TfL to order new units for WAML

[Chris125]

TfL have released their latest draft Business Plan which has some details on what they plan to do with the devolved WAML services - this is expected to include the procurement of up to 30 4-car units plus those for Gospel Oak-Barking electrification, which itself could be extended to a new 'Barking Riverside' station.

Expanding our rail services

As part of the Mayor’s ambitions for greater
control of London rail services, we will
transform these routes, supporting jobs and
growth in Tottenham and beyond. Operators
will be incentivised to provide more reliable
services through the same type of contract
that has proved so successful on the rest of
London Overground. Upgrades to 23 stations
will provide improved ambience and facilities,
while Help points and CCTV will enhance
security.

Staff will be more visible across the
routes and customers will benefit from our
integrated travel information service. Better
revenue protection from the installation of
ticket barriers will reduce fraud on the routes.

When the devolution decision is formalised
we will procure up to 30 new four-car
electric units to operate the West Anglia
inner suburban services. These will replace
the current ones, which are up to 30 years
old, and provide a better seating layout, air
conditioning and a more comfortable journey
for passengers. The order for new stock is likely
to be combined with the procurement of new
electric trains for the Gospel Oak to Barking
line to ensure best value for money.

I should think there's a strong possibility these will adopt a similar seating layout to the Crossrail fleet, and whoever wins that will surely be odds-on to win this too.

Chris

 

[Class377/5]

So that's how the TfL map is going to look in a few years time.

 

[hwl]

So that's how the TfL map is going to look in a few years time.

They appear to have missed a few of their own smaller schemes off the map at the end of the plan...

 

[Class377/5]

They appear to have missed a few of their own smaller schemes off the map at the end of the plan...

Like?

 

[hwl]

Like?

Hackney Downs - Hackney Central link (revised scheme in council planning?)
Walthamstow Central - Walthamstow Queens Road link (part constructed)

Both make the map a little trickier in that area!

 

[SF-02]

Good news for them. I'm so annoyed that TfL didn't get southeastern routes. I have an issue with an oyster and it looks like I will have to travel an hour to a tube station to sort it as South Eastern stations won't. Just another irritation of having no TfL control here.

SE wouldn't even require new stock but some inventive thinking to improve passenger numbers. There is latent demand to be tapped but southeastern seemingly lack interest pushing it. TfL would be much better at publicity, security, revenue protection and improving the pathetic 2 tph off peak services on some routes/lines. Lucky East and North east London. One day SE London and the boroughs of Greenwich, Bexley and Bromley may get services half way approaching the quality of the rest of London.

 

[Eagle]

So does this mean more cascaded EMUs are up for grabs?

Wonder who'll get them? (I know that the WG appraised the case for Valley Lines electrification on it receiving 315s displaced by Crossrail, maybe the WA 315s could join them.)

 

[JonathanH]

Good news for them. I'm so annoyed that TfL didn't get southeastern routes. I have an issue with an oyster and it looks like I will have to travel an hour to a tube station to sort it as South Eastern stations won't. Just another irritation of having no TfL control here.

SE wouldn't even require new stock but some inventive thinking to improve passenger numbers. There is latent demand to be tapped but southeastern seemingly lack interest pushing it. TfL would be much better at publicity, security, revenue protection and improving the pathetic 2 tph off peak services on some routes/lines. Lucky East and North east London. One day SE London and the boroughs of Greenwich, Bexley and Bromley may get services half way approaching the quality of the rest of London.

2tph off-peak timetables on the South East London metro services can only be provided at the expense of travellers from further out (who also only get 2tph) (or perhaps stopping short of Central London or really complicated splitting and joining). Handing the services to TfL doesn't improve this. There is no quick fix for this and it is no different from some of the services on the South West London metro services.

Similarly, no different to what will happen on the WAML services where there is conflict between the needs of local and longer-distance travellers.

 

[TEW]

So does this mean more cascaded EMUs are up for grabs?

