Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Failed Unit]

Actually surprised that with a few cancelled Cambridge stopping services, stop orders (on Peterborough services) have filled the gaps. An hourly service is poor, but at least there haven't been the two hour gaps there otherwise might have been.

How bad things have become that this is a reason to celebrate,

But it depends where you are. One of the Peterborough services only had stops added at Knebworth and WGC. Not sure why or who important lives at Knebworth - Can understand why Welwyn North is missed as it could conflict with faster services. But Hatfield and Potters Bar also have a 2 hour gap to Kings Cross as a result. Not bad for 2 of the busiest stations on Great Northern.

How getting crush loaded onto 387 last year seems to be a luxary now.

 

[jamesthegill]

Please delete.

 

[bramling]

Spot on. Given that everything’s going to Kings Cross at weekends making it self contained you’d have thought they could’ve just reverted to the old timetable again.

I don’t even think there are any 12 car 700s atvthe weekends anywhere on GN.

There aren’t - the weekend is mainly 8-car 365, 387 or 700/0 - with some 4-car 387s in the mix plus a very small handful of 3x387 on a couple of selected Cambridge express services on Sundays IIRC.

 

[Aictos]

That is the surprise to me, doesn't really matter what the incident is but you would expect they have a plan for "Line blocked at Welwyn North"

I know you don't know how long it will be blocked for, but something along the lines of.

Brighton - Cambridge - Divert via Hertford
Horsham - Peterborough - Divert via Hertford
London - Cambridge - Divert via Hertford
London - Kings Lynn - Divert via Hertford
London - Hertford - Rail Replacement Buses

At the moment you simply don't see evidence of this and they just stack trains up.

Trouble is even with that. Hertford diversion adds about 20 minutes on. So you soon run out of trains or have massive reactionary delays.

There you go, I've corrected your post for you

This has been happening to passengers travelling from Bedford to/from London ever since Thameslink began. The fundamental weakness of the whole Thameslink concept is that the trains which form services north of central London start and terminate in Brighton or somewhere else in third-rail land, where the infrastructue is clapped out and there's little or no spare capacity on the network. Couple this to the fact that for Brighton-line passengers there's little or no alternative way for them to get home, meaning that the train operator is forced to send trains south even if the line is blocked by trespassers or badgers.

Thameslink (and FCC before) steadfastly refuse to split the service in two either side of the Core, even in times of serious disruption, because they havent sufficient drivers in the right places or (apparently) capacity to terminate & turn trains. Had they not sacrificed the bay platforms in the old Blackfriars Station during the vanity project rebuild, it would have been a suitable candidate. Similarly, had St Pancras not been handed over to Eurostar, there would have been capacity there. Its a complete planning cock-up, overseen by incompetents and idiots.

1. The old bay platforms at Blackfriars were on the wrong side of the station for the proposed increase in services and would have meant a lot of conflicting moves hence why we now have the bay platforms on the west side in order to reduce the number of conflicting moves.

2. It was proposed to terminate the Wimbledon services in these bay platforms at Blackfriars which would have made the mainline services more reliable however due to opposition from the locals and the local MP, that got cancelled.

3. I don't know if you are aware or not but HS1 goes to St Pancras and not Waterloo for a number of reasons not only to free up platform space at Waterloo which is finally happening but also to speed up Eurostar from the very slow pace though South London to Waterloo to being a attractive form of travel between UK and Europe.

4. As it's been pointed out time and time before, they never built a 4 platform station at
St Pancras due to physical constraints so regardless even if Eurostar didn't use these platforms at St Pancras, someone else would have done be it South Eastern High Speed or East Midlands Trains.

5. That's your view and a tad upfair to these who have struggled to make the timetable work both in the past and now.

6. Thameslink services don't all start or terminate in Brighton no matter how bias you believe yourself to be, they start or terminate in Bedford, Brighton, St Albans, Luton, Sutton/Wimbledon, Sevenoaks and that's before the newer destinations that the current timetable brought in by GTR.

7. For Brighton line passengers, again you seem to not be aware the line has bi-directional signalling so unless its a total blockade, services can still run using the bi-di signalling:

• Balcombe Tunnel junction to Copyhold Junction (just north of Haywards Heath).
• Haywards Heath to Keymer Junction (just south of Wivelsfield).
• Keymer Junction to Preston Park.

