Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[TRAX]

Struggling to make a valid point because of sheer hate has always been a habit for a lot of people (it reminds me of the typical old chap speech according to which modern "plastic" trains are "poorly built" and "will never last 40 years" when said trains are not even 5 years old), but some here have brought this to an art.

 

[Hadders]

I think part of the criticism is down to them being compared to 377/387s. They were designed to replace the 319s and in that context, most would agree that they are a considerable improvement.

They're also replacing the 365s. How do they compare to those trains?

 

[AM9]

... Another silver lining is I dread to think about packed the train would have been with old style and only 8 carriages. As it was people were left behind at St Albans.

That's precisely what it is all about. Almost all passengers woulds like various creature comforts/conveniences, especially if they didn't have to pay extra for them. But if after spending £6.5bn of public resources to give the MML, GN & BML* routes capacity sufficient for the next few decades' expected growth, there was still the farce of passengers left on the platforms, that would indicate failure on a grand scale.
* including the Sutton Loop, Sevenoaks and Littlehampton extensions.

Wipe-clean is good for these trains - they are regularly gross on Friday and Saturday nights.

I can't see anything wrong with that. They are high density transit vehicles, not mobile lounges where the public wipe their feet before boarding and then don carpet slippers.

I was intrigued with the seat supports as well - just a single supporting bar, not proper legs.

I looked closely at them the week before last. They are just well proportioned cantilevers mounted on the sidewall. The stiffness of the beam under the seat prevents flexing under load and the strut maintains horizontal alignment. It gives a clear floor both for easy cleaning, (no fixings to floor that collect dirt even when washed) and additional heavy luggage storage, (similar to aircraft where carry-on items can be stored under the seat in front when overhead bins are full). The design also presumably has good weight-saving and maintenance properties.

 

[D365]

They're also replacing the 365s. How do they compare to those trains?

Not good enough. Never good enough

 

[AM9]

They're also replacing the 365s. How do they compare to those trains?

More capacity and full effective air conditioning for a start. Also, faster boarding/alighting, better distribution of load (once the passengers get used to that) and probably speed/acceleration characteristics better suited to interworking with long distance services.

 

[jopsuk]

They're also replacing the 365s. How do they compare to those trains?

Well on the Cambridge side two 12-car services will be replacing one 4/8 car service. Which could be 317 or a 321 as well. And two 8-car services will replace one 4-car service (more likely to be a 317). So 40 carriages over 8-12 carriages per hour on the off peak slow and semi-fast. Never mind the quality, feel the rooooom!

 

[Techniquest]

I was reading the opinions others were posting, but the constant complaining got on my wick. Stuff reading all that!

I had my first go on a 700 yesterday (11/07/2016), riding on 700114 in the front coach from Blackfriars to East Croydon on the 0658 Bedford to Three Bridges. The first thing that occured to me was that they've not got such an ugly front end appearance as the 380s (although I got used to that eventually) and that I was smiling when it rolled in. I tried to get some good photos, but Blackfriars doesn't lend itself to good photo opportunities with moving trains.

So to the journey itself. You cannot help but notice the plastic-y smell as you board, but this is not an issue for me. It makes it feel more like a brand new train that's rolled off the assembly line, as if this is the first working it's ever done, you cannot mistake it being a new train! Of course, the train was nearly empty at this time of day heading south. I dread to think what it was like before it reached Farringdon! Finding a seat was therefore a breeze.

Considering how new they are, I have no issue with the seats. OK they're not super comfortable, but they will get better in time and are actually quite reasonable anyway. The flooring, OK it's not carpet but it will be a doddle to clean unlike a lot of trains and no doubt it will last much longer too.

2+2 seating is seriously welcome on these, especially when you then get on a Southern train with 3+2 seating. Actually on that note, I prefer the seats in 387s and 700s to those in most 377s, as they're not astro-turf style and the ironing board sets in 377/4s are not comfortable anyway. Yes I was foolish enough to use Southern yesterday, oh my days they grate on my nerves these days...