Wonder who'll get them? (I know that the WG appraised the case for Valley Lines electrification on it receiving 315s displaced by Crossrail, maybe the WA 315s could join them.)

I'm not sure how great the demand for the 315s will be. They're already over 30 years old and really in need of a thorough refurbishment. I suppose they will be a cheap option for someone though, but it's certainly a case of cheap and nasty, they don't even have toilets.

 

[SF-02]

2tph off-peak timetables on the South East London metro services can only be provided at the expense of travellers from further out (who also only get 2tph) (or perhaps stopping short of Central London or really complicated splitting and joining). Handing the services to TfL doesn't improve this. There is no quick fix for this and it is no different from some of the services on the South West London metro services.

Similarly, no different to what will happen on the WAML services where there is conflict between the needs of local and longer-distance travellers.

It's a choice at certain times on certain lines due to perceived lack of demand (which I would argue is there if frequencies improve). For example at Erith station - 2 tph on Sundays and after 9pm weekdays but 6 tph off peak during the day. That doesn't conflict with the semi fasts from Gillingham. Same with Welling station where I had a miserable wait a while back. That's a station with 2.2 million entrances and exits a year. Also 2ph at Westcombe park after 9pm which is pretty poor when coming out of the o2 heading to Kent. With a bit of publicity and a better service more people could be tempted to walk or bus it there after shows? Granted there are some lines where it's necessary.

And then there's the terrible Victoria-Dartford service. 2tph during the day and no service after 8pm and Sundays. Annoying if wishing to get to Victoria to catch a coach or southern service. There's lot's of scope to improve some SE metro routes into turn up and go services. It would cost more but I think it's an experiment worth pursuing that would pay for itself with an innovative operator like TfL.

 

[DeparturesBeck]

May I ask what speeds trains reach on the WAML in service. I'm not familiar with line speeds and distances between stations (amongst other things).

 

[Manchester77]

When are the routes out of Liverpool Sreet due to become TfL operated?

 

[Class377/5]

When are the routes out of Liverpool Sreet due to become TfL operated?

Chingford, Enfield Towm and Cheshunt along with Crossrail's Shenfield.

There's a nice handy link to map in the report in the original post, at the bottom of the PDF.

Here you


New TfL map by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

 

[HSTEd]

The TfL map is getting rather overcomplicated I think....

 

[ainsworth74]

No more so than the Oyster Map (which is the map I use anyway, never bother with just a TfL only/LU only map)

 

[Class377/5]

No more so than the Oyster Map (which is the map I use anyway, never bother with just a TfL only/LU only map)

You mean the ex London Connection map that predates Oyster (and is a BR idea) as the Oyster map is not a color one (and now discontinued with wide spread acceptance of Oyster now).

 

[jopsuk]

they're going to have to start to do something to give different Overground lines different colours? Maybe re-use Underground colours but with orange borders?

 

[CP165]

I was thinking that TfL might have to start numbering or lettering the Overground routes

 

[Manchester77]

No more so than the Oyster Map (which is the map I use anyway, never bother with just a TfL only/LU only map)

All of the Greater Anglia operated routes shown on that map are set to come under the control of TfL then in some shape or form!

And cheery 377/5 any idea of when the takeover will begin?

 

[Class377/5]

All of the Greater Anglia operated routes shown on that map are set to come under the control of TfL then in some shape or form!

And cheery 377/5 any idea of when the takeover will begin?

TfL announced this back in July.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/28301.aspx

 

[ashlar]

It is striking that the order is for 4-car trains. The WA lines currently run 8 - 9 car trains for most of the day. If they shrank them to 4 car this would be a recipe for overcrowding.

Hopefully they'll be paired up to 8-car trains S-bahn style.

 

[Manchester77]

Cheers thanks and cheers for linking the map!

 

[Bald Rick]

And then there's the terrible Victoria-Dartford service. 2tph during the day and no service after 8pm and Sundays. Annoying if wishing to get to Victoria to catch a coach or southern service. There's lot's of scope to improve some SE metro routes into turn up and go services. It would cost more but I think it's an experiment worth pursuing that would pay for itself with an innovative operator like TfL.

