my only objection to the proposal (yes I know this won't be the case in reality).

Sadly, I suspect this is an error.

Whichever way you look at it, this change really is of no consequence to most Londoners whatsoever.

I agree that it's not really an issue for people within London but on the wider issue I do think that The Mayor of London and TfL need to understand that London has a special responsibility in that it is our capital city, and they should make sure that London is easy for people to access from other parts of the country.

I'm not saying that the cost of Travelcards shouldn't be looked at - in some cases it can be argued that they are too cheap but to remove a fully integrated public transport ticket is just stupid. I'm not against making Travelcards exclusively available on ITSO (so journeys could be tracked and money divided up appropriately across TfL and TOCs), I'm also not against the wider roll out of Project Oval as long as railcards can be incorporated. But complete removal seem bizarre and political, rather than what's best for passengers.

 

[paul1609]

How will this affect me? If I'm going for a day out in London from Lewes I buy an off-peak travelcard (Lewes to Zones 1-6 for £26.95). What do I do now?

To be honest if you are going to Central London and are prepared to walk say 1/2 mile from the station from Lewes and a lot of Southern/ Southeastern stations there isn't much you can't reach with a straight ticket to London Terminals or Thameslink.

 

[Kite159]

How will this affect me? If I'm going for a day out in London from Lewes I buy an off-peak travelcard (Lewes to Zones 1-6 for £26.95). What do I do now?

Depends on what you are doing in London, then probably a day return to East Croydon to exit the train there to switch over to oyster/contactless. At least that will minimise the overlap (unlike for someone coming from Stevenage who will effectively be paying for Hadley Wood - Finsbury Park/London twice)

 

[Hadders]

I have to say that the responses to the Engagement Process from RDG and Trainline are really rather good.
Even the DfT waded in but unfortunately only the first page of their submission has been released.

All the replies are available on this link:

https://www.london.gov.uk/media/101985/download

 

[David Goddard]

Another bad outcome. Would happily pay a (little) bit more for the Travelcard if it meant that it could stay.
Just £1 on each one would seemingly raise £10m per annum, if that's what the issue is.

Even if TfL wont accept them any more, continued acceptance on NR services would be beneficial, yes the sales would still drop but they would have their uses if you need to get to the other side of London from where you start (for example if I wanted to go from Reading via Paddington, on to Croydon, then via Wimbledon before heading back). Would have to pay separately for the bus trip across the centre but at least the rest could be integrated, plus also the NR zonal area could be reviewed (and divorced from TfLs) to actually include some of the "just outside" areas like Dartford and Shepperton.

 

[swt_passenger]

I’m sorry if it’s already been explained, but what happens to outboundary season travelcards? If they’re still being retained, does that mean the cut TFL get from them is considered acceptable?

 

[alholmes]

I’m sorry if it’s already been explained, but what happens to outboundary season travelcards? If they’re still being retained, does that mean the cut TFL get from them is considered acceptable?

No change. This only affects one-day travelcards.

 

[matt_world2004]

I’m sorry if it’s already been explained, but what happens to outboundary season travelcards? If they’re still being retained, does that mean the cut TFL get from them is considered acceptable?

It may mean the cost benefit analysis damages the viability of removing it .if a big economic concern in London is people working from home and not buying their prets doing something to incentivse that may harm london economically.

 

[redreni]

Most people affected by the withdrawal of the one day travel card and the expansion of ULEZ are not Londoners and can't vote for the mayor. The travelcard issue is about people coming in from outside of London currently paying less than Londoners who mainly use contactless/Oyster.

Yes although if you live in zone 6 the difference, at weekends, between the daily cap (£14.90) and a Network Railcard-discounted inboundary Z1-6 day Travelcard (£10) is quite yawning and sufficient, depending on the parking restrictions in the place you want to go (which are generally pretty lax at weekends, especially Sundays), to deter me from using public transport if I don't wish to have a drink. People from outside London are also going to bring in their cars for similar reasons. I understand the difficulty created by the government's ideological refusal to compensate TfL for lost revenue during Covid in the same way as private sector train, bus and coach operators were. It is, however, the sort of policy one might recommend to a Mayor if he said he wanted to sabotage his own policy of cleaning up London's air.

 

[SWT_USER]

Not much use for an inboundary off-peak day travelcard other than at the weekend.

Even at the weekend, the Network Railcard discount on a Travelcard only provides a saving for passengers travelling beyond the boundary of Zone 3, and for Zone 4 that discount is only £1.70 - eg Zone 1-4 cap is £11.70, and the discounted travelcard is £10.00.

Whichever way you look at it, this change really is of no consequence to most Londoners whatsoever.

Beneficial for those in zones 5/6 though. If I'm going to anywhere other than the south bank (when I would use Ashford) I use Heathrow T4 so the discounted travelcard is actually cheaper than a day return most of the time.

 

[redreni]

Not much use for an inboundary off-peak day travelcard other than at the weekend.

Even at the weekend, the Network Railcard discount on a Travelcard only provides a saving for passengers travelling beyond the boundary of Zone 3, and for Zone 4 that discount is only £1.70 - eg Zone 1-4 cap is £11.70, and the discounted travelcard is £10.00.

Whichever way you look at it, this change really is of no consequence to most Londoners whatsoever.

It's certainly a minority, but the impact if you live in the outer zones can be pretty severe and there are more than one or two of us.

Before the pandemic this would have been of no consequence to me because I had a season ticket so there was no extra charge for travelling at the weekend. Now that I only commute 2 days a week, however, using public transport in London at the weekend is discretionary (I can stay at home or drive) and the Network Railcard discount is a big factor in any decision to do so.

