Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[GodAtum]

ANy running tomorrow from ECR to London bridge or vice versa?

 

[ComUtoR]

Fact that the only time a driver needs to leave the train is to access the parking brake or use an SPT (all cocks are within the coaches) will make it a much better train for staff and experience for passengers.

There are a few cocks outside the unit and look to be only accessible from the outside. Also to couple you need to be outside the unit.

 

[talldave]

You say that like it is a bad thing. Up here a little cheer goes up when one turns up. Because the alternative is usually a couple of 142s bouncing down the tracks. :grin:

The seats are low and crap, the doors almost get ripped out by passing trains and the brakes stink. It's like cattle class!! The 700s are desperately needed!

 

[55003]

I can see the deliberate positioning of the door controls as being the base point in an error chain if there has to be an evacuation. Error chains start with design errors or flaws and continue through various criteria to the end user. I hope that the designer has sufficient insurance when there is an incident in the future which can be passed back to flawed design suppositions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model
My other concern is the reduction of seating as more standing passengers are going to be seriously injured in an accident.

 

[AM9]

I can see the deliberate positioning of the door controls as being the base point in an error chain if there has to be an evacuation. Error chains start with design errors or flaws and continue through various criteria to the end user. I hope that the designer has sufficient insurance when there is an incident in the future which can be passed back to flawed design suppositions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model
My other concern is the reduction of seating as more standing passengers are going to be seriously injured in an accident.

It sounds like you are presuming the absence of a sufficient risk assessment procedure and execution.

 

[Class377/5]

There are a few cocks outside the unit and look to be only accessible from the outside. Also to couple you need to be outside the unit.

There are no cocks outside the train. I've been shown all the cocks on board a unit (002 for the record). Only thing you access from the outside is parking brakes and coupler.

 

[ComUtoR]

MRIC x2, RPIC, WFLIC, SIC, ASIC. Are all outside the unit and they are the ones I've found so far.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are there some isolating cocks that are legally required to be on the outside of a unit?

 

[Bald Rick]

I can see the deliberate positioning of the door controls as being the base point in an error chain if there has to be an evacuation. Error chains start with design errors or flaws and continue through various criteria to the end user. I hope that the designer has sufficient insurance when there is an incident in the future which can be passed back to flawed design suppositions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model
My other concern is the reduction of seating as more standing passengers are going to be seriously injured in an accident.

In an evacuation situation, the position of the door controls that are enabled at a station are the least of your worries. If it is an evacuation at a station, the driver will open all the doors at once himself (or herself). If it is not at a station, then the responsible staff have to risk assess (very quickly) which doors to open, and do so in a controlled manner. In an uncontrolled evacuation, the driver or responsible staff won't be releasing any doors, so the position of the door controls are irrelevant.

In terms of seats :

12 car 387: 666 seats
12 car 700: 666 seats

 

[SpacePhoenix]

In the core how many signal sections are typically between stations?

 

[Fincra5]

In the core how many signal sections are typically between stations?

Take a look for yourself http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/tlk_core

 

[Class2ldn]

MRIC x2, RPIC, WFLIC, SIC, ASIC. Are all outside the unit and they are the ones I've found so far.

It's mrpic, asic, wflic,pic,sic,cic and rpic.
All of these are external.
Internals are pic, Bic and tic.

 

[55003]

Has a full evacuation trial been carried out, as an aircraft manufacturer would be required to do with a new type, or has it all been "modelled"?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Has a full evacuation trial been carried out, as an aircraft manufacturer would be required to do with a new type, or has it all been "modelled"?

I've no idea, but why would you want to undertake a full evacuation of the sort an aircraft manufacturer would do ?

Evacuations on the railway need to be orderly and cautious, as you could be evacuating passengers underneath a dewirement with the potential for still live 25kV catenary around the train or on the track, and just as easily be evacuating on third rail, so finding out what side of the train the third rail is on would be a good idea before letting people jump out onto the live rail, quite probably killing them.

You would also want to try and have traffic stopped first before evacuating passengers into the path of an oncoming train.