TfL are not an operator, they are a specifier. There is nothing to stop DfT specifying the same. And perhaps they will on the Vic-Dartford line.

 

[SF-02]

There's an awful lot of people from outside of London (and even many within) that only look at the tube map when looking at public transport and who are surprised by the many rail lines.

It is getting crowded but being on there is a massive publicity boost for lines in itself to people who only look at tube maps (which are far more prevalent than the london connections maps). Also a lot of people look on google maps for local stations in London and when public transport is highlighted only those lines and stations on the TfL map appear clearly - that is London Overground, Tube, DLR and Trams. Another big boost for awareness and publicity of lines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TfL are not an operator, they are a specifier. There is nothing to stop DfT specifying the same. And perhaps they will on the Vic-Dartford line.

However TfL said they would do it if given the role of specifier. The DfT don't seem to care about specifying it, SE have never attempted to innovate or improve and when management were questioned about it at meet the manager events or local group/political meetings they seem completely dis-interested. So the only hope for a better service seems to be TfL taking over metro routes under the LO banner.

 

[corfield]

If TfL had taken over the South Eastern metro routes, what stock would have transferred across ?

Is there a neat split in SE assets and route allocations ?

Are the 376 (edit, whoops!) and/or 465/466 fleets purely metro/suburban or are they mixed up with 377 fleet operations ?

On a similar note, with the Kent RUS looking for 12 car running are the 376s ever likely to be extended with an extra carriage ? (could the 466s run in multiple with 376s ?).

Not very knowledgeable on this part of the world hence the interest.

TfL / LO do seem to be able to get on and do stuff though.

 

[Class377/5]

If TfL had taken over the South Eastern metro routes, what stock would have transferred across ?

Is there a neat split in SE assets and route allocations ?

Are the 365 and/or 465/466 fleets purely metro/suburban or are they mixed up with 377 fleet operations ?

On a similar note, with the Kent RUS looking for 12 car running are the 376s ever likely to be extended with an extra carriage ? (could the 466s run in multiple with 376s ?).

Not very knowledgeable on this part of the world hence the interest.

TfL / LO do seem to be able to get on and do stuff though.

He 365 are no with SE but FCC.

The 465/466 have general roles in both but do cross between the two.

You can't couple a 466 and a 376 in service (not 100% sure you can in an emergency).

LO don't do anything but run trains. Its TfL who get things done due to the mayor.

Unlikely the 376 will get their 6th car now especially as Bombardier are moving on with the Electrostar design. Doubt anyone would take the risk of integrating the old and new anyway.

 

[SF-02]

Corfield - That's the tricky part. In future I would like to see 465/9 lose the first class and lengthen the 465 metro stock. Class 377s could replace the 465/9 on mid distance routes. Then there would be a separation of stock with 465 and 376 on metro and 377 on mid and long distance. Got to get the London bridge re-build out the way first I'd have thought.

I think the class 376 are tricky to lengthen according to past posts on here. Maybe they will be kept at 10 to use on the Greenwich line where Woolwich Dockyard can't be extended to 12. Though SDO could be used on 376 for that?

 

[Nym]

TfL / LO do seem to be able to get on and do stuff though.

Well, from the chair of LUL that isn't sometimes the case.

Oh well, one can hope we end up with some more appropriate (6 car) stock on the Watford DCs in time before the blockade comes online next year...

 

[Mikey C]

My impression is that the 376 and 465 trains are mixed up on the inner suburban routes, the Greenwich line stoppers seem to operate both types.

The 376 is fairly similar to the 378s, so the basic carriage is still in production, but lengthening to 6 car seems tricky.

 

[Eagle]

I was thinking that TfL might have to start numbering or lettering the Overground routes

They already do (if you look at the printed timetables).

Route 1 is the NLL and WLL. Route 2 is the Watford DC. Route 3 is the GOB. Route 4 is the ELL and its various extensions.