On board facilities of 700s, I used the one in the next coach down and immediately noticed how weird it was being able to walk straight through on these. Funky and nice mind, no potentially unreliable vestibule doors (regular 170 and 377 users will know what I mean!) to get in the way. No issue with the facilities, except the water out of the tap should have had a little less pressure in it or pointed out differently, as it has the potential to splash all over your clothes.

It did feel weird being on a train making that Desiro noise in this part of the world, although I look forward to trying them when they're under AC power!

Overall I enjoyed my first 700, and once they enter service en-masse I'll be spending more time on Thameslink.

 

[trainmania100]

A class 700 has failed at St Albans this morning due to power problems.

Delay attribution:
Cancelled at ST ALBANS CITY (08:12) due to DMU OTHER
(DMU (inc. HST/MPV) failure/defect/attention: other (excluding Railhead Conditioning trains))

 

[physics34]

Are they on TB501, 502 and 503 diagrams today?

 

[asylumxl]

More capacity and full effective air conditioning for a start. Also, faster boarding/alighting, better distribution of load (once the passengers get used to that) and probably speed/acceleration characteristics better suited to interworking with long distance services.

What we really mean to say is that they're designed for operational convenience and not for passenger convenience .

I can appreciate that. Seat back tables wouldn't hurt though. I promise us mindless self-loading freight can be trusted not to get stuck in them and increase dwell times :P.

 

[AM9]

What we really mean to say is that they're designed for operational convenience and not for passenger convenience .

Much more 'passenger convenient' than less trains, more delays, longer servicing/maintenance cycles.

I can appreciate that. Seat back tables wouldn't hurt though. I promise us mindless self-loading freight can be trusted not to get stuck in them and increase dwell times :P.

I'm sure that they will act according to the overall level of complaints on such an important issue. It will surely be at the head of the list of improvements in the mid-life refit.

 

[asylumxl]

Much more 'passenger convenient' than less trains, more delays, longer servicing/maintenance cycles.

Given there's been a few failures already, you're not convincing me yet :P.

 

[Class377/5]

That's precisely what it is all about. Almost all passengers woulds like various creature comforts/conveniences, especially if they didn't have to pay extra for them. But if after spending £6.5bn of public resources to give the MML, GN & BML* routes capacity sufficient for the next few decades' expected growth, there was still the farce of passengers left on the platforms, that would indicate failure on a grand scale.
* including the Sutton Loop, Sevenoaks and Littlehampton extensions.

How is one train supposed to fix a problem that is costing £6.5bn? Its not. The idea is having just 700s means people can board trains. Currently there is 3x 12 cars in peak flow on the MML, in December 2018 it'll be 8 to/from Bedford. That's a massive difference without counting for the other 12 cars that will run to Luton (under the current Luton to Rainham proposals)

As for your example of people not being able to get on the first train, its better than waiting three + trains as been posted before.

Strangely the 12 cars on Thameslink have a far higher passenger loads last time I looked the figures as people think they have the most space so greatest chance of getting on.

I can't see anything wrong with that. They are high density transit vehicles, not mobile lounges where the public wipe their feet before boarding and then don carpet slippers.

Indeed. I got on a 700 last week for its first run to find muddy footprints from the door to a passengers seat down half a coach. Try getting that out on a carpet compared to the 700s.

I looked closely at them the week before last. They are just well proportioned cantilevers mounted on the sidewall. The stiffness of the beam under the seat prevents flexing under load and the strut maintains horizontal alignment. It gives a clear floor both for easy cleaning, (no fixings to floor that collect dirt even when washed) and additional heavy luggage storage, (similar to aircraft where carry-on items can be stored under the seat in front when overhead bins are full). The design also presumably has good weight-saving and maintenance properties.

The whole idea of the seating arrangements it to get industrial cleaners down the train meaning you can clean the train faster and better than with any existing stock.

Another silver lining is I dread to think about packed the train would have been with old style and only 8 carriages. As it was people were left behind at St Albans. Wipe-clean is good for these trains - they are regularly gross on Friday and Saturday nights.

I was intrigued with the seat supports as well - just a single supporting bar, not proper legs.