It's also worth pointing out that it's an electric train with extensive fire protection, not a jet aircraft with thousands of gallons of flammable jet fuel on board, ready to catch fire and explode at any moment. If your train does catch fire, you'll have ages to evacuate in a calm and orderly fashion. You would probably be perfectly safe to remain in a carriage that's on fire below the solebar until the fire brigade arrive and put out the fire.

If it's something more serious such as a terrorist attack as per 7/7 or a Clapham junction train crash, you're pretty much on your own, there's no way Siemens or GTR can begin to work out the functionality left within the stock or how damage will influence the evacuation. Siemens certainly make a safe bodyshell which will crumple in a predefined way and the intention is that the crash structures will save people's lives, but there's no guarantee how passengers will then evacuate the vehicle or how rescuers will access the stock - does the impact cause a derailment, does a bomb blast split the train, what if the stock rolls or ends up tight against a cutting wall, what if the other train ends up on top of the stock.

 

[Domh245]

I've no idea, but why would you want to undertake a full evacuation of the sort an aircraft manufacturer would do ?

Evacuations on the railway need to be orderly and cautious, as you could be evacuating passengers underneath a dewirement with the potential for still live 25kV catenary around the train or on the track, and just as easily be evacuating on third rail, so finding out what side of the train the third rail is on would be a good idea before letting people jump out onto the live rail, quite probably killing them.

You would also want to try and have traffic stopped first before evacuating passengers into the path of an oncoming train.

It's also worth pointing out that it's an electric train with extensive fire protection, not a jet aircraft with thousands of gallons of flammable jet fuel on board, ready to catch fire and explode at any moment. If your train does catch fire, you'll have ages to evacuate in a calm and orderly fashion. You would probably be perfectly safe to remain in a carriage that's on fire below the solebar until the fire brigade arrive and put out the fire.

If it's something more serious such as a terrorist attack as per 7/7 or a Clapham junction train crash, you're pretty much on your own, there's no way Siemens or GTR can begin to work out the functionality left within the stock or how damage will influence the evacuation. Siemens certainly make a safe bodyshell which will crumple in a predefined way and the intention is that the crash structures will save people's lives, but there's no guarantee how passengers will then evacuate the vehicle or how rescuers will access the stock - does the impact cause a derailment, does a bomb blast split the train, what if the stock rolls or ends up tight against a cutting wall, what if the other train ends up on top of the stock.

There is a video floating around somewhere of an S stock undergoing an emergency evacuation test at Litchurch Lane (using about 20 people and a set of stairs to the first set of passenger doors) so manufacturers do test this kind of thing. However, this would only be done to prove compliance with whatever regulations exist regarding emergency evacuations, and I suspect that they exist on London Underground, but not NR.

 

[AM9]

Has a full evacuation trial been carried out, as an aircraft manufacturer would be required to do with a new type, or has it all been "modelled"?

Those aircraft evacuation tests are largely irrelevant in real terms. They are performed using fully fit young persons in sports shoes etc, where they all co-operate to get out of the aircraft in the minimum time possible. The results of such tests are only useful when compared with other aircraft results as they ignore so many thing that exist in real life:

not all air passengers are fully fit
passengers wear smart shoes/sandals/no shoes
passengers don't form orderly queues to get into the aisle and then move at uniform speeds towards the open escape doors
some passengers faff around to collect 'essential' items before leaving their seats, (despite being told not to by aircrew)
some passengers panic when told to jump on a slide
​

There are many more reasons why escape tests are virtually irrelevant but the authorities collude with the commercial airlines to ensure that the minimum expense is wasted on safety whilst still complying with the letter of the regulations.

 

[jon0844]

Don't they give incentives to get people trying to get off first, rather than just queuing calmly and thinking it's all a bit of a laugh?

 

[55003]

AM9 you have failed to answer the question I asked.

In America, the FAA sets the rules for evacuation tests. (The tests in Europe are pretty much the same.) A manufacturer must show that the airplane's maximum capacity of passengers and crewmembers can evacuate the plane in less than 90 seconds—the time it takes a fire to engulf a standard cabin. The fake passengers must be representative of real travelers, which means at least 40 percent should be female and 35 percent have to be older than 50. Three participants must also carry a large doll, to represent an infant.