I live in zone 6. It's a 49% increase if I switch to non-discounted PAYG. Unless I specifically intend to get drunk, I'm not going to do that, I'm going to drive.

TfL seem to think that Network Railcards and Two Togather Railcards can be added to Oyster.....

MD3142 Withdrawal of Day Travelcards on TfL Network

MD3142 Withdrawal of Day Travelcards on TfL Network

www.london.gov.uk

The way I read this (and I could be wrong) this is assuring the Mayor that should he make the recommended decision (scrapping day travelcards, effectively), then customers would be able to add their Railcard discount (for all the Railcard types listed) to Oyster. They already can with some of them, of course.
edit: I am wrong: After reading this it clearly states at 1.45 that railcard discounts can already be added to Oyster. It said this in the consultation document and I responded to tell them this wasn't true of Network Railcards and to ask them if this would be addressed, but received no response. It looks like TfL officials ignored the consultation responses and then gave BS advice to the Mayor.

I don't think it says they already can add all the listed Railcard discounts to Oyster (although next time I'm at Abbey Wood ticket office I fully intend to try to get them to add my Network Railcard and see what happens, showing them a print-out of this document as evidence that they should). But it only says the current entitlement is for discounts off paper travelcards, with the oyster discount being something that would be possible if/when the decision is implemented, so I would say they've got until January to put this in place where it isn't in place already.

They need to do some coding so that, on weekdays after 10am, oyster charges the lesser of (a) the non-discounted fare or (b) the greater of two thirds the standard fare or £13. Same with daily caps. And presumably with weekly caps where the minimum fare would be deemed as £13 multiplied by 5, I guess. I'd have thought that would take a bit of time.

Good news if this is true! And if it's not true it means the Mayor made this decision based on false information.

 

[matt_world2004]

If the revenue is apportioned on a mileage basis you can see why tfl would see this as unfair when the majority of journeys on their services are short hops , particularly on buses

 

[johncrossley]

One option for zone 6 passengers is to use the bus to get to Zone 3 or 4 to make contactless reasonably affordable, as buses can be used in any zone. That would also be the budget option for Network Railcard holders who can easily reach Zone 5 or 6 stations such as East Croydon or Surbiton.

 

[redreni]

One option for zone 6 passengers is to use the bus to get to Zone 3 or 4 to make contactless reasonably affordable, as buses can be used in any zone. That would also be the budget option for Network Railcard holders who can easily reach Zone 5 or 6 stations such as East Croydon or Surbiton.

Can't speak for others but I certainly won't be doing that.

Takes too long to reach zone 3. I can get to Abbey Wood (zone 4) a bit more easily but that's still asking me to pay more than I do now for a much less convenient journey. I've got a car. Make public transport too difficult or too expensive and the revenue TfL gets from me will go down, not up.

 

[matt_world2004]

Would travelcards be withdrawn on Elizabeth line and london overground services.

 

[MrJeeves]

Would travelcards be withdrawn on Elizabeth line and london overground services.

They are TfL services, so presumably so under the Travelcard agreement.

 

[MikeWM]

Even if TfL wont accept them any more, continued acceptance on NR services would be beneficial, yes the sales would still drop but they would have their uses if you need to get to the other side of London from where you start (for example if I wanted to go from Reading via Paddington, on to Croydon, then via Wimbledon before heading back). Would have to pay separately for the bus trip across the centre but at least the rest could be integrated, plus also the NR zonal area could be reviewed (and divorced from TfLs) to actually include some of the "just outside" areas like Dartford and Shepperton.

And in that case Boundary Zone tickets could be retained. A niche product but one that I find very useful, and at weekends it is currently often better value to get a Travelcard + BZ than a return. (See Ely -> Reading for an obvious example).

 

[island]

And in that case Boundary Zone tickets could be retained. A niche product but one that I find very useful, and at weekends it is currently often better value to get a Travelcard + BZ than a return. (See Ely -> Reading for an obvious example).

But with booking offices closing, getting boundary zone tickets will be increasingly challenging...

 

[Adam Williams]

There's no reason BZ tickets shouldn't be available online

 

[redreni]

From the Equality Impact Assessment:

Discounted Day Travelcards
The following Railcards give 1/3 off Off-Peak Day Travelcards: 16-25 Railcard, 26-30 Railcard, Senior Railcard, Family Railcard, HM
Forces Railcard, Network Railcard, Two Together Railcard, Veterans Railcard, Annual Gold card, and the Disabled Persons Railcard.

A table then appears illustrating what a 1/3 discount is. Then it continues:

It is important to note that should the Proposal be approved, these discounts will continue to be available by having the discounts applied to an Oyster card; although the discounts cannot be applied to contactless payment mechanisms and so possession of Oyster is required to get the discount.
As well as giving 1/3 off Off-Peak Day Travelcard prices, the below Railcards also have additional benefits by allowing for more than one discounted Day Travelcard to be bought:
Family Railcard – additionally up to three adults and four children
HM Forces Railcard -additionally up to four children
Network Railcard - up to three adults and four children
Two Together Railcard – for two adults
Veterans Railcard – additionally up to four children
Annual Gold card – additionally up to three adults and four children
Disabled Persons Railcard – additionally for one accompanying companion.
These discounts for additional travellers would not be available to apply as a discount to Oyster should the Proposal be approved.

The fact that this isn't true of all these railcards was specifically brought to the attention of the officials dealing with this proposal during TfL's consultation exercise by me and others. The fact they then went on to advise the Mayor in these terms strikes me as, in the most charitable interpretation, grossly incompetent. There is a less charitable interpretation where it amounts to misconduct.

It also calls into question the conclusions of their EqIA, in my view.