Indeed they get filthy in service late at night. The easier to clean, the better for passengers.

A class 700 has failed at St Albans this morning due to power problems.

Delay attribution:
Cancelled at ST ALBANS CITY (08:12) due to DMU OTHER
(DMU (inc. HST/MPV) failure/defect/attention: other (excluding Railhead Conditioning trains))

Er according to what you've posted its an diesel powered train. You've confused the reason given on TRUST (which is what you've put up) with the train its given too. All that's been done is its been put in a incident that's caused by a failed diesel rain, nothing else. There is nothing to suggest there's a 700 failure, just this train was cancelled in reaction to a failed train.

Stop jumping to conclusions on things you don't understand.

Are they on TB501, 502 and 503 diagrams today?

The 700s will only been on TBxxx diagrams expect in disruption.

Given there's been a few failures already, you're not convincing me yet :P.

As of the weekend there hadn't been a single 700 failure and a two minor faults that were train related and none of which has been posted on here.

 

[bengley]

How is one train supposed to fix a problem that is costing £6.5bn? Its not. The idea is having just 700s means people can board trains. Currently there is 3x 12 cars in peak flow on the MML, in December 2018 it'll be 8 to/from Bedford. That's a massive difference without counting for the other 12 cars that will run to Luton (under the current Luton to Rainham proposals)

As for your example of people not being able to get on the first train, its better than waiting three + trains as been posted before.

Strangely the 12 cars on Thameslink have a far higher passenger loads last time I looked the figures as people think they have the most space so greatest chance of getting on.



Indeed. I got on a 700 last week for its first run to find muddy footprints from the door to a passengers seat down half a coach. Try getting that out on a carpet compared to the 700s.



The whole idea of the seating arrangements it to get industrial cleaners down the train meaning you can clean the train faster and better than with any existing stock.



Indeed they get filthy in service late at night. The easier to clean, the better for passengers.



Er according to what you've posted its an diesel powered train. You've confused the reason given on TRUST (which is what you've put up) with the train its given too. All that's been done is its been put in a incident that's caused by a failed diesel rain, nothing else. There is nothing to suggest there's a 700 failure, just this train was cancelled in reaction to a failed train.

Stop jumping to conclusions on things you don't understand.



The 700s will only been on TBxxx diagrams expect in disruption.



As of the weekend there hadn't been a single 700 failure and a two minor faults that were train related and none of which has been posted on here.

Actually, he's right. 1W13 failed at St Albans this morning as it couldn't take power after leaving the neutral section north of the station. It was sent empties to Cricklewood when it eventually got moving.

 

[387star]

Anyone else find it funny 377s are getting more carpet ie vestibules whilst 790s and 365s get less? I am sure someone said carpet was fitted throughout to lessn slips

Then again the 700s have less flimsy material on the floors than 377 vestibule lino

 

[asylumxl]

Actually, he's right. 1W13 failed at St Albans this morning as it couldn't take power after leaving the neutral section north of the station. It was sent empties to Cricklewood when it eventually got moving.

Stop jumping to conclusions on things you don't understand. .

[emoji38]

They're new trains, it's understandable they'll have teething problems.

 

[jon0844]

Anyone else find it funny 377s are getting more carpet ie vestibules whilst 790s and 365s get less? I am sure someone said carpet was fitted throughout to lessn slips

Then again the 700s have less flimsy material on the floors than 377 vestibule lino

Where do you think they're taking the carpet from?!

 

[asylumxl]

Where do you think they're taking the carpet from?!

I thought they were using offcuts from CarpetRight.

 

[Class377/5]

Actually, he's right. 1W13 failed at St Albans this morning as it couldn't take power after leaving the neutral section north of the station. It was sent empties to Cricklewood when it eventually got moving.

That doesn't make sense. It can't take power but moved anyway? Turns out it was one coaches traction package issues only. Sounds like it was removed due to caution than complete failure.

For the record a 700 only needs one traction package to work even in a 12 car (max about 40mph) compared to a 377 that requires at least 4 or so for a 12 car to be able to move.