The emergency simulation takes place in a plane that's parked in a dark hangar. Everyone must evacuate via emergency exits, with only the track lighting on the floor to guide them. They can use only half of the exits, though—one from each pair is blocked off. Testers also strew bags, pillows, and other debris in the aisles to simulate the chaos of a real airline accident.
Manufacturers like Airbus and Boeing typically encourage their employees to participate in the tests, and then they fill out the remainder of the seats with hired volunteers. According to the FAA, no company employee is allowed to sit in the exit row, and you can't participate in more than one test every six months.
As to it being a bit of a laugh then you need to speak to the 5% who suffer an injury during the test.

 

[AM9]

Don't they give incentives to get people trying to get off first, rather than just queuing calmly and thinking it's all a bit of a laugh?

Just Google 'aircraft evacuation tests'. There is an increasing concern over the shortcomings of test requirements and what corners are allowed to be cut in order to get a certificate compared with what happens in real emergencies.
See here:
https://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/2015/03/25/time-to-take-a-fresh-look-at-aircraft-emergency-egress-testing/

The article covers so many issues with current test regimes so it is difficult to summarise them all but the opening paragraphs include this worrying statement:

... Yet as the passenger experience industry continues to create innovative uses of onboard space, the silence around reviewing emergency egress requirements and modeling is of concern. Increased aircraft survivability during incidents is impressive, but the evacuation patterns of documented incidents and new understandings of passenger behaviour do raise a number of questions.

 

[ComUtoR]

,cic

Missed that one. Still haven't found it yet. I'm trudging through the manual at the moment. DMI and HMI look daunting but manageable.

Cheers

 

[Class2ldn]

There not too bad, bit of a pain setting the cab up until you get the hang of it.

 

[Supercoss]

700 003 became the first train to venture under its own power through the canal tunnels that link St Pancras low level and the ECML at Belle Isle overnight, running Cricklewood- St Pancras LL (A) canal Tunnels Belle Isle canal tunnels St Pancras LL (B) then back to Cricklewood. Running in an engineers possession after the last service train had departed
primarily to test the rigid overhead conductor rail and new overhead line neutral section
that also features conductor rail, a first installation of this ohns type.

 

[bengley]

I noticed that the Neutral section is immediately after leaving St Pancras on entry to the tunnel - shutting off at that point in a 12-car 700 is going to affect journey times considering the time it takes for the VCB to close again on 700s

 

[swt_passenger]

I noticed that the Neutral section is immediately after leaving St Pancras on entry to the tunnel - shutting off at that point in a 12-car 700 is going to affect journey times considering the time it takes for the VCB to close again on 700s

The rear pan will still be in contact though.

 

[ComUtoR]

The rear pan will still be in contact though.

On a 319 you get the VCB going off twice as each unit is separate. Does a 700 have two VCB's ? I notice that its very electrical and maybe there is a delay as the DMI/HMI and the onboard computer systems go through checks etc. ?

 

[swt_passenger]

On a 319 you get the VCB going off twice as each unit is separate. Does a 700 have two VCB's ? I notice that its very electrical and maybe there is a delay as the DMI/HMI and the onboard computer systems go through checks etc. ?

A 700 is electrically speaking two separate half units, it has previously been posted that it runs with both pans up at all times, the two half units are not electrically connected.

Or to put it another way it is not the same as a Pendolino, there is no on train 25 kV bus line.

 

[bengley]

The rear pan will still be in contact though.

You still have to shut off upon entering a neutral section.

 

[ComUtoR]

the two half units are not electrically connected.

Sooo two VCB's then ?

You still have to shut off upon entering a neutral section.

Does it have an APC magnet thingy ?

 

[387star]

Can't the shoes pick up the juice as they are always down on a 700 if there is a third rail in this neutral area as posted above? you still need to power off then despite the conductor rail?

 

[jopsuk]

Can't the shoes pick up the juice as they are always down on a 700 if there is a third rail in this neutral area as posted above? you still need to power off then despite the conductor rail?

On the dual electrified section when running on AC the DC shoes will be electrically disconnected from the power systems of the train