You also seem to have forgotten that the section from Wivelsfield to Preston Park can be bypassed via Lewes at Keymer Junction rejoining the main line at Montpelier Junction.

 

[uglymonkey]

There you go, I've corrected your post for you



1. The old bay platforms at Blackfriars were on the wrong side of the station for the proposed increase in services and would have meant a lot of conflicting moves hence why we now have the bay platforms on the west side in order to reduce the number of conflicting moves.

2. It was proposed to terminate the Wimbledon services in these bay platforms at Blackfriars which would have made the mainline services more reliable however due to opposition from the locals and the local MP, that got cancelled.

3. I don't know if you are aware or not but HS1 goes to St Pancras and not Waterloo for a number of reasons not only to free up platform space at Waterloo which is finally happening but also to speed up Eurostar from the very slow pace though South London to Waterloo to being a attractive form of travel between UK and Europe.

4. As it's been pointed out time and time before, they never built a 4 platform station at
St Pancras due to physical constraints so regardless even if Eurostar didn't use these platforms at St Pancras, someone else would have done be it South Eastern High Speed or East Midlands Trains.

5. That's your view and a tad upfair to these who have struggled to make the timetable work both in the past and now.

6. Thameslink services don't all start or terminate in Brighton no matter how bias you believe yourself to be, they start or terminate in Bedford, Brighton, St Albans, Luton, Sutton/Wimbledon, Sevenoaks and that's before the newer destinations that the current timetable brought in by GTR.

7. For Brighton line passengers, again you seem to not be aware the line has bi-directional signalling so unless its a total blockade, services can still run using the bi-di signalling:

• Balcombe Tunnel junction to Copyhold Junction (just north of Haywards Heath).
• Haywards Heath to Keymer Junction (just south of Wivelsfield).
• Keymer Junction to Preston Park.

You also seem to have forgotten that the section from Wivelsfield to Preston Park can be bypassed via Lewes at Keymer Junction rejoining the main line at Montpelier Junction.

Regardless of all that, all the investment, the planning, the effort. The train service is far , far worse than I've ever know it. Far from apologizing for ThamesLink we need a plan of where we go from here, especially when the school holidays are over, and everyone is trying to get back to work !

 

[OwenB]

Regardless of all that, all the investment, the planning, the effort. The train service is far , far worse than I've ever know it. Far from apologizing for ThamesLink we need a plan of where we go from here, especially when the school holidays are over, and everyone is trying to get back to work !

They can try by changing their company culture - stop lying to us to kick the can down the road e.g. Mr Cheshire asserting that they have enough drivers and then proceed to cancel scores of trains due to 'shortage of train crew'. This is really p***ing off passengers.

They need to clearly and truthfully tell us:
- When things are going to be rectified, including milestones (when are services going to be introduced to the interim timetable, when can we expect the full service to run).
- What they are doing to resolve issues, e.g. are the drivers going through training, how are they addressing the air con issues on some trains, etc.
- Regular updates on progress.

Their communication is so poor to us plebs. We like to know what is going on behind the scenes. If the service is going to be crap until December, just tell us. Once it's out there, the anger will soon dissipate, so long as you're also telling us what's going on behind the scenes to fix this mess.

Mind you, the above wouldn't be possible if they were making things up as they go along, which I fear may be the case.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes total agreement with above. If they have a plan why don’t they publish it. At the moment we have no idea when the May 2018 timetable will be in service and 2 of the busiest peak services from WGC are missing as a result (from the previous timetable).

I suspect they are fearful of failing - but can things really be worse then they are now on Great Northern? Do they really have no clue on when we can have a useable service at weekends?

They have already failed in delivering the hype about the July 15th timetable. (Which needs time to bed in). That kind of statement grates - the only thing it has proven is that network rail approving the timetable late was only a contributing factor not the real reason. Be interesting when they go back to the select committee and need to explain why things are no better after much of their previous submission is discredited. Nick Brown is quiet.

I wonder if he even bothers asking why the service on date x was so bad, if he does if he is only looking for non GTR issues rather than looks for what is own organisation could have done better if the main factor was external. I just get the feeling GTR just see “signal failure” ok network rails fault. Rather than had we done x, y and z the service would have recovered quicker.