And it was 700104, first day in service I believe?

[emoji38]

They're new trains, it's understandable they'll have teething problems.

Indeed. The bath tub curve of a new class (for those who don't know) see's steep sides for introduction and withdrawal. For the introduction phase its as more being unfamiliar with the stock and how it works (especially when its so very different) than actual real faults.

I don't suppose many of you remember the issues with the 377s on introduction not coping wit the higher than normal voltages in the Farringdon/City area? The first ever 377 public service on Thameslink took 45mins at Farringdon to changeover power supply. This is an example of how things in the initial year or so soon melt away as experience is gain.

 

[LBSCR Times]

That doesn't make sense. It can't take power but moved anyway? Turns out it was one coaches traction package issues only. Sounds like it was removed due to caution than complete failure.

For the record a 700 only needs one traction package to work even in a 12 car (max about 40mph) compared to a 377 that requires at least 4 or so for a 12 car to be able to move.

And it was 700104, first day in service I believe?



Indeed. The bath tub curve of a new class (for those who don't know) see's steep sides for introduction and withdrawal. For the introduction phase its as more being unfamiliar with the stock and how it works (especially when its so very different) than actual real faults.

I don't suppose many of you remember the issues with the 377s on introduction not coping wit the higher than normal voltages in the Farringdon/City area? The first ever 377 public service on Thameslink took 45mins at Farringdon to changeover power supply. This is an example of how things in the initial year or so soon melt away as experience is gain.

Sat at St.Albans for 57 minutes on the Up Slow, hardly a minor problem...
Took Siemens techs some time to get power to the units.

 

[Bald Rick]

I had my first go on a 700 yesterday (11/07/2016), riding on 700114 in the front coach from Blackfriars to East Croydon on the 0658 Bedford to Three Bridges.

In which case, you got on the door I got off. *doffs cap*

 

[physics34]

Currently in First Class of a 700 now. I can't help thinking that these seats and tables should be in standard class.

 

[Bald Rick]

Currently in First Class of a 700 now. I can't help thinking that these seats and tables should be in standard class.

What? They far superior to first in the 377s / 387s, and dare I say 319s and 365s.


But back to seats - I realised this morning that you can summarise all the above negative comments on seats quite easily.

They are Schroedinger's seats: you can never get one and they are uncomfortable at the same time.

 

[asylumxl]

Indeed. The bath tub curve of a new class (for those who don't know) see's steep sides for introduction and withdrawal. For the introduction phase its as more being unfamiliar with the stock and how it works (especially when its so very different) than actual real faults.

I don't suppose many of you remember the issues with the 377s on introduction not coping wit the higher than normal voltages in the Farringdon/City area? The first ever 377 public service on Thameslink took 45mins at Farringdon to changeover power supply. This is an example of how things in the initial year or so soon melt away as experience is gain.

I remember. In fact, a Bulgarian chap I know (electrical engineer who works for NR) was involved in remedying the supply problem.

If I remember correctly originally they could only changeover if another 377 was in the other platform to reduce the overall voltage. Without another train I believe it was about 800-850V.

I suppose it's good a few 700s are failing early on, allows the problems to be sorted before mass introduction. Let's face it anyway, Siemens products are usually far superior even when new to Bombardiers.

 

[physics34]

What? They far superior to first in the 377s / 387s, and dare I say 319s and 365s.


But back to seats - I realised this morning that you can summarise all the above negative comments on seats quite easily.

They are Schroedinger's seats: you can never get one and they are uncomfortable at the same time.

The first ones are good and don't seem as hard as people have suggested, in my opinion. ...but not particularly that special.

 

[The Box Photter]

That doesn't make sense. It can't take power but moved anyway? Turns out it was one coaches traction package issues only. Sounds like it was removed due to caution than complete failure.

For the record a 700 only needs one traction package to work even in a 12 car (max about 40mph) compared to a 377 that requires at least 4 or so for a 12 car to be able to move.

And it was 700104, first day in service I believe?