 

[43074]

There you go, I've corrected your post for you



1. The old bay platforms at Blackfriars were on the wrong side of the station for the proposed increase in services and would have meant a lot of conflicting moves hence why we now have the bay platforms on the west side in order to reduce the number of conflicting moves.

2. It was proposed to terminate the Wimbledon services in these bay platforms at Blackfriars which would have made the mainline services more reliable however due to opposition from the locals and the local MP, that got cancelled.

3. I don't know if you are aware or not but HS1 goes to St Pancras and not Waterloo for a number of reasons not only to free up platform space at Waterloo which is finally happening but also to speed up Eurostar from the very slow pace though South London to Waterloo to being a attractive form of travel between UK and Europe.

4. As it's been pointed out time and time before, they never built a 4 platform station at
St Pancras due to physical constraints so regardless even if Eurostar didn't use these platforms at St Pancras, someone else would have done be it South Eastern High Speed or East Midlands Trains.

5. That's your view and a tad upfair to these who have struggled to make the timetable work both in the past and now.

6. Thameslink services don't all start or terminate in Brighton no matter how bias you believe yourself to be, they start or terminate in Bedford, Brighton, St Albans, Luton, Sutton/Wimbledon, Sevenoaks and that's before the newer destinations that the current timetable brought in by GTR.

7. For Brighton line passengers, again you seem to not be aware the line has bi-directional signalling so unless its a total blockade, services can still run using the bi-di signalling:

• Balcombe Tunnel junction to Copyhold Junction (just north of Haywards Heath).
• Haywards Heath to Keymer Junction (just south of Wivelsfield).
• Keymer Junction to Preston Park.

You also seem to have forgotten that the section from Wivelsfield to Preston Park can be bypassed via Lewes at Keymer Junction rejoining the main line at Montpelier Junction.

Regardless the above does not explain the inability of GTR to provide a reasonably reliable service on a day to day basis. These are not constraints which are not known about, the service should be planned so that it works robustly even with these constraints factored in.

 

[BRX]

We need to separate out the longer term planning and concept behind the Thameslink Programme from the recent/current implementation of it by GTR. It's very clear that GTR have made a mess of the latter but some folks seem a bit too keen to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and take the current problems to mean that the overall scheme can't ever work. As far as I know we don't have enough evidence to say that yet.

And yes there are fundamental difficulties in running an intensive through service, which inevitably have consequences for reliability. But that intensive through service operation isn't just being done for a laugh - it's part of an attempt to increase capacity where there are few alternatives - this seems to get forgotten in some of the discussion on here.

 

[class387]

There you go, I've corrected your post for you

That is the surprise to me, doesn't really matter what the incident is but you would expect they have a plan for "Line blocked at Welwyn North"

I know you don't know how long it will be blocked for, but something along the lines of.

Brighton - Cambridge - Divert via Hertford
Horsham - Peterborough - Divert via Hertford
London - Cambridge - Divert via Hertford
London - Kings Lynn - Divert via Hertford
London - Hertford - Rail Replacement Buses

At the moment you simply don't see evidence of this and they just stack trains up.

Trouble is even with that. Hertford diversion adds about 20 minutes on. So you soon run out of trains or have massive reactionary delays

It would probably be better to terminate the Cambridge slow at Welwyn and stop the faster services at the villages, so that Hatfield/WGC retain a fast service (more Hatfield/WGC passengers use this service than Cambridge ones). Then use the paths to give 2tph Moorgate to Hertford North.

 

[Old School]

They can try by changing their company culture - stop lying to us to kick the can down the road e.g. Mr Cheshire asserting that they have enough drivers and then proceed to cancel scores of trains due to 'shortage of train crew'. This is really p***ing off passengers.

They need to clearly and truthfully tell us:
- When things are going to be rectified, including milestones (when are services going to be introduced to the interim timetable, when can we expect the full service to run).
- What they are doing to resolve issues, e.g. are the drivers going through training, how are they addressing the air con issues on some trains, etc.
- Regular updates on progress.

Their communication is so poor to us plebs. We like to know what is going on behind the scenes. If the service is going to be crap until December, just tell us. Once it's out there, the anger will soon dissipate, so long as you're also telling us what's going on behind the scenes to fix this mess.

Mind you, the above wouldn't be possible if they were making things up as they go along, which I fear may be the case.

At present there are no GN Drivers Route Learning

 

[Aictos]

It would probably be better to terminate the Cambridge slow at Welwyn and stop the faster services at the villages, so that Hatfield/WGC retain a fast service (more Hatfield/WGC passengers use this service than Cambridge ones). Then use the paths to give 2tph Moorgate to Hertford North.

Only problems with your proposal is:

1. There's only so many Electric trains allowed on the loop at any one time due to infrastructure limits at the last count I believe it was 18.

2. Regardless of this, FCC and GTR don't see having even a hourly service as important indeed the diverted services including these of LNER, Hull Trains and GC all take priority over the Hertford Loop's own services.

This is despite asking senior management a few years ago why a basic hourly service couldn't be run on the Loop and was told it was impossible!

We need to separate out the longer term planning and concept behind the Thameslink Programme from the recent/current implementation of it by GTR. It's very clear that GTR have made a mess of the latter but some folks seem a bit too keen to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and take the current problems to mean that the overall scheme can't ever work. As far as I know we don't have enough evidence to say that yet.

And yes there are fundamental difficulties in running an intensive through service, which inevitably have consequences for reliability. But that intensive through service operation isn't just being done for a laugh - it's part of an attempt to increase capacity where there are few alternatives - this seems to get forgotten in some of the discussion on here.

Indeed, I'm not apologising for the disaster that GTR have made the Thameslink Programme to be however in my post I was merely pointing out the errors in the OP's rant that were wrong.

I'm in no way defending GTR's management of the project as with their industry partners the DfT and Network Rail they have screwed up the current implementation of it however like you have rightly explained "We need to separate out the longer term planning and concept behind the Thameslink Programme from the recent/current implementation of it by GTR"

 

[The Box Photter]

Only problems with your proposal is:

1. There's only so many Electric trains allowed on the loop at any one time due to infrastructure limits at the last count I believe it was 18.

2. Regardless of this, FCC and GTR don't see having even a hourly service as important indeed the diverted services including these of LNER, Hull Trains and GC all take priority over the Hertford Loop's own services.

This is despite asking senior management a few years ago why a basic hourly service couldn't be run on the Loop and was told it was impossible!



Indeed, I'm not apologising for the disaster that GTR have made the Thameslink Programme to be however in my post I was merely pointing out the errors in the OP's rant that were wrong.

I'm in no way defending GTR's management of the project as with their industry partners the DfT and Network Rail they have screwed up the current implementation of it however like you have rightly explained "We need to separate out the longer term planning and concept behind the Thameslink Programme from the recent/current implementation of it by GTR"

First and foremost, GTR and DfT and NR need to deliver a consistent, reliable service for their existing passengers who rely on their trains to get to and from work. That means maintaining the existing calling patterns that have developed over the years around which their "customers" have planned their careers, housing choices, families and private lives. They shouldn't have pulled the rug from beneath their feet by implementing the "Railplan2020" disaster in a vain attempt to offer "new journey possibilities". It strikes me that the GTR and DfT planners, as well as many posters on this forum see the Thameslink network as just a really big train set, which is designed to allow them to see how many train per hour they can cram through and already overstretched section of two-track railway between St Pancras & Blackfriars.

It hasn't worked, and seems to have little possibility of working in the immediate and medium term. If DfT and Grayling had any balls, they'd order an immediate return to the pre 20 May timetable, without trains running off the GN through the Canal Tunnels. Don't tell me that it isn't possible to do that, if it was possible on 15 May, it should be possible to revert now. And by revert to pre 20 May timetable, I mean that the Southern timetable should be reverted as well. Passengers seemed pretty happy with it so there was no need to change.

Then, the Canal Tunnels should be filled with concrete and GN services should be split from Thameslink immediately, returning to Kings Cross/Moorgate.

Railplan 2020 is the answer to a question no passengers were asking. At the end of the day, the railway should be run for the the benefit of the passengers, not the operators.

 

[Hadders]

GTR are still deleting trains from the schedule. Looking at the interim timetable there should be departures from Kings Cross to Stevenage at the following times this evening:

22:11 arrives 22:37
22:41 arrives 23:07
23:02 arrives 23:43
23:22 arrives 23:48
00:02 arrives 00:43
00:32 arrives 01:13
01:32 arrives 02:21

The journey planners for today show no 22:41 or 00:02. Disgraceful that they're still just deleting trains. There is no mention of these cancellations in the service disruption section of their website. I haven't checked trains before 22:00 but I strongly suspect there are further cancellations.

 

[class387]

Only problems with your proposal is:

1. There's only so many Electric trains allowed on the loop at any one time due to infrastructure limits at the last count I believe it was 18.

2. Regardless of this, FCC and GTR don't see having even a hourly service as important indeed the diverted services including these of LNER, Hull Trains and GC all take priority over the Hertford Loop's own services.

This is despite asking senior management a few years ago why a basic hourly service couldn't be run on the Loop and was told it was impossible!

Why would there be a problem replacing two diverted Cambridge services (which would instead operate on the ECML) with two Hertford loop stoppers?

 

[Aictos]

Seeing as @The Box Photter likes to rant and rave I'm going to answer their rants in a calm manner and explain why they're wrong...

It strikes me that the GTR and DfT planners, as well as many posters on this forum see the Thameslink network as just a really big train set

As to your view that GTR/Network Rail planners (DfT planners have nothing to do with this apart from the ORR approving paths) as well as many posters on this forum seeing the Thameslink network as a giant train set, that is childish for example you only have to see posts by @Failed Unit and @bramling amongst others to see that this isn't the case.

they can cram through and already overstretched section of two-track railway between St Pancras & Blackfriars.

The section between Kentish Town and Blackfriars is being resignalled which means more train can run frequently though this area, without this resignalling this is not possible.

It hasn't worked, and seems to have little possibility of working in the immediate and medium term. If DfT and Grayling had any balls, they'd order an immediate return to the pre 20 May timetable

It seems to have escaped your attention that this isn't that easy as it means other TOCs which interface with GTR will have to have their timetables amended too such as Greater Anglia, London Overground, South West Trains, LNER, Cross Country, South Western Railway, Great Western Railway, Hull Trains, Grand Central, South Eastern, London North Western Railway etc as they have planned their own timetables around the proposed GTR one.

And by revert to pre 20 May timetable, I mean that the Southern timetable should be reverted as well. Passengers seemed pretty happy with it so there was no need to change.

Actually you're wrong here, if you took the time to read the posts from the Southern users here, the one part of the GTR timetable that has actually meant a better service is the Southern one as the majority here seem to be contend with the new timetable over the old one so why change just because a TL passenger doesn't like the TL timetable?

Then, the Canal Tunnels should be filled with concrete

Really? Again you seem to miss out the rather important issue that Kings Cross and London Bridge are far more busier then they were a few years ago and in order to increase terminating platform capacity, they've had to run services though the Canal Tunnels in order to do this.

GN services should be split from Thameslink immediately, returning to Kings Cross/Moorgate.

Again, see my last reply above your quote on why this shouldn't happen.

Railplan 2020 is the answer to a question no passengers were asking. At the end of the day, the railway should be run for the the benefit of the passengers, not the operators.

Again, Railplan 2020 was about increasing the number of services that passengers can use but at the same time increase the terminating capacity at Kings Cross and London Bridge by running more though services, the fact that it introduced new journey opportunities seems to be lost on you and your ranting.

For the record yet again, I am NOT defending GTR's handling of the timetable just pointing out the issues that are at hand without having to resort to ranting and raving.

Why would there be a problem replacing two diverted Cambridge services (which would instead operate on the ECML) with two Hertford loop stoppers?

Because whenever the **** hits the fan, the Hertford Loop services take a battering as they don't have any priority at all and the powers to be see the Cambridge services as more important then running a stopping service.

As well as the fact that the Loop has slower linespeeds it also adds 20 mins to the journey if you're diverted even more if you're following a stopper which is why there is no interest in running stoppers when they're using the Loop to divert services.

 

[hwl]

If DfT and Grayling had any balls, they'd order an immediate return to the pre 20 May timetable, without trains running off the GN through the Canal Tunnels. Don't tell me that it isn't possible to do that, if it was possible on 15 May, it should be possible to revert now. And by revert to pre 20 May timetable, I mean that the Southern timetable should be reverted as well. Passengers seemed pretty happy with it so there was no need to change.

Then, the Canal Tunnels should be filled with concrete and GN services should be split from Thameslink immediately, returning to Kings Cross/Moorgate.

You seem to be missing the key point that GTR didn't have the drivers trained to deliver the Timetable and are therefore blaming the timetable rather than GTR's failure to train sufficient drivers to make it work.

Most Southern users especially metro users vastly prefer the new timetable so don't want to revert.

 

[Aictos]

You seem to be missing the key point that GTR didn't have the drivers trained to deliver the Timetable and are therefore blaming the timetable rather than GTR's failure to train sufficient drivers to make it work.

Exactly, both Southern and First Capital Connect knew years ago before GTR even took over that there would be a issue with driver training yet the DfT wasn't prepared to deal with it, the fact that GTR didn't have enough drivers trained to deliver this timetable only made it worse.

Most Southern users especially metro users vastly prefer the new timetable so don't want to revert.

Exactly, this is what I'm been seeing from posts here that the majority of Southern users actually prefer the new timetable so why would they want to revert to the old timetable?

 

[Hadders]

What should happen in my opinion is the Great Northern side should nrevert to the old timetable. This only interfaces with LNER, HT and GC north of London and there were very few amendments in May so this shouldn’t be impossible.

What would be more difficult is finding a suitable place for the southern portion of through trains to terminate but there are so few through services running them this shouldn’t really be a huge issue.

The southern timetable, which many seem to prefer couldnthen remain as is.

This would then give GTR/DfT the opportunity to reassess the position and complete driver training etc before reintroducing through services from the GN side.

 

[ComUtoR]

The section between Kentish Town and Blackfriars is being resignalled which means more train can run frequently though this area, without this resignalling this is not possible.

I assume you are referring to ATO rather than any re signalling ?

Actually you're wrong here, if you took the time to read the posts from the Southern users here, the one part of the GTR timetable that has actually meant a better service is the Southern one as the majority here seem to be contend with the new timetable over the old one so why change just because a TL passenger doesn't like the TL timetable?

I love it. As a passenger I have only used it on a couple of occasions but the new routes are really advantageous.

Really? Again you seem to miss out the rather important issue that Kings Cross and London Bridge are far more busier then they were a few years ago and in order to increase terminating platform capacity, they've had to run services though the Canal Tunnels in order to do this.

You only need to stand on the platforms at London Bridge and through the core to St Pancras to see how popular these services are.

 

[transplanted]

one thing that really sums up GTR's attitude towards customers and providing information is the lack of updates to the service map in the interior of the 700s. I had to explain to confused tourists not understanding that the train does in fact stop at London Bridge after Blackfriars... after another local gave them the wrong information based on the map.

 

[class387]

Because whenever the **** hits the fan, the Hertford Loop services take a battering as they don't have any priority at all and the powers to be see the Cambridge services as more important then running a stopping service.

As well as the fact that the Loop has slower linespeeds it also adds 20 mins to the journey if you're diverted even more if you're following a stopper which is why there is no interest in running stoppers when they're using the Loop to divert services.

It's not about the Hertford Loop stoppers, it is that if everything is diverted via Hertford, Potters Bar, Hatfield and WGC lose their service to King's Cross, which you could preserve by running the Kings Cross - Cambridge stoppers up to Welwyn. Other than the Cambs villages (which could be served by stopping the Kings Lynn services), the main customers for these trains are south of Stevenage.

 

[Aictos]

I assume you are referring to ATO rather than any re signalling ?

Actually the Core was re-signalled with four-aspect signalling as part of the Thameslink Programme Key Output 1, the ATO signalling is just the next step up as it states in this March 2017 article by Rail Engineer which clearly states the process taken to resignal the Core which can be read here.

I love it. As a passenger I have only used it on a couple of occasions but the new routes are really advantageous.

I've yet to use the though GN services but the new routes as you have said are advantageous being direct although you can still get to your destination quicker by using non direct services.

You only need to stand on the platforms at London Bridge and through the core to St Pancras to see how popular these services are.

Again I've not used the Core for a while but I can remember when I did that the services were very busy so it's no surprise that these services are equally as popular.

 

[Failed Unit]

Actually the Core was re-signalled with four-aspect signalling as part of the Thameslink Programme Key Output 1, the ATO signalling is just the next step up as it states in this March 2017 article by Rail Engineer which clearly states the process taken to resignal the Core which can be read here.



I've yet to use the though GN services but the new routes as you have said are advantageous being direct although you can still get to your destination quicker by using non direct services.



Again I've not used the Core for a while but I can remember when I did that the services were very busy so it's no surprise that these services are equally as popular.

I have used the core services from Finsbury Park. Even with the poor service we have now a lot of people get on there. Not as many as a Moorgate but still a sizeable number.

I think about ½ train leaves at St Pancras so even with the current poor offering lots of demand exists.

I normally northbound change at St Pancras and cross the road. But that is mainly to get a seat.

If the full timetable is implemented be interesting how the 9xxx codes will help as everything will be a 9xxx

Believe me demand exists and people are looking forward to the full implementation in WGC. (Maybe not everyone). However the anger is more that now we are getting a worse service than previously with no benefits.

The Sunday Moorgate services should be 4tph now. Existing trains. Existing infrastructure. Was it ever going to work when it depends on volunteers? It would be nice to see some milestones from GTR. But it seems other posters are saying no training is taking place. So don’t expect any improvement soon. I assume the training isn’t happening for the reasons stated in other posts.

 

[Aictos]

The Sunday Moorgate services should be 4tph now.

According to the original plans, Welwyn Garden City was meant to be 4tph off peak Monday to Saturday and Hertford North was meant to be 6tph off peak Monday to Saturday however like all things that GTR and Network Rail have done, both have been descoped.

 

[NorthKent1989]

You can’t change the entire timetable since that would be difficult, however perhaps look at individual routes and lines, would that work? I think The situation has to be reassessed.

 

[BRX]

The other thing I'd say is that reading this thread can perhaps give a somewhat distorted impression of how bad things are. It seems that most of the problems are confined to the ex GN routes. I don't use those; the routes I mainly use are sutton loop through the core, and sevenoaks services. Over the past couple of weeks I've not had any cancelled or significantly late trains. I'd almost say it's been better than it was before the timetable change, on the sutton loop (which has long been a victim of through-running issues). Although it has to be acknowleged that the current timetable has a few services taken out of it.

I'm currently on a Rainham train, which reading this thread I'd got the impression was a nearly completely disfunctional service. So far so good though.

I don't doubt that some people especially to the north of London are genuinely having a nightmare with the new timetable. But it does seem that on *most* of the network things have settled down somewhat now, and we are no longer in a situation where there's widespread chaos everywhere.

 

[Hadders]

Things as far from settled on the Great Northern side. If anything it's getting worse.

 

[Failed Unit]

The other thing I'd say is that reading this thread can perhaps give a somewhat distorted impression of how bad things are. It seems that most of the problems are confined to the ex GN routes. I don't use those; the routes I mainly use are sutton loop through the core, and sevenoaks services. Over the past couple of weeks I've not had any cancelled or significantly late trains. I'd almost say it's been better than it was before the timetable change, on the sutton loop (which has long been a victim of through-running issues). Although it has to be acknowleged that the current timetable has a few services taken out of it.

I'm currently on a Rainham train, which reading this thread I'd got the impression was a nearly completely disfunctional service. So far so good though.

I don't doubt that some people especially to the north of London are genuinely having a nightmare with the new timetable. But it does seem that on *most* of the network things have settled down somewhat now, and we are no longer in a situation where there's widespread chaos everywhere.

I think that is probably fair. Ex GN routes are bad, (although Gatwick Express) is often worse.

The GTR figures kept looking good by the Kent coast and Southern mainline.

Unfortunately as it is a small % of services, coupled with GTRs we don’t care attitude- I suspect ex GN routes have a lots of pain to come.

Saying that weekends are shocking in all areas. Bedford has had a serious reduction in capacity at weekends.

 

[Surreytraveller]

And by revert to pre 20 May timetable, I mean that the Southern timetable should be reverted as well. Passengers seemed pretty happy with it so there was no need to change.

That wouldn't work. They'd need to retrain all the Southern drivers on the routes they don't sign anymore. They'd need to employ station staff to do the splitting and attaching they don't do anymore, and to despatch the 12 car trains they don't despatch anymore