Indeed. The bath tub curve of a new class (for those who don't know) see's steep sides for introduction and withdrawal. For the introduction phase its as more being unfamiliar with the stock and how it works (especially when its so very different) than actual real faults.

I don't suppose many of you remember the issues with the 377s on introduction not coping wit the higher than normal voltages in the Farringdon/City area? The first ever 377 public service on Thameslink took 45mins at Farringdon to changeover power supply. This is an example of how things in the initial year or so soon melt away as experience is gain.

Honestly, your incessant defending of these awful trains is getting tedious.

One of your beloved children FAILED on the job in the morning peak. Don't try to spin it any other way.

After the fuss that's been made about the level of testing these units have gone through and the redundant fail-safe systems they have to keep them going it's laughable that it's only taken two days in service (north of London) for one to sit down.

It's only because Thameslink have a captive market of commuters who have no reasonable alternative but to get the train that these trains are in any way deemed acceptable. They won't encourage anyone out of their car, nor will they make anyone feel better about commuting via GTR.

It's only the fact that Southern is managing to p1$$ off all and sundry that keeps Thameslink's current dire reliability out of the headlines.

 

[LBSCR Times]

It's only the fact that Southern is managing to p1$$ off all and sundry that keeps Thameslink's current dire reliability out of the headlines.

Evening peak trains short formed tonight (according to the relevant websites!):-
Southern 0, Thameslink 10!

 

[TRAX]

Because you think your "beloved" Class 319s went into service without any issues ? Bah, see my earlier message... This is ridiculous. Open your minds a bit. Remove the gangway that stops you from seeing clearly ahead.

And stop imagining yourself as the damn King/Queen, thinking an urban/suburban commuter train should at the same time be the bloody Orient-Express ! Are you one of those who boards a train where the exit will be at your destination station five seconds before complaining the train is overcrowded (your car, in fact) because everyone is stupid enough to do the same thing !?

Please learn how to commute (or buy yourself a mobile 5 star hotel). Do you think the French and the German urban/suburban commuter trains have tables ? Heck, RER A EMUs don't even have high-back seats ! But yet we don't expect the comfort of a TGV. We know the difference between commuting and travelling.

 

[Bald Rick]

Honestly, your incessant defending of these awful trains is getting tedious.

Personally, I find your incessant slagging off of these trains tiresome. I still haven't heard a well argued reason why they are awful:

"Not enough seats" - repeatedly explained that there will be more seats than today on most individual trains, and certainly across the morning and evening high peaks as a whole. On the trains where there are fewer seats than today, the reduction is relatively small, and total capacity, including standing, is higher.

"Seats uncomfortable" - is a matter of opinion. In my view standard is no different to the 377s and 387s, First is much better. Standard is definitely better than the 319s. Both are at least as good as a 365 / 321. My personal opinion of course.

"No armrests" - last time i looked there weren't any on the 319s, half the coaches of a 377, or indeed most commuter based trains around the south east.

"No plug sockets" - please get a grip. I see, perhaps, one person a month using the sockets on a 377. Never on a 319 for obvious reasons. Learn to manage your battery life. Or buy a first class ticket.

"No wifi" - 4G. And in any event, wifi is coming (waste of taxpayers money in my view given 4G)


I have used them in service, twice, and found them more than acceptable, indeed unquestionably better than the trains they are replacing. Some of which are a matter of weeks old let us not forget. They are quieter, better accelerating, cleaner, have a best in class information system (which has worked perfectly on my trips), improved accessibility, vastly improved dwell times, safer, and they will be more reliable. Oh, and they form part of a significant upgrade in capacity on the lines they will serve.

I have also asked many friends of non-railway persuasion who have used them what they think, and reaction so far has been positive. The exception being my good chum who was on the failure this morning, who said 'nice train, would have been nicer if it moved'. Understandable in the circumstances. But note the first word.

 

[Clip]

They are Schroedinger's seats: you can never get one and they are uncomfortable at the same time.

I think I love you after that

But this thread has gone the way of the GWR IEP one ( though those trains havent even entered service yet and people still think theyre poor) and I really do think that some people just hate on anything that wasnt built